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[DEFEATED] Repeal 'Civilian Aircraft Accord' (author Bitely)

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Virtual States
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Posts: 5
Founded: Feb 14, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Virtual States » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:58 pm

IC: The appropriate World Assembly office receives a secure electronic message. It reads:

"The Union of Virtual States votes against this repeal. While we are glad to see that World Assembly legislation is being dutifully examined for potential problems, we do not consider the problems raised by this repeal to have a significant chance of occurring in times of peace or of war.

World Assembly Liaison Office, Department of Foreign Relations, National Government of the Union of Virtual States"

OOC: I think there's an important question about mass telegrams that hasn't been asked yet. Can you exclude certain regions from receiving a mass telegram when you write it? If so, regions asking people not to send their members mass telegrams is more defensible, because complying with that request doesn't mean you can't send mass telegrams. Even having consequences for noncompliance like the ROVA does is more defensible, because people who send them anyway can safely be assumed to either not have read the request or just didn't care. If that can't be done, though, then I think asking people not to send mass telegrams is an overreach. In order to comply, a player can't send any mass telegrams at all, which locks them out of a feature of the site that the developers intended for them to have access to, and no region really has the right to do that to nations outside of that region. If noncompliance is met with negative action by the region, that's discouraging people from using the feature, and if the negative action matters to enough people, I think that's probably going to cause a chilling effect where fewer people use the feature. Of course, if the negative action doesn't matter, there's much less to worry about, but then people will send mass telegrams anyway.

This isn't to say I think the ROVA was written to be an unfair exercise of power over nations outside of Ten Thousand Islands, after all, as I said in character above, I like to assume good faith. It's fair to not want useless messages cluttering your inbox. But I do think it's unnecessary, given that people can indeed opt out of WA campaign telegrams on their own. If I'm right about it having a chilling effect, then it's even worse because that effect isn't even for the sake of a necessary approach. I think a better approach would be for Ten Thousand Islands and any other regions that request that their members not be sent mass telegrams to remind their members that they can opt out of those telegrams and maybe write a short guide on how to do it. Their members' inboxes are less cluttered, and people can still send mass telegrams, so everybody wins.

Also, is there a list of "canonical" World Assembly departments/offices/etc somewhere I can look over? I'd like to be more specific than "the appropriate World Assembly office" when I'm writing in character.

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:39 am

Virtual States wrote:OOC: I think there's an important question about mass telegrams that hasn't been asked yet. Can you exclude certain regions from receiving a mass telegram when you write it?

(OOC: Yes, that’s quite easy to do.
Also, is there a list of "canonical" World Assembly departments/offices/etc somewhere I can look over? I'd like to be more specific than "the appropriate World Assembly office" when I'm writing in character.

There’s a list of committees, but that’s it.)

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:18 am

Maowi wrote:
Sethtekia wrote:Sethtekia is in favor for this to be repealed. As Sethtekia employs a Zero Tolerance Airspace edict. Any aircraft in our airspace without expressed permission is to be shot down regardless. And any nation that enters our airspace to aid said aircraft will be destroyed as well.

"Ambassador, in that case, Sethtekia is already in non-compliance with extant World Assembly legislation and will be whether or not this resolution is repealed."

OOC: Clause 7 subclauses of that resolution mean that closed airspace is closed airspace, domestic aircraft excluded, and nothing forces a nation to allow ANY foreign aircraft into their airspace.
Last edited by Araraukar on Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Maowi
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Postby Maowi » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:12 am

Araraukar wrote:
Maowi wrote:"Ambassador, in that case, Sethtekia is already in non-compliance with extant World Assembly legislation and will be whether or not this resolution is repealed."

OOC: Clause 7 subclauses of that resolution mean that closed airspace is closed airspace, domestic aircraft excluded, and nothing forces a nation to allow ANY foreign aircraft into their airspace.

OOC: Where are you seeing that?? The only exceptions it makes are for situations where "there are necessary practical reasons for doing so, such as limited capacity or quarantine, or in times of war or economic sanctions." That doesn't allow nations to blanket ban the entry of foreign aircraft.
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Verdant Haven
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Postby Verdant Haven » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:28 am

"This repeal attempt is offensive to basic decency, long-standing norms of civil society, and appears motivated by nothing more than jingoistic paranoia and xenophobia born of pure delusion. The targeted resolution defines in its very first clause that an aircraft engaging in national-security-related activities is excluded from the resolution's protections. As such, if a nation has evidence to support a supposition that a distress call is a false flag designed to cause harm to that nation, the aircraft giving that false call is already excluded from protections under the targeted resolution. If a nation does not have evidence to support that supposition, then on what basis besides unreasoning cruelty or malicious intent would that nation decline to offer assistance in a declared emergency?"

"Quite beside the above, I further must wonder what danger the author of this repeal attempt thinks they will be placed in by providing assistance to a distressed aircraft. The provision of basic radio communications, ATC vectors, and METAR is a zero-risk activity for the providing nation. There is no requirement for aerial interception, which is not a means of providing assistance and would not be covered by the targeted resolution, nor is there any requirement for the deployment of ground-based forces, either civil or military, to the site of a potential aircraft loss occurring outside of one's territorial jurisdiction. I am at a loss to find any conceivable way in which the proposed repeal reflects the reality of the targeted resolution, and believe the repeal attempt to have been written from a position of complete ignorance of longstanding civil aviation operating procedures."



OOC: The targeted resolution is basically mirroring the globally-established real-life agreements with regard to civil aviation, and as somebody who spent years working in an aviation-adjacent field, this repeal attempt makes me sick.

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The Great Nation of Liberty
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Founded: Nov 08, 2018
Ex-Nation

On the Resolution to Repeal the 'Civilian Aircraft Accord'

Postby The Great Nation of Liberty » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:35 am

"A decision has been made by us, the citizens of the Great Nation of Liberty. We believe it is best, for the safety of all the peoples of different nations if the Civilian Aircraft Accord is not repealed, It is our duty as members of a nation and society, to further cooperation and safety for all people. And so, I think I speak for all Libertyians when I say, we endorse this resolution."

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WayNeacTia
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Postby WayNeacTia » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:59 am

Happy that people have seen this dumpster fire for what it is and are smashing it into the pavement.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:02 am

Wayneactia wrote:Happy that people have seen this dumpster fire for what it is and are smashing it into the pavement.

"Oh noes muh 'eleet' vote rigging!1111!!!!eleventwo!!11"
/s
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Superbunny
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Founded: May 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Superbunny » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:21 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Happy that people have seen this dumpster fire for what it is and are smashing it into the pavement.

"Oh noes muh 'eleet' vote rigging!1111!!!!eleventwo!!11"
/s


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Potted Plants United
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Postby Potted Plants United » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:58 am

Maowi wrote:OOC: Where are you seeing that?? The only exceptions it makes are for situations where "there are necessary practical reasons for doing so, such as limited capacity or quarantine, or in times of war or economic sanctions." That doesn't allow nations to blanket ban the entry of foreign aircraft.

OOC: Limited capacity. For a system designed only for domestic traffic and use, anyone extra is over capacity. Also, if airspace or parts of it are closed off for all planes, including domestic, and that's made abundantly clear such as via radio communications, then any plane flying into closed airspace can be shot down for that violation alone, because otherwise that resolution would have been wrong strength entirely.

Superbunny wrote:OOC: I feel like saying "WA Elite" in this forum should qualify as trolling.

OOC: When used without any other content, it is. I have the mod decision on it somewhere around here. Think of similar function to how trollnaming works; if you just quote someone's post and say "troll", then that doesn't add anything to the discussion and is only aimed to anger someone. But beyond that, if they aren't talking about superdelegates' voting power, they're best ignored entirely.
Last edited by Potted Plants United on Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Maowi
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Postby Maowi » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:19 pm

Potted Plants United wrote:
Maowi wrote:OOC: Where are you seeing that?? The only exceptions it makes are for situations where "there are necessary practical reasons for doing so, such as limited capacity or quarantine, or in times of war or economic sanctions." That doesn't allow nations to blanket ban the entry of foreign aircraft.

OOC: Limited capacity. For a system designed only for domestic traffic and use, anyone extra is over capacity. Also, if airspace or parts of it are closed off for all planes, including domestic, and that's made abundantly clear such as via radio communications, then any plane flying into closed airspace can be shot down for that violation alone, because otherwise that resolution would have been wrong strength entirely.

OOC: Got it, makes sense. I guess a nation isolationist enough would explicitly make sure all its airports were too small for others to use them.
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Superbunny
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Ex-Nation

Postby Superbunny » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:02 am

Repeal "Civilian Aircraft Accord" was defeated 10,810 votes to 3,695.


Rest in pieces.
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Grays Harbor
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Postby Grays Harbor » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:51 am

Superbunny wrote:
Repeal "Civilian Aircraft Accord" was defeated 10,810 votes to 3,695.


Rest in pieces.


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Saturna1ia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Saturna1ia » Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:15 pm

Grays Harbor wrote:OOC: Gloating is unwelcome here. Please do not do so.


It's not as though this failed Repeal should have been Illegal in the first place or anything. Not at all..
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:31 pm

Grays Harbor wrote:
Superbunny wrote:
Rest in pieces.

OOC: Gloating is unwelcome here. Please do not do so.

Oh fucking please. Every single voting thread going years back has some post or another responding with satisfaction to the voting result.
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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:11 pm

Saturna1ia wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:OOC: Gloating is unwelcome here. Please do not do so.


It's not as though this failed Repeal should have been Illegal in the first place or anything. Not at all..

(OOC: It shouldn’t have been illegal. The arguments, though sufficiently weak as to have failed at vote, did make sense and rely on a colourable interpretation of the resolution.)
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Grays Harbor
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Postby Grays Harbor » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:31 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:OOC: Gloating is unwelcome here. Please do not do so.

Oh fucking please. Every single voting thread going years back has some post or another responding with satisfaction to the voting result.

There is a difference between expressing satisfaction and outright gloating. I would think with all your experience in the GA you could tell the difference.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:38 pm

Saturna1ia wrote:
Grays Harbor wrote:OOC: Gloating is unwelcome here. Please do not do so.


It's not as though this failed Repeal should have been Illegal in the first place or anything. Not at all..

OOC: based on what rule?

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Jebslund
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Postby Jebslund » Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:50 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Saturna1ia wrote:
It's not as though this failed Repeal should have been Illegal in the first place or anything. Not at all..

OOC: based on what rule?

Honest Mistake. Many of the arguments require a portion of the target to be acted upon in bad faith, or argue that things were meant by the clauses that weren't there.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:06 pm

Jebslund wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: based on what rule?

Honest Mistake. Many of the arguments require a portion of the target to be acted upon in bad faith, or argue that things were meant by the clauses that weren't there.

OOC: But none of those misconstrued the target, and under the colorable interpretation test, all were colorable. Shitty, but colorable.

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:12 pm

Grays Harbor wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Oh fucking please. Every single voting thread going years back has some post or another responding with satisfaction to the voting result.

There is a difference between expressing satisfaction and outright gloating. I would think with all your experience in the GA you could tell the difference.

I would think that with all your experience in the GA, you would know that the two are one and the same among most the regulars.
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WayNeacTia
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Ex-Nation

Postby WayNeacTia » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:00 pm

Grays Harbor wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Oh fucking please. Every single voting thread going years back has some post or another responding with satisfaction to the voting result.

There is a difference between expressing satisfaction and outright gloating. I would think with all your experience in the GA you could tell the difference.

Yet degrading people and proposals in the Silly/Illegal thread isn't the same thing at all?

Superbunny wrote:
Repeal "Civilian Aircraft Accord" was defeated 10,810 votes to 3,695.


Rest in pieces.

IMO it received way too many for votes in the first place. Bitley tried to buy a resolution once again and fell on his yet again. Justice at its finest.
Last edited by WayNeacTia on Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac

wait

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