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The Demonization of Liberal Economic Categories

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.
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Bhutantan
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Aug 16, 2019
Ex-Nation

The Demonization of Liberal Economic Categories

Postby Bhutantan » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:24 am

This is an improvement suggestion of the WA categories description for the more economic liberal that aren't authoritarian-in-nature nations.
Let me explain:

The various economic liberal (also known as capitalist) categories have a description that makes the specific nation that just recently switched category to feel guilty for making its economy more open, for example, if I made the switch to the Capitalizt category and that means my country has high social freedom and also economic one, making it a very openly free and prospering nation, well it seems not so much:

The Capitalizt category description is: "Citizens enjoy some of the most opulent lifestyles in the region, unless they are unemployed or working-class, in which case they are variously starving to death or crippled by easily preventable diseases."

Well, who exactly decided that my nation makes the poor crumble to death and be starving, just because I opened the markets?
Not every libertarian nation is without welfare funding, high income gap between the rich and the poor and without public healthcare, actually there are various nations that have this category but they are prospering nations with extremely high HDI and lifespan, which means that the poor that are the majority of population, are not starving to death. Yeah, I realized that the writer of the WA categories wanted to make this one feel comic, and that NationStates isn't a serious nation simulator, just for us to have fun, although we spend a lot of time on making the issues work for us and what we want.
But that's just the only one, right? No.

Capitalist Bordello category, which is about having high political and high economical freedoms, suffers from the same description:
"Citizens are effectively ruled by a group of massive corporations, who run for political office and provide their well-off citizens with world-class goods and services. Their poorer citizens, however, are mostly starving to death while being urged to go out and get real jobs. The populace has reasonably extensive civil rights, although these are mostly aimed at allowing them to buy whatever they like."

Citizens with high political freedom, can actually protest and vote against this kind of government, especially if the poor are starving to death without no help.
Yes, it also some of the comical nature of the WA categories, that are meant to exaggerate our management of the utopia nation we worked so hard, and then we get this shame description, but it's just a game, why take it so hard, every category has something that makes it horrible, right? right? No.

Let's try their counterparts on the more restrictive economic policies, like the liberal democratic socialists or the Scandinavian liberal paradise,
the description for the liberal demsoc, which is the counter economic category of Capitalist Bordello is:

"Citizens love a good election, and the government gives them plenty of them. Universities tend to be full of students debating the merits of various civil and political rights, while businesses are tightly regulated and the wealthy viewed with suspicion. "

Oh what can I tell! Heaven upon earth, there is nothing wrong with the nation of that category it seems, everyone are happy and prosperous, not single word about suffering and the best part is that as socialists they are "suspicious of businesses", but everything with the economy is just fine.

Wait, you thought this is good, just wait to see the counterpart of the Capitalizt category, that is named Scandinavian paradise (reminder that Scandinavian countries have actually very pro-business approach), but that obviously comic, and the description is just paradise:

"Citizens enjoy extensive civil rights and enjoy a level of social equality free from the usual accompanying government corruption. "

Well, it seems NationStates has decided that the Scandinavian paradise category is plain perfect. They enjoy magnificent rights, have social equality and even they decided that nations of this category have no government corruption?!.

Yes, now I'm sure that there is discrimination, and having your country limiting business to an inch, makes your country utopia (that is part of the description of the left-wing utopia if you wondered). Having high economic freedom makes your people suffer, having low makes everything prosperous :unsure: , and even though the economic management of nations is badly mentioned in these libertarian categories, the socialist categories see no such description, like bad economic management because of lack of business (reminder they are limited in inches) and people starving.

in conclusion, What I ask, is not to penalize the more economic restrictive categories' description, but to change the high economic ones, like capitalizt and bordello to have way more positive, speaking about great rights of businesses and people.
I believe I'm not the only one asking for it, and there are plenty of nations that made their country a paradise, but belong to the wrong category.
I appreciate the NationStates community and management, its transparency and of course this great game as whole. :)

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Pooshland
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 61
Founded: Jul 07, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Pooshland » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:30 am

There is similiar problem with "Anarchy" WA category, in which description states: "Citizens live in a state of perpetual fear, as a complete breakdown of social order has led to the rise of order through biker gangs.". - Which is not always true, obviously. I am happy that someone pointed out that problem.
The Federation of Pooshland
MT democratic nation with a bit of PMT
Laissez faire, laissez passer, laissez aller


This nation is mostly based on my RL opinions. And no, Pooshland is not a nation runned by a corporation.
We use most of our NS stats.
Embassy | Overview | Newest factbook | Cool quotes | Misconceptions about Pooshland
I am not anarchocapitalist.
Saying that every laissez-faire capitalist is anarchocapitalist is like saying that every socialist is a communist.
My political compass: Economic axis: 8,90 Social axis: -4,5
I'm not English native speaker, so it is very possible that I made some mistakes somewhere. I apologise for that.

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Lillorainen
Senator
 
Posts: 4153
Founded: Apr 17, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Lillorainen » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:31 am

Oii,
Maybe, "Liberal Paradise" and "Utopia" etc., as well as the descriptions thereof on a nation's main page, can also be interpreted in a more ironic/sarcastic way, given the low economic freedom? ;) So like "[Nation] is totally utopian and awesome and cool, with all its equality and stuff!" actually meaning "[Nation] is an anti-business hellscape I just try to find a euphemism for!"?
Last edited by Lillorainen on Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Since Lillorainen's geography is currently being overhauled a 'tiny' bit, most information on it posted before December 12, 2018, is not entirely reliable anymore. Until there's a new, proper factfile, everything you might need to know can be found here. Thank you. #RetconOfDoom (Very late update, 2020/08/30 - it's still going on ...)

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Vivolkha
Diplomat
 
Posts: 836
Founded: Oct 15, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vivolkha » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:37 am

I see no problem with how it stands right now - it fits within the general humorous/ironic tone of the game.
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Gandoor
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Founded: Sep 23, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Gandoor » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:52 am

wow guys a satirical game uses exaggerated descriptions of your nation's government category
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Pooshland
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 61
Founded: Jul 07, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Pooshland » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:55 am

Gandoor wrote:wow guys a satirical game uses exaggerated descriptions of your nation's government category


Bhutantan's point was that not every WA category has that much exaggerated description. It's a minor problem, but that's true imo.
The Federation of Pooshland
MT democratic nation with a bit of PMT
Laissez faire, laissez passer, laissez aller


This nation is mostly based on my RL opinions. And no, Pooshland is not a nation runned by a corporation.
We use most of our NS stats.
Embassy | Overview | Newest factbook | Cool quotes | Misconceptions about Pooshland
I am not anarchocapitalist.
Saying that every laissez-faire capitalist is anarchocapitalist is like saying that every socialist is a communist.
My political compass: Economic axis: 8,90 Social axis: -4,5
I'm not English native speaker, so it is very possible that I made some mistakes somewhere. I apologise for that.

User avatar
Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 422
Founded: Aug 03, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:56 am

I concur, this game has leftist bias in NStats even though I'm a leftist myself
TEMPORARILY USING NSTATS DUE TO LACK OF FACTBOOKS, BUT I'M JUDGING YOU (F7ERS) BY YOUR FACTBOOKS.
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Munkcestrian Republic
Minister
 
Posts: 2398
Founded: May 01, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Munkcestrian Republic » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:56 am

The game has to have a certain amount of realism, sorry.
if you like my posts please make sure to downvote my factbooks.
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"lmao child you come into MY region"
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views. i cannot believe i have to clarify this

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Deacarsia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1380
Founded: May 12, 2019
Right-wing Utopia

The Demonization of Liberal Economic Categories

Postby Deacarsia » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:57 am

Bhutantan wrote:This is an improvement suggestion of the WA categories description for the more economic liberal that aren't authoritarian-in-nature nations.
Let me explain:

The various economic liberal (also known as capitalist) categories have a description that makes the specific nation that just recently switched category to feel guilty for making its economy more open, for example, if I made the switch to the Capitalizt category and that means my country has high social freedom and also economic one, making it a very openly free and prospering nation, well it seems not so much:

The Capitalizt category description is: "Citizens enjoy some of the most opulent lifestyles in the region, unless they are unemployed or working-class, in which case they are variously starving to death or crippled by easily preventable diseases."

Well, who exactly decided that my nation makes the poor crumble to death and be starving, just because I opened the markets?
Not every libertarian nation is without welfare funding, high income gap between the rich and the poor and without public healthcare, actually there are various nations that have this category but they are prospering nations with extremely high HDI and lifespan, which means that the poor that are the majority of population, are not starving to death. Yeah, I realized that the writer of the WA categories wanted to make this one feel comic, and that NationStates isn't a serious nation simulator, just for us to have fun, although we spend a lot of time on making the issues work for us and what we want.
But that's just the only one, right? No.

Capitalist Bordello category, which is about having high political and high economical freedoms, suffers from the same description:
"Citizens are effectively ruled by a group of massive corporations, who run for political office and provide their well-off citizens with world-class goods and services. Their poorer citizens, however, are mostly starving to death while being urged to go out and get real jobs. The populace has reasonably extensive civil rights, although these are mostly aimed at allowing them to buy whatever they like."

Citizens with high political freedom, can actually protest and vote against this kind of government, especially if the poor are starving to death without no help.
Yes, it also some of the comical nature of the WA categories, that are meant to exaggerate our management of the utopia nation we worked so hard, and then we get this shame description, but it's just a game, why take it so hard, every category has something that makes it horrible, right? right? No.

Let's try their counterparts on the more restrictive economic policies, like the liberal democratic socialists or the Scandinavian liberal paradise,
the description for the liberal demsoc, which is the counter economic category of Capitalist Bordello is:

"Citizens love a good election, and the government gives them plenty of them. Universities tend to be full of students debating the merits of various civil and political rights, while businesses are tightly regulated and the wealthy viewed with suspicion. "

Oh what can I tell! Heaven upon earth, there is nothing wrong with the nation of that category it seems, everyone are happy and prosperous, not single word about suffering and the best part is that as socialists they are "suspicious of businesses", but everything with the economy is just fine.

Wait, you thought this is good, just wait to see the counterpart of the Capitalizt category, that is named Scandinavian paradise (reminder that Scandinavian countries have actually very pro-business approach), but that obviously comic, and the description is just paradise:

"Citizens enjoy extensive civil rights and enjoy a level of social equality free from the usual accompanying government corruption. "

Well, it seems NationStates has decided that the Scandinavian paradise category is plain perfect. They enjoy magnificent rights, have social equality and even they decided that nations of this category have no government corruption?!.

Yes, now I'm sure that there is discrimination, and having your country limiting business to an inch, makes your country utopia (that is part of the description of the left-wing utopia if you wondered). Having high economic freedom makes your people suffer, having low makes everything prosperous :unsure: , and even though the economic management of nations is badly mentioned in these libertarian categories, the socialist categories see no such description, like bad economic management because of lack of business (reminder they are limited in inches) and people starving.

in conclusion, What I ask, is not to penalize the more economic restrictive categories' description, but to change the high economic ones, like capitalizt and bordello to have way more positive, speaking about great rights of businesses and people.
I believe I'm not the only one asking for it, and there are plenty of nations that made their country a paradise, but belong to the wrong category.
I appreciate the NationStates community and management, its transparency and of course this great game as whole. :)

I wholeheartedly agree.
Visit vaticancatholic.com

Extra Ecclésiam nulla salus

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Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 422
Founded: Aug 03, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:58 am

Munkcestrian Republic wrote:The game has to have a certain amount of realism, sorry.

Then, Liberal Democratic Socialists should have a Venezuela-ish description
TEMPORARILY USING NSTATS DUE TO LACK OF FACTBOOKS, BUT I'M JUDGING YOU (F7ERS) BY YOUR FACTBOOKS.
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- Operations Director of the T.I.A., Hilbert Lachlan Silverwell

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Munkcestrian Republic
Minister
 
Posts: 2398
Founded: May 01, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Munkcestrian Republic » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:59 am

Deacarsia wrote:
Bhutantan wrote:This is an improvement suggestion of the WA categories description for the more economic liberal that aren't authoritarian-in-nature nations.
Let me explain:

The various economic liberal (also known as capitalist) categories have a description that makes the specific nation that just recently switched category to feel guilty for making its economy more open, for example, if I made the switch to the Capitalizt category and that means my country has high social freedom and also economic one, making it a very openly free and prospering nation, well it seems not so much:

The Capitalizt category description is: "Citizens enjoy some of the most opulent lifestyles in the region, unless they are unemployed or working-class, in which case they are variously starving to death or crippled by easily preventable diseases."

Well, who exactly decided that my nation makes the poor crumble to death and be starving, just because I opened the markets?
Not every libertarian nation is without welfare funding, high income gap between the rich and the poor and without public healthcare, actually there are various nations that have this category but they are prospering nations with extremely high HDI and lifespan, which means that the poor that are the majority of population, are not starving to death. Yeah, I realized that the writer of the WA categories wanted to make this one feel comic, and that NationStates isn't a serious nation simulator, just for us to have fun, although we spend a lot of time on making the issues work for us and what we want.
But that's just the only one, right? No.

Capitalist Bordello category, which is about having high political and high economical freedoms, suffers from the same description:
"Citizens are effectively ruled by a group of massive corporations, who run for political office and provide their well-off citizens with world-class goods and services. Their poorer citizens, however, are mostly starving to death while being urged to go out and get real jobs. The populace has reasonably extensive civil rights, although these are mostly aimed at allowing them to buy whatever they like."

Citizens with high political freedom, can actually protest and vote against this kind of government, especially if the poor are starving to death without no help.
Yes, it also some of the comical nature of the WA categories, that are meant to exaggerate our management of the utopia nation we worked so hard, and then we get this shame description, but it's just a game, why take it so hard, every category has something that makes it horrible, right? right? No.

Let's try their counterparts on the more restrictive economic policies, like the liberal democratic socialists or the Scandinavian liberal paradise,
the description for the liberal demsoc, which is the counter economic category of Capitalist Bordello is:

"Citizens love a good election, and the government gives them plenty of them. Universities tend to be full of students debating the merits of various civil and political rights, while businesses are tightly regulated and the wealthy viewed with suspicion. "

Oh what can I tell! Heaven upon earth, there is nothing wrong with the nation of that category it seems, everyone are happy and prosperous, not single word about suffering and the best part is that as socialists they are "suspicious of businesses", but everything with the economy is just fine.

Wait, you thought this is good, just wait to see the counterpart of the Capitalizt category, that is named Scandinavian paradise (reminder that Scandinavian countries have actually very pro-business approach), but that obviously comic, and the description is just paradise:

"Citizens enjoy extensive civil rights and enjoy a level of social equality free from the usual accompanying government corruption. "

Well, it seems NationStates has decided that the Scandinavian paradise category is plain perfect. They enjoy magnificent rights, have social equality and even they decided that nations of this category have no government corruption?!.

Yes, now I'm sure that there is discrimination, and having your country limiting business to an inch, makes your country utopia (that is part of the description of the left-wing utopia if you wondered). Having high economic freedom makes your people suffer, having low makes everything prosperous :unsure: , and even though the economic management of nations is badly mentioned in these libertarian categories, the socialist categories see no such description, like bad economic management because of lack of business (reminder they are limited in inches) and people starving.

in conclusion, What I ask, is not to penalize the more economic restrictive categories' description, but to change the high economic ones, like capitalizt and bordello to have way more positive, speaking about great rights of businesses and people.
I believe I'm not the only one asking for it, and there are plenty of nations that made their country a paradise, but belong to the wrong category.
I appreciate the NationStates community and management, its transparency and of course this great game as whole. :)

I wholeheartedly agree.

"we're being demonised!" says the right-wing UTOPIA :clap:
if you like my posts please make sure to downvote my factbooks.
DON'T CLICK
"lmao child you come into MY region"
no, this nation does not represent my
views. i cannot believe i have to clarify this

for RPers
my views explained

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Munkcestrian Republic
Minister
 
Posts: 2398
Founded: May 01, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Munkcestrian Republic » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:59 am

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:
Munkcestrian Republic wrote:The game has to have a certain amount of realism, sorry.

Then, Liberal Democratic Socialists should have a Venezuela-ish description

LOL and you say you're a leftist just a few posts before... maybe Corrupt Dictatorship should
if you like my posts please make sure to downvote my factbooks.
DON'T CLICK
"lmao child you come into MY region"
no, this nation does not represent my
views. i cannot believe i have to clarify this

for RPers
my views explained

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Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 422
Founded: Aug 03, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:01 am

Munkcestrian Republic wrote:
Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:Then, Liberal Democratic Socialists should have a Venezuela-ish description

LOL and you say you're a leftist just a few posts before... maybe Corrupt Dictatorship should

And no ideology, including mine, is flawless
TEMPORARILY USING NSTATS DUE TO LACK OF FACTBOOKS, BUT I'M JUDGING YOU (F7ERS) BY YOUR FACTBOOKS.
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Voxija
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1449
Founded: Jan 17, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Voxija » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:05 am

I know some people who would want the description for, say, Conservative Democracy to mention how moral the people are instead of emphasizing the low civil rights.
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Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 422
Founded: Aug 03, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:06 am

Voxija wrote:I know some people who would want the description for, say, Conservative Democracy to mention how moral the people are instead of emphasizing the low civil rights.

Moralistic Democracy as well
I want Iron Fist Socialists to become more negative in description, Libertarian Police State as well
TEMPORARILY USING NSTATS DUE TO LACK OF FACTBOOKS, BUT I'M JUDGING YOU (F7ERS) BY YOUR FACTBOOKS.
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- Operations Director of the T.I.A., Hilbert Lachlan Silverwell

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Federal Sol
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 43
Founded: May 24, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Federal Sol » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:12 am

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:
Voxija wrote:I know some people who would want the description for, say, Conservative Democracy to mention how moral the people are instead of emphasizing the low civil rights.

Moralistic Democracy as well
I want Iron Fist Socialists to become more negative in description, Libertarian Police State as well

As a Moralistic Democracy (and sometimes Conservative Democracy), I can confirm that most of us moralising-Bible-thumpers (which may not be all of us, but I believe I fit within this category) do indeed wish that our nation category were to emphasise our people's moral behavior and family-friendly beliefs.

But... I don't particularly mind the sarcasm... In fact, I find it kind of nice to see. It warms me heart to know that my people will chase out any liberal professor who tries to suggest that maybe religion shouldn't have such a huge say in my nation's affairs of state - seriously, I find actual joy in reading this description.

Honestly, while I agree with the OP's points and do partially wish that my nation could get a more positive description, I think it would be more reasonable (and snarkier) to just give more anti-capitalist nations' descriptions a much more sarcastic slant. I can't wait to see a Leftist Utopia's description contain a nice little "while the people are free to say and do whatever they want with their bodies, they will be regulated into an inch if they get into business and have their savings confiscated by men in black suits, requiring that their cash go to the nearest welfare reicipient."
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Deacarsia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1380
Founded: May 12, 2019
Right-wing Utopia

The Demonization of Liberal Economic Categories

Postby Deacarsia » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:29 pm

Munkcestrian Republic wrote:
Deacarsia wrote:I wholeheartedly agree.

"we're being demonized!" says the right-wing UTOPIA :clap:

So what? You are a corporate bordello!
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Merconitonitopia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1698
Founded: Jul 29, 2013
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Merconitonitopia » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:31 pm

Munkcestrian Republic wrote:"we're being demonised!" says the right-wing UTOPIA :clap:

I think the meaning of the name is that it would be considered a utopia by right-wingers.
At any rate, the description in the write-up isn't too generous:

...are free to succeed or fail in life on their own merits; the successful tend to enjoy an opulent (but moralistic) lifestyle, while the failures can be seen crowding out most jails.
Deacarsia wrote:
Munkcestrian Republic wrote:"we're being demonized!" says the right-wing UTOPIA :clap:

So what? You are a corporate bordello!

I have only now learned the meaning of this word. :p

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Aclion
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6249
Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:54 pm

It think it's the opposite problem. the game pulls punches with the non liberal economic categories. (and with inoffensive centrist democracy, but hey, what can you say for the nothing catagory?)
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Marxist Germany
Minister
 
Posts: 2171
Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Marxist Germany » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:28 am

These categories are the same since 2003 iirc. Some tweaking may be necessary but they are for the most part fine.
Author of GA#461, GA#470, GA#477, GA#481, GA#486 (co-author), and SC#295

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