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[Draft] Repeal "Liberate Confederation of Corrupt Dictators"

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Novae Romae
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[Draft] Repeal "Liberate Confederation of Corrupt Dictators"

Postby Novae Romae » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:08 pm

This is a proposal I've had on my mind for about a month or so, but only got around to it now. I understand it will be highly controversial but nevertheless here it is. I look forward to any and all suggestions.


The Security Council,

Understanding that the main intent of the liberation resolution was to limit the Confederation of Corrupt Dictators' influence.

Realizing that the opposite has been achieved, as the Confederation of Corrupt Dictators now wears the badge proudly, defeating the goal of the resolution.

Noting there are many factors limiting the effectiveness of the liberation, including the aforementioned and the following:
  1. The continued presence of an executive founder, Jocospor.
  2. The lack of an executive WA delegate position.
Further noting the limited effects of the resolution on the Confederation of Corrupt Dictators, chief among them being the lack of a successful invasion by any force since the resolution's passing.

Believing the repeal of this liberation will ultimately lead to more results than the original resolution.

Hereby repeals "Liberate Confederation of Corrupt Dictators"

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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:11 pm

I believe mention of "executive" is an R4(c) violation since it's game mechanics.
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Novae Romae
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Postby Novae Romae » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:14 pm

Kuriko wrote:I believe mention of "executive" is an R4(c) violation since it's game mechanics.


The original liberation uses the term executive founder in the clause:

Aware that Confederation of Corrupt Dictators currently has an Executive Founder;


And the liberation resolution itself here
Last edited by Novae Romae on Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:16 pm

Wonder how many repeal attempts it needs before it becomes the SC resolution with the most repeals voted on.
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Novae Romae
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Postby Novae Romae » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:18 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:Wonder how many repeal attempts it needs before it becomes the SC resolution with the most repeals voted on.


Either way the liberation has delivered no results other than helping the CCD in advertising. It would serve much better to be repealed.

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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:20 pm

Novae Romae wrote:
Kuriko wrote:I believe mention of "executive" is an R4(c) violation since it's game mechanics.


The original liberation uses the term executive founder in the clause:

Aware that Confederation of Corrupt Dictators currently has an Executive Founder;


And the liberation resolution itself here

Just because its been used before doesn't necessarily make it legal, since there's really no precedence here in the SC. I've flagged Ransium for his opinion though.
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Novae Romae
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Postby Novae Romae » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:25 pm

Kuriko wrote:
Novae Romae wrote:
The original liberation uses the term executive founder in the clause:

Aware that Confederation of Corrupt Dictators currently has an Executive Founder;


And the liberation resolution itself here

Just because its been used before doesn't necessarily make it legal, since there's really no precedence here in the SC. I've flagged Ransium for his opinion though.

Of course. It is always good to assure legality on the matter.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:26 pm

Novae Romae wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Wonder how many repeal attempts it needs before it becomes the SC resolution with the most repeals voted on.


Either way the liberation has delivered no results other than helping the CCD in advertising. It would serve much better to be repealed.

The observed rate of population change on the regional history graphs shows no visible change during the voting period of the Liberation, and the change on NE & KR that didn't have active recruiting at the time of their passage is indistinguishable from other regular population changes.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:28 pm

Kuriko wrote:
Novae Romae wrote:
The original liberation uses the term executive founder in the clause:

Aware that Confederation of Corrupt Dictators currently has an Executive Founder;


And the liberation resolution itself here

Just because its been used before doesn't necessarily make it legal, since there's really no precedence here in the SC. I've flagged Ransium for his opinion though.

I would think it would be legal since it's a term used by the game rather than a reference to the game as a game.

Rules wrote:1. Is the term something that could be applied to real-world nations. If yes, then fine. If no, see #2.
2. Is the term something that could be applied to the NationStates world? If yes, see point 3, if no, then what on earth are you writing about?
3. Is the term referring to NationStates as a game, or to the people behind the nations? If yes, it's not acceptable. If no, it's fine.
(. . .)
Any term included within NationStates the game - eg. passwords, World Factbook Entries, founders, eject, 'black helicopters transporting nations between regions' - legal (see here, here, here, here and here)
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:31 pm

On a related note, I'm curious why we care about regions gaining individuals who'd be willing to join a region based upon it being stated to habour fascists/nazis.
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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:32 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Just because its been used before doesn't necessarily make it legal, since there's really no precedence here in the SC. I've flagged Ransium for his opinion though.

I would think it would be legal since it's a term used by the game rather than a reference to the game as a game.

Rules wrote:1. Is the term something that could be applied to real-world nations. If yes, then fine. If no, see #2.
2. Is the term something that could be applied to the NationStates world? If yes, see point 3, if no, then what on earth are you writing about?
3. Is the term referring to NationStates as a game, or to the people behind the nations? If yes, it's not acceptable. If no, it's fine.
(. . .)
Any term included within NationStates the game - eg. passwords, World Factbook Entries, founders, eject, 'black helicopters transporting nations between regions' - legal (see here, here, here, here and here)

You never let me have fun :(
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Mallorea and Riva
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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:33 pm

Kuriko wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:I would think it would be legal since it's a term used by the game rather than a reference to the game as a game.


You never let me have fun :(

The good news is that it's not a ruling from me anymore.

The bad news is that I'm still right :hug:
Ideological Bulwark #253
Major of The Black Hawks
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
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Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:34 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Kuriko wrote:You never let me have fun :(

The good news is that it's not a ruling from me anymore.

The bad news is that I'm still right :hug:

I know you're right, I just wanted to see how far I could push it :bow:
Delegate of the 10000 Islands
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Novae Romae
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Postby Novae Romae » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:36 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:On a related note, I'm curious why we care about regions gaining individuals who'd be willing to join a region based upon it being stated to habour fascists/nazis.


I could very well say the same of the liberation proposal itself.

It says, in the 3rd and final clauses respectively:

Concerned that Confederation of Corrupt Dictators may serve to indoctrinate new nations into fascism and similar abhorrent ideologies;

Hoping to warn both Confederation of Corrupt Dictators and future regions from promoting fascism, other such ideologies, and blatant use of this Assembly as recruitment and ego-boosting;


The resolution itself in question seems very well concerned about these regions gaining individuals. It outright says it in the 3rd clause.

Kuriko wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:The good news is that it's not a ruling from me anymore.

The bad news is that I'm still right :hug:

I know you're right, I just wanted to see how far I could push it :bow:


I for one appreciate the concern for legality, I want this resolution to arrive at the Security Council fully compliant within the rules.
Last edited by Novae Romae on Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:48 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:
Kuriko wrote:You never let me have fun :(

The good news is that it's not a ruling from me anymore.

The bad news is that I'm still right :hug:


I’m with shark.

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Refuge Isle
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Postby Refuge Isle » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:58 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:On a related note, I'm curious why we care about regions gaining individuals who'd be willing to join a region based upon it being stated to habour fascists/nazis.

I think this is the heart of the fault with this repeal argument.

I'm highly skeptical of the reasoning that someone sees that a region has been liberated and becomes a Nazi immediately in defiance.

Believing the repeal of this liberation will ultimately lead to more results than the original resolution.

I'm not sure what the results are that you're expecting. The original resolution doesn't claim that it will reduce the region's nations or dissolve it through shame. It says it aims to warn the CCD and others like it of promoting fascism, presumably or else this sort of thing will happen to them, too.This liberation is a way of condemning the region while substantively letting them know that the SC is watching and waiting for Joc to CTE or be evaporated.

That's more useful for us to have than not.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:36 pm

Novae Romae wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:On a related note, I'm curious why we care about regions gaining individuals who'd be willing to join a region based upon it being stated to habour fascists/nazis.


I could very well say the same of the liberation proposal itself.

It says, in the 3rd and final clauses respectively:

Concerned that Confederation of Corrupt Dictators may serve to indoctrinate new nations into fascism and similar abhorrent ideologies;

Hoping to warn both Confederation of Corrupt Dictators and future regions from promoting fascism, other such ideologies, and blatant use of this Assembly as recruitment and ego-boosting;


The resolution itself in question seems very well concerned about these regions gaining individuals. It outright says it in the 3rd clause.

You mistake my point. The Liberation indicates the belief that nations should be warned of the nazis/faacists in the region, and that actively allowing them serves to allow those who are not to be potentially convinced that their bad ideas are good via regular contact. My point here is that I'm not sure what cares needs to be had of those who see that and think 'ah, looks like a good place to be,' as they'd presumably be interested in that sort of thing.
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Novae Romae
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Postby Novae Romae » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:06 am

Refuge Isle wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:On a related note, I'm curious why we care about regions gaining individuals who'd be willing to join a region based upon it being stated to habour fascists/nazis.

I think this is the heart of the fault with this repeal argument.

I'm highly skeptical of the reasoning that someone sees that a region has been liberated and becomes a Nazi immediately in defiance.

Believing the repeal of this liberation will ultimately lead to more results than the original resolution.

I'm not sure what the results are that you're expecting. The original resolution doesn't claim that it will reduce the region's nations or dissolve it through shame. It says it aims to warn the CCD and others like it of promoting fascism, presumably or else this sort of thing will happen to them, too.This liberation is a way of condemning the region while substantively letting them know that the SC is watching and waiting for Joc to CTE or be evaporated.

That's more useful for us to have than not.


As the liberation stands it serves two purposes, a warning statement to other regions which partake in fascist or nazi-related ideologies, and as a condemnation. For the former, this statement falls silent, as the regions meant to be warned still stand tall, and the CCD itself stands tall and defiant against this resolution. As for the latter, if this is meant as a condemnation, why was it not submitted as a condemnation? Why was it a liberation if it's only purpose wasn't to liberate, but rather, to condemn?

Lord Dominator wrote:
Novae Romae wrote:
I could very well say the same of the liberation proposal itself.

It says, in the 3rd and final clauses respectively:

Concerned that Confederation of Corrupt Dictators may serve to indoctrinate new nations into fascism and similar abhorrent ideologies;

Hoping to warn both Confederation of Corrupt Dictators and future regions from promoting fascism, other such ideologies, and blatant use of this Assembly as recruitment and ego-boosting;


The resolution itself in question seems very well concerned about these regions gaining individuals. It outright says it in the 3rd clause.

You mistake my point. The Liberation indicates the belief that nations should be warned of the nazis/faacists in the region, and that actively allowing them serves to allow those who are not to be potentially convinced that their bad ideas are good via regular contact. My point here is that I'm not sure what cares needs to be had of those who see that and think 'ah, looks like a good place to be,' as they'd presumably be interested in that sort of thing.


As the proposal is meant as a warning basically, against new players joining the CCD, why give them the liberation badge? For a minute, just compare the badges of liberation resolutions and condemnations. One is bright and colorful, the other is dark and scary, and I personally, near the first days of my founding more than a year ago now, thought it was a good badge! Think of it, it says the CCD is liberated, implying that any bad tendencies there are gone, that it's essentially fixed, when to everyone else, it isn't. But everyone else doesn't matter though, just the new players in question, and if that's what the new players are seeing, it's no wonder why the CCD continues to gain members as we speak. Repealing the badge gives the world a victory by eliminating the CCD's opportunity to use the colorful badge as advertisement and otherwise, and gives players less opportunity to be influenced by it, negatively that is.

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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:07 am

Bold of you all to assume the CCD is fascist.
==== The Tosdodan Kingdom of South Reinkalistan ====

We are the chosen of Tosdoda. We are all who are pure. Those who bend the knee, know your humility is noted; those who oppose us, know your degeneracy is unbearable.
A rather awful totalitarian religious ethnostate. Lead by the stoic Sarkos IV, this land is a nest of hatred for other peoples, and their bellicose stance will surely stir up trouble.
THEMES: MAIN || TENSION || WAR || VICTORY || DEFEAT

There are thankfully very few people who would agree with my nation's views, and I am one of them. South Reinkalistan in no way represents my political stance.

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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:17 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:Bold of you all to assume the CCD is fascist.

No assumption necessary: viewtopic.php?p=36478966#p36478966
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:31 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:Bold of you all to assume the CCD is fascist.

No assumption necessary: viewtopic.php?p=36478966#p36478966


Ah, yes. Some region tag from an invasion, and an IC telegram from years ago. OOC-ly, the CCD does not seek to indoctrinate anyone into fascism.
==== The Tosdodan Kingdom of South Reinkalistan ====

We are the chosen of Tosdoda. We are all who are pure. Those who bend the knee, know your humility is noted; those who oppose us, know your degeneracy is unbearable.
A rather awful totalitarian religious ethnostate. Lead by the stoic Sarkos IV, this land is a nest of hatred for other peoples, and their bellicose stance will surely stir up trouble.
THEMES: MAIN || TENSION || WAR || VICTORY || DEFEAT

There are thankfully very few people who would agree with my nation's views, and I am one of them. South Reinkalistan in no way represents my political stance.

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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:45 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:No assumption necessary: viewtopic.php?p=36478966#p36478966


Ah, yes. Some region tag from an invasion, and an IC telegram from years ago. OOC-ly, the CCD does not seek to indoctrinate anyone into fascism.

Ah yes, the expected dismissal of evidence. How very CCD.
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Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:27 am

The same ability to advertise is an option with a Condemnation. The use of a Liberation in this instance as in a couple others is that of the negative for of a Condemnation, with the presently hypothetical mechanical benefits of a Liberation.

Regarding CCD embracing it, the repeal attempts from or sponsored by them & the attempted Condemnation of me for passing it speak otherwise.
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Novae Romae
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Novae Romae » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:37 am

Lord Dominator wrote:The same ability to advertise is an option with a Condemnation. The use of a Liberation in this instance as in a couple others is that of the negative for of a Condemnation, with the presently hypothetical mechanical benefits of a Liberation.

Regarding CCD embracing it, the repeal attempts from or sponsored by them & the attempted Condemnation of me for passing it speak otherwise.


If the condemnation was the intent, use a condemnation, not a liberation. The Liberation tool should not be used on regions like this. Condemnations for actions should be via condemnations alone, not liberations.

And the benefits for the world with the present liberation of the CCD are just that, hypothetical. Liberations are passed with the intent to seize the region and liberate it, not just to leave it and move on. This repeal will lead to actual action, unlike the inaction of the liberation currently active.

viewtopic.php?p=34677372#p34677372 this says otherwise concerning the CCD "not" embracing it.
Last edited by Novae Romae on Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:52 am

Run me through what action is going to result from removing the Liberation.
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