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Prostitution and presumed double standards

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Which do you consider the most analogous to prostitution?

1. Monogamous relationships.
4
4%
2. Sugar daddy/sugar mama.
60
59%
3. Child support law.
2
2%
4. Bars and drinks.
2
2%
5. Pornography.
31
31%
6. Sex strikes.
2
2%
 
Total votes : 101

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Prostitution and presumed double standards

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:14 am

The objections to prostitution generally seem to come in one of two categories.

A: That it's wrong to have casual sex. (Even though casual sex is perfectly legal.)

B: That it's wrong to pay for sex at all. (Even though gold-digging, sugar mamas, sugar daddies, etc... are perfectly legal.) This often comes with "guilt by association" reasoning in the form of naming individual examples of prostitutes who were coerced (which isn't inherent in the job) or were desperate (which applies to many other jobs that are perfectly legal) but even if guilt by association were valid, this still doesn't establish whether the problem is the act itself or the criminalization, and therefore, for the purposes of this thread, it doesn't count.

For context, let's just establish one reality. If you're caught hiring a prostitute, you go straight to jail, you do not pass go, you do not collect $200.

In the United States, this ends in a notoriously brutal prison sentence, likely complete with beatings and rapes from other prisoners, followed swiftly by release into a society that neither hires criminals nor allows them welfare. Indignation to johns must be pretty intense among voters to drive such a response.

Nordic countries' criminalization of prostitution, though I disagree with it, is (relatively) less drastic. It doesn't warrant as high a standard of explanation, as it's more rehabilitation-centric and less deterrence-centric.

So when you consider the full context of the extent of prostitution's criminalization, and the fact that Nordic countries are generally more progressive, it's reasonable to presume it is about B to a greater extent; and A to a lesser extent; in Nordic countries than the United States.

This suggests contempt for casual sex to be an irreplaceable ingredient in the severity of indignation at prostitution. And yet, casual sex won't even net you a community service sentence. So without further ado, I want to present 6 things that I will compare and contrast with prostitution such that you can vote on which you think is more morally analogous to it, or less.

1. In any sexual relationship; monogamous or casual; it is nearly impossible for both partners to be of precisely equal sex drive. If one partner is more horny than the other, and the other is only willing to accommodate them in exchange for other favours, and these favours could in other contexts be exchanged for money, is that analogous to prostitution? (Margaret Cho has made this comparison too.)

2. More specifically, there are dating arrangements where people overtly admit it's about the money. (Sugar mama, sugar daddy, etc.) So this establishes a clearer intent to exchange sex directly for money. Is it the monogamous nature of the relationship that prevents it from being counted as prostitution?

3. Child support law establishes a debt; often an overwhelming one; on whichever of a woman's sex partners happened to be the one to impregnate them. Why wouldn't paying for sex, which pools the resources of everyone who has sex, be more morally defensible than just allowing everyone who took the exact same risk to not have to contribute a dime?

4. At bars, drinks are often offered with the implicit arrangement of having sex with the person who offered them a drink later on. Is this analogous to prostitution as well?

5. Porn is compared to prostitution by Family Guy. Is this loophole about the fact that it's on tape and presumably has less potential for abusive situations, or just the average voter's willingness to let them get away with it if they can watch?

EDIT: I completely forgot to mention a sixth.

6. Sex strikes. In the context of sex strikes, women claim to refuse to have sex with men until certain demands are met. (Presumably, males are not cut out for the reverse.) Is this not essentially logically equivalent to "I will have sex in exchange for these favours"?
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:17 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:At bars, drinks are often offered with the implicit arrangement of having sex with the person who offered them a drink later on.

No. That isn't the case at all.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:18 am

The New California Republic wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:At bars, drinks are often offered with the implicit arrangement of having sex with the person who offered them a drink later on.

No. That isn't the case at all.

I didn't say "exclusively." But yes, that is the reputation bars as a whole have. Why else do you more often see men buy women drinks than the reverse?
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.
Kowani wrote:You don’t get to call it Chinese industry when American corporations are the ones outsourcing their labor.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:20 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:No. That isn't the case at all.

I didn't say "exclusively." But yes, that is the reputation bars as a whole have. Why else do you more often see men buy women drinks than the reverse?

Not even "often".
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Postby Agarntrop » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:21 am

Prostitution's legal in my country so this isn't really an issue we experience anymore.
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Postby Purpelia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:23 am

Agarntrop wrote:Prostitution's legal in my country so this isn't really an issue we experience anymore.

Even where it's legal it's always looked down on. Like, ask your self this question.
You are a 20something year old college student and you want to earn some quick money. And it's not something serious either. You just need some extra cash to go on a holiday or buy a new gaming console or something similarly banal.
So what you need is a part time job. Now, you can go and spend a month flipping burgers or working a cash register or something similar or you can spend that same time having sex for money. One of those choices (the sex, duh) is clearly absolutely superior in every way. But is it the one would you pick? And why? I bet you any money that it's not the sex.
Last edited by Purpelia on Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ors Might » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:31 am

Purpelia wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:Prostitution's legal in my country so this isn't really an issue we experience anymore.

Even where it's legal it's always looked down on. Like, ask your self this question.
You are a 20something year old college student and you want to earn some quick money. And it's not something serious either. You just need some extra cash to go on a holiday or buy a new gaming console or something similarly banal.
So what you need is a part time job. Now, you can go and spend a month flipping burgers or working a cash register or something similar or you can spend that same time having sex for money. One of those choices (the sex, duh) is clearly absolutely superior in every way. But is it the one would you pick? And why? I bet you any money that it's not the sex.

I mean, if it were an option that I wasn’t being forced into? I’d give sex work a try.
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The East Marches II
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Postby The East Marches II » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:35 am

The New California Republic wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:I didn't say "exclusively." But yes, that is the reputation bars as a whole have. Why else do you more often see men buy women drinks than the reverse?

Not even "often".


Maybe I need to go wherever you are going. That isn't the case stateside.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:36 am

The East Marches II wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Not even "often".


Maybe I need to go wherever you are going. That isn't the case stateside.

Count me in on that. I turn 21 in a few months and I ain’t here to spend money.
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Postby Che Triumphant » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:42 am

There’s also very much a class aspect to it as well, porn is completely legal because there’s a lot of monied interests behind it, sex work on the street is illegal because legalizing it would cutoff money from private prisons, and this is the case even though porn stars and sex workers on the streets fundamentally have the same job, why is one illegal and the other isn’t? Because there are monied interests behind one and not the other, or rather there are monied interests in keeping street work illegal

The sort of people who do street work also have no power in government, they are generally poor, and they generally do sex work to get by, very few members of Congress have ever had a similar experience, very few have ever been in a situation where sex work seemed like a good option, and generally when you have bills like SESTA-FOSTA meant to curb sexual work, sex workers are not asked about how this would affect them, and it affected them like all laws meant to curb sex work have, it didn’t make them get a new line of work, it didn’t open any opportunities for that, the only thing it did is make their job more dangerous, and thousands of sex workers have died because of that

We need regulation, sex workers need unions and protections like all workers, and we need to fight for a world where people don’t feel the need to have sex for money

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Postby Ors Might » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:43 am

Che Triumphant wrote:There’s also very much a class aspect to it as well, porn is completely legal because there’s a lot of monied interests behind it, sex work on the street is illegal because legalizing it would cutoff money from private prisons, and this is the case even though porn stars and sex workers on the streets fundamentally have the same job, why is one illegal and the other isn’t? Because there are monied interests behind one and not the other, or rather there are monied interests in keeping street work illegal

The sort of people who do street work also have no power in government, they are generally poor, and they generally do sex work to get by, very few members of Congress have ever had a similar experience, very few have ever been in a situation where sex work seemed like a good option, and generally when you have bills like SESTA-FOSTA meant to curb sexual work, sex workers are not asked about how this would affect them, and it affected them like all laws meant to curb sex work have, it didn’t make them get a new line of work, it didn’t open any opportunities for that, the only thing it did is make their job more dangerous, and thousands of sex workers have died because of that

We need regulation, sex workers need unions and protections like all workers, and we need to fight for a world where people don’t feel the need to have sex for money

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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:44 am

Yeah there are plenty of double standards for prostitution. But even if there weren’t, I think the legalization of prostitution is necessary if your concern is the well-being and improvement of society.

Prostitution, even without a licensing system, has been known to lead to less sexual assault and sexually transmitted diseases. If you do Instill a licensing sentence, it even can help curtail drug abuse, although you will have less people out in the open so it may also make some prostitutes less safe.
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:45 am

And if for no other reason, free markets free markets free market blah blah blah.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:45 am

The East Marches II wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Not even "often".


Maybe I need to go wherever you are going. That isn't the case stateside.

Sorry, I meant to say "more often hear of men buying women drinks than the reverse." I'm not claiming to speak from personal experience; but such experience would not be a representative sample anyway so the point is moot.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.
Kowani wrote:You don’t get to call it Chinese industry when American corporations are the ones outsourcing their labor.

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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:58 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:1. In any sexual relationship; monogamous or casual; it is nearly impossible for both partners to be of precisely equal sex drive. If one partner is more horny than the other, and the other is only willing to accommodate them in exchange for other favours, and these favours could in other contexts be exchanged for money, is that analogous to prostitution? (Margaret Cho has made this comparison too.)

A favor isn't money.
4. At bars, drinks are often offered with the implicit arrangement of having sex with the person who offered them a drink later on. Is this analogous to prostitution as well?

No. A drink isn't payment.

6. Sex strikes. In the context of sex strikes, women claim to refuse to have sex with men until certain demands are met. (Presumably, males are not cut out for the reverse.) Is this not essentially logically equivalent to "I will have sex in exchange for these favours"?

No.
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:03 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:At bars, drinks are often offered with the implicit arrangement of having sex with the person who offered them a drink later on.


It doesn't matter how nice of a guy you think you are. Buying a woman a drink does not mean she has consented to sex with you.
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:04 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:1. In any sexual relationship; monogamous or casual; it is nearly impossible for both partners to be of precisely equal sex drive. If one partner is more horny than the other, and the other is only willing to accommodate them in exchange for other favours, and these favours could in other contexts be exchanged for money, is that analogous to prostitution? (Margaret Cho has made this comparison too.)

A favor isn't money.
4. At bars, drinks are often offered with the implicit arrangement of having sex with the person who offered them a drink later on. Is this analogous to prostitution as well?

No. A drink isn't payment.

6. Sex strikes. In the context of sex strikes, women claim to refuse to have sex with men until certain demands are met. (Presumably, males are not cut out for the reverse.) Is this not essentially logically equivalent to "I will have sex in exchange for these favours"?

No.

What’s intrinsically worse about the change of money as opposed to favors?
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:07 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:A favor isn't money.

No. A drink isn't payment.

No.

What’s intrinsically worse about the change of money as opposed to favors?

Prostitution is a job. Jobs don't get paid in favors.
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:08 am

The most similar thing to prostitution is tax evasion.
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:10 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:What’s intrinsically worse about the change of money as opposed to favors?

Prostitution is a job. Jobs don't get paid in favors.

Sure they do. You're exchanging money for favours.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:12 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Prostitution is a job. Jobs don't get paid in favors.

Sure they do. You're exchanging money for favours.

If it's your job then it's not a favor, it's a service.
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:14 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:What’s intrinsically worse about the change of money as opposed to favors?

Prostitution is a job. Jobs don't get paid in favors.

That wasn’t what I asked. I said what’s worse about getting money as opposed to getting favors. Maybe I miss read your view on the subject though
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:16 am

VoVoDoCo wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:Prostitution is a job. Jobs don't get paid in favors.

That wasn’t what I asked. I said what’s worse about getting money as opposed to getting favors. Maybe I miss read your view on the subject though

Maybe, I wasn't explicit that I don't have a problem with prostitution.
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:16 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Sure they do. You're exchanging money for favours.

If it's your job then it's not a favor, it's a service.

If they're the same things people in other contexts get paid to do, they may as well be the same thing.
Iridencia wrote:Inept people always decry pragmatic choices as "cowardly" because they know they're not smart enough to play on that level.
Kowani wrote:You don’t get to call it Chinese industry when American corporations are the ones outsourcing their labor.

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Postby The Rurkovich Imperium » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:17 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:No. That isn't the case at all.

I didn't say "exclusively." But yes, that is the reputation bars as a whole have. Why else do you more often see men buy women drinks than the reverse?

Is there actual proof of this happening to a degree where it's statistically significant?
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