NATION

PASSWORD

On Diplomacy and "Preconditions"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11474
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

On Diplomacy and "Preconditions"

Postby Page » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:26 am

Source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/b ... conditions

When Biden was asked during the most recent debate whether he would conduct diplomacy with Kim Jong Un without preconditions, he said that he would not. For those of you old enough to remember the 2008 Democratic primary, this question was posed back then too in the debates between HRC and Obama. Then candidate Obama stated that he did not believe in requiring preconditions to even start conducting diplomacy with countries like Iran and North Korea. Clinton used this against him in dramatic ads about a President answering a phone call in the middle of the night. The conservative media brought this up every single day from then on until Election Day, "Obama would meet with Iran without preconditions!"

Is this notion of preconditions for simply talking reasonable?

I say it is not. One, America would never tolerate this the other way around, if for example Putin said "I won't negotiate with you until you close a few military bases in the Baltic." Or if Iran gave America a list of sanctions that must be lifted to even come to the table.

Negotiating is about each side trying to get something they want. "We won't negotiate until you give us what we want" is absurd. Nothing is lost by having a meeting. I think it is incredibly harmful to hold diplomacy itself hostage to submission, and that "preconditions" becoming normalized will only increase the chance of war breaking out.
I'm either a Bernie Bro, a Russian troll, or a snowflake SJW depending on who you ask.

Free Chelsea Manning, free all asylum seekers, free all people jailed for victimless drug crimes.

KEIN MENSCH IST ILLEGAL

User avatar
The Two Jerseys
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13589
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Father Knows Best State

Postby The Two Jerseys » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:15 am

Depends. Preconditions like "stop committing genocide" and "release one of the hostages first" are sending a message that "X is unacceptable to us, if you don't agree then negotiations are a waste of time" or asking for a show of good faith. Preconditions like "give us lots of money first" are just a shakedown.
"The Duke of Texas" is too formal for regular use. Just call me "Your Grace".
"If I would like to watch goodness, sanity, God and logic being fucked I would watch Japanese porn." -Nightkill the Emperor
"This thread makes me wish I was a moron so that I wouldn't have to comprehend how stupid the topic is." -The Empire of Pretantia
Head of State: HM King Louis
Head of Government: The Rt. Hon. James O'Dell MP, Prime Minister
Ambassador to the World Assembly: HE Sir John Ross "J.R." Ewing II, Bt.
Join Excalibur Squadron. We're Commandos who fly Spitfires. Chicks dig Commandos who fly Spitfires.

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11474
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:54 am

The Two Jerseys wrote:Depends. Preconditions like "stop committing genocide" and "release one of the hostages first" are sending a message that "X is unacceptable to us, if you don't agree then negotiations are a waste of time" or asking for a show of good faith. Preconditions like "give us lots of money first" are just a shakedown.


Fair point, although I've yet to see a real world example. In 2008, McCain never once elaborated on a single precondition he would want from Iran and North Korea despite using this topic against Obama every day. Somehow, I don't see Biden actually specifying any preconditions either nor do I think he will even be asked during the debates.

I'm pretty sure if a candidate was asked with no warning and had no time to prepare an answer, they would be tongue tied.
I'm either a Bernie Bro, a Russian troll, or a snowflake SJW depending on who you ask.

Free Chelsea Manning, free all asylum seekers, free all people jailed for victimless drug crimes.

KEIN MENSCH IST ILLEGAL

User avatar
Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54817
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:35 am

I fully support Biden on this. In fact it’s one of the things I really really do not like what Trump did. I still believe that Trump never should have visited the leadership of NK
Male, Titoist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, give me any good Irish, Canadian, or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11474
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:38 am

Thermodolia wrote:I fully support Biden on this. In fact it’s one of the things I really really do not like what Trump did. I still believe that Trump never should have visited the leadership of NK


What is lost by that visit if no concessions are made?
I'm either a Bernie Bro, a Russian troll, or a snowflake SJW depending on who you ask.

Free Chelsea Manning, free all asylum seekers, free all people jailed for victimless drug crimes.

KEIN MENSCH IST ILLEGAL

User avatar
Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54817
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:53 am

Page wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:I fully support Biden on this. In fact it’s one of the things I really really do not like what Trump did. I still believe that Trump never should have visited the leadership of NK


What is lost by that visit if no concessions are made?

There shouldn’t have been a visit. There shouldn’t have been anything that legitimatized the NK regime
Male, Titoist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, give me any good Irish, Canadian, or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

User avatar
Rojava Free State
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9208
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:15 am

I'm sure biden forgot that the former president said that, just like he forgot the former president's name.
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
hey holmes, guess what time it is? No, it's not 8:22 in the morning, it's modelo time foo

User avatar
Rojava Free State
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9208
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:17 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Page wrote:
What is lost by that visit if no concessions are made?

There shouldn’t have been a visit. There shouldn’t have been anything that legitimatized the NK regime


Trump is cool with all dictators so long as they aren't friends with Obama and don't insult him. He's fine with rodrigo dutuerte, a former school shooter who held two jobs as mayor of Davao City and part time Serial killer. This is a guy who murders children. If Trump is friends with someone as deranged as him, I'm not surprised he would have a strange bromance with kim
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
hey holmes, guess what time it is? No, it's not 8:22 in the morning, it's modelo time foo

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22455
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:51 am

Requesting preconditions is itself a type of diplomacy. That said, one shouldn't put preconditions on simply talking.
Christian Anarcho-Monarchist. If you're confused about how that works, send me a TG and I'll explain it. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
"We were the Leopards, the Lions, those who'll take our place will be little jackals, hyenas; and the whole lot of us, Leopards, jackals, and sheep, we'll all go on thinking ourselves the salt of the earth."
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22455
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:52 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Page wrote:
What is lost by that visit if no concessions are made?

There shouldn’t have been a visit. There shouldn’t have been anything that legitimatized the NK regime

The North Korean regime is legitimate regardless of whether Trump has a photo op moment with its head. States, by definition, are legitimate.
Last edited by United Muscovite Nations on Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Christian Anarcho-Monarchist. If you're confused about how that works, send me a TG and I'll explain it. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
"We were the Leopards, the Lions, those who'll take our place will be little jackals, hyenas; and the whole lot of us, Leopards, jackals, and sheep, we'll all go on thinking ourselves the salt of the earth."
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
Cappuccina
Minister
 
Posts: 2905
Founded: Jun 05, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Cappuccina » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:04 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:There shouldn’t have been a visit. There shouldn’t have been anything that legitimatized the NK regime

The North Korean regime is legitimate regardless of whether Trump has a photo op moment with its head. States, by definition, are legitimate.

I agree with this, the "let's ignore" NK hasn't worked. All it's done is make them increasingly aggressive.
Muslim, Female, Trans, Not white..... oppression points x4!!!!
"Latinx" isn't a real word. :^)
Automobile & Music fan!!! ^_^
Also, an everything 1980s fan!!!
Left/Right: -5.25
SocLib/Auth: 2.46

Apparently, I'm an INFP

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11474
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:32 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Page wrote:
What is lost by that visit if no concessions are made?

There shouldn’t have been a visit. There shouldn’t have been anything that legitimatized the NK regime


They are as legitimate as any other regime. The Kims have ruled over the country for 70 years. The regime is absolutely terrible but you have to acknowledge their existence and work with them. They have a huge army and nukes and they aren't going away any time soon.
I'm either a Bernie Bro, a Russian troll, or a snowflake SJW depending on who you ask.

Free Chelsea Manning, free all asylum seekers, free all people jailed for victimless drug crimes.

KEIN MENSCH IST ILLEGAL

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11474
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:34 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:There shouldn’t have been a visit. There shouldn’t have been anything that legitimatized the NK regime


Trump is cool with all dictators so long as they aren't friends with Obama and don't insult him. He's fine with rodrigo dutuerte, a former school shooter who held two jobs as mayor of Davao City and part time Serial killer. This is a guy who murders children. If Trump is friends with someone as deranged as him, I'm not surprised he would have a strange bromance with kim


Every American President makes friends with a few dozen brutal dictators, although usually for opportunistic reasons. But Trump sometimes seems to genuinely like these people.
I'm either a Bernie Bro, a Russian troll, or a snowflake SJW depending on who you ask.

Free Chelsea Manning, free all asylum seekers, free all people jailed for victimless drug crimes.

KEIN MENSCH IST ILLEGAL

User avatar
New Paine
Diplomat
 
Posts: 747
Founded: Dec 23, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby New Paine » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:37 am

Playing nice with North Korea has showed not to work. We need to play hardball with them.
Proud American. 27. Gay. Center-right. Agnostic-Atheist. Gamer.
Formerly “South Paine” I got locked out of my account.
More about me

User avatar
Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54817
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:37 am

Page wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:There shouldn’t have been a visit. There shouldn’t have been anything that legitimatized the NK regime


They are as legitimate as any other regime. The Kims have ruled over the country for 70 years. The regime is absolutely terrible but you have to acknowledge their existence and work with them. They have a huge army and nukes and they aren't going away any time soon.

I don’t care. We shouldn’t have attempted to legitimize their regime. Just in the same way we never should have opened relations with the PRC.
Male, Titoist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, give me any good Irish, Canadian, or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 100328
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:39 am

I agree with obama and trump on this one.

You talk to everyone, even if the only thing you have to say is " stop what you are doing or I am going to hit you with a big stick", you always speak
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11474
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:40 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Page wrote:
They are as legitimate as any other regime. The Kims have ruled over the country for 70 years. The regime is absolutely terrible but you have to acknowledge their existence and work with them. They have a huge army and nukes and they aren't going away any time soon.

I don’t care. We shouldn’t have attempted to legitimize their regime. Just in the same way we never should have opened relations with the PRC.


It is not economically nor politically viable to cut off all contact with the PRC. Even the USA and USSR had diplomatic relations and trade in the Cold War.
I'm either a Bernie Bro, a Russian troll, or a snowflake SJW depending on who you ask.

Free Chelsea Manning, free all asylum seekers, free all people jailed for victimless drug crimes.

KEIN MENSCH IST ILLEGAL

User avatar
US-SSR
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1514
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby US-SSR » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:41 am

So-called "preconditions" before a negotiation are actually negotiations in and of themselves. "We won't talk to North Korea about what we might do if it stopped making nukes unless and until it..." stops testing missiles or whatever. The art is to make eventual negotiations so attractive to the other party that it agrees to stop the awful thing it is doing.

Negotiations, diplomatic or otherwise, are indeed about each side getting something it wants. The failure of this administration's North Korea policy is that we gave Kim most of what he wanted in return for absolutely nothing; the failure of this administration's Iran policy is that we walked out of a good deal without offering a better one. Both failures can be traced back to the man who thinks he knows more about diplomacy than his diplomats and more about war than the people who actually fought instead of feigning a few bone spurs to avoid the draft. See link in the sig.
Last edited by US-SSR on Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Page
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11474
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:44 am

US-SSR wrote:So-called "preconditions" before a negotiation are actually negotiations in and of themselves. "We won't talk to North Korea about what we might do if it stopped making nukes unless and until it..." stops testing missiles or whatever. The art is to make eventual negotiations so attractive to the other party that it agrees to stop the awful thing it is doing.

Negotiations, diplomatic or otherwise, are indeed about each side getting something it wants. The failure of this administration's North Korea policy is that we gave Kim most of what he wanted in return for absolutely nothing; the failure of this administration's Iran policy is that we walked out of a good deal without offering a better one. Both failures can be traced back to the man who thinks he knows more about diplomacy than his diplomats and more about war than the people who actually fought instead of feigning a few bone spurs to avoid the draft. See link in the sig.


North Korea didn't get a whole lot from Trump. Almost all the sanctions are still in place.
I'm either a Bernie Bro, a Russian troll, or a snowflake SJW depending on who you ask.

Free Chelsea Manning, free all asylum seekers, free all people jailed for victimless drug crimes.

KEIN MENSCH IST ILLEGAL

User avatar
New Paine
Diplomat
 
Posts: 747
Founded: Dec 23, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby New Paine » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:47 am

Page wrote:
US-SSR wrote:So-called "preconditions" before a negotiation are actually negotiations in and of themselves. "We won't talk to North Korea about what we might do if it stopped making nukes unless and until it..." stops testing missiles or whatever. The art is to make eventual negotiations so attractive to the other party that it agrees to stop the awful thing it is doing.

Negotiations, diplomatic or otherwise, are indeed about each side getting something it wants. The failure of this administration's North Korea policy is that we gave Kim most of what he wanted in return for absolutely nothing; the failure of this administration's Iran policy is that we walked out of a good deal without offering a better one. Both failures can be traced back to the man who thinks he knows more about diplomacy than his diplomats and more about war than the people who actually fought instead of feigning a few bone spurs to avoid the draft. See link in the sig.


North Korea didn't get a whole lot from Trump. Almost all the sanctions are still in place.


They did get a sense of legitimacy from all those photo ops. Kim and Trump have the same mindset that they need approval and to have their ass kissed.
Proud American. 27. Gay. Center-right. Agnostic-Atheist. Gamer.
Formerly “South Paine” I got locked out of my account.
More about me

User avatar
The of Korea
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 133
Founded: Jul 29, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The of Korea » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:48 am

New Paine wrote:
Page wrote:
North Korea didn't get a whole lot from Trump. Almost all the sanctions are still in place.


They did get a sense of legitimacy from all those photo ops. Kim and Trump have the same mindset that they need approval and to have their ass kissed.

didnt Kim cancel the negotiations because Trump was just doing them purely for show?

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22455
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:52 am

The of Korea wrote:
New Paine wrote:
They did get a sense of legitimacy from all those photo ops. Kim and Trump have the same mindset that they need approval and to have their ass kissed.

didnt Kim cancel the negotiations because Trump was just doing them purely for show?

Yes. The idea that the North Koreans need external legitimacy is ignorant of North Korea. What they want is the means to maintain their internal flamboyance, and that means money and arms. The outside world is only a threat to North Korea in the sense that it can interfere with that internal flamboyance, but the North Koreans live in a past age mindset where they don't really care what the rest of the world thinks of them, they don't care that the Americans don't consider them legitimate.
Christian Anarcho-Monarchist. If you're confused about how that works, send me a TG and I'll explain it. Just completed studies in History and International Relations. Asexual with sex-revulsion.
"We were the Leopards, the Lions, those who'll take our place will be little jackals, hyenas; and the whole lot of us, Leopards, jackals, and sheep, we'll all go on thinking ourselves the salt of the earth."
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

User avatar
Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54817
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:54 am

Page wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:I don’t care. We shouldn’t have attempted to legitimize their regime. Just in the same way we never should have opened relations with the PRC.


It is not economically nor politically viable to cut off all contact with the PRC. Even the USA and USSR had diplomatic relations and trade in the Cold War.

No im saying that we never should have legitimatized the PRC in the first place. Same thing here
Male, Titoist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, give me any good Irish, Canadian, or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
Click for Da Funies
Click Here for RP Info Embassy Program
Ambassadors to the WA:
Ambassador to the GA Jon Æthr
Ambassador to the SC Eve Šanœ

RIP Dya

User avatar
US-SSR
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1514
Founded: Aug 02, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby US-SSR » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:59 am

The of Korea wrote:
New Paine wrote:
They did get a sense of legitimacy from all those photo ops. Kim and Trump have the same mindset that they need approval and to have their ass kissed.

didnt Kim cancel the negotiations because Trump was just doing them purely for show?


Kim canceled the negotiations, which included working-level talks, because he knows he can play Trump for a sucker. He got everything he wanted the last time in return for less than nothing. Why should he negotiate in good faith with any other US official?

User avatar
New Paine
Diplomat
 
Posts: 747
Founded: Dec 23, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby New Paine » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:05 pm

US-SSR wrote:
The of Korea wrote:didnt Kim cancel the negotiations because Trump was just doing them purely for show?


Kim canceled the negotiations, which included working-level talks, because he knows he can play Trump for a sucker. He got everything he wanted the last time in return for less than nothing. Why should he negotiate in good faith with any other US official?


Indeed, Trump can be played like a fiddle by foreign leaders if they give them good deals on real estate and/or kiss his ass and make him look good.
Last edited by New Paine on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Proud American. 27. Gay. Center-right. Agnostic-Atheist. Gamer.
Formerly “South Paine” I got locked out of my account.
More about me

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Greenwichian Arcadia, Hanafuridake, Heloin, Idzequitch, Jetan, Neanderthaland, Vistulange, Washington Resistance Army, Zhongshanville

Advertisement

Remove ads