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Should the CPUSA Be Outlawed and Forcefully Disbanded?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Should the CPUSA Be Outlawed and Forcefully Disbanded?

The CPUSA should be outlawed & disbanded simply for being Communist.
18
6%
The CPUSA should be outlawed & disbanded for collaborating with an enemy of the United States.
13
5%
The CPUSA should be outlawed & disbanded and all it's current and former members arrested for treason and espionage on behalf of a foreign power.
5
2%
The CPUSA should be outlawed but not disbanded and instead the FBI should monitor it's members just in case.
1
0%
The CPUSA should be outlawed but not disbanded.
2
1%
The CPUSA should not be outlawed or disbanded as it cannot be held accountable for events that occurred 30+ years ago.
20
7%
The CPUSA should not be outlawed or disbanded as that would be unconstitutional.
124
44%
The CPUSA should not be outlawed or disbanded but any current or former member suspected of spying for a foreign power should be investigated.
45
16%
The CPUSA should not be outlawed or disbanded because they won't win anything important anyway.
14
5%
David Hasselhoff should fight all 5,000 members of the CPUSA to the death with his bare hands in Madison Square Garden on live international television.
40
14%
 
Total votes : 282

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Should the CPUSA Be Outlawed and Forcefully Disbanded?

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:47 am

The Communist Party of the United States of America is a very old Communist Party that originated in 1919 when it split from the Socialist Party of America following diverging views on the Russian Revolution. While in it's early history it can boast having played a role in opposing racism & segregation and supporting the labor movement in America, these noble actions soon fell out of interest around the 1930s when the party becoming increasingly closer to the Soviet Union culminating in direct funding from Moscow, communication and cooperation with the KGB/NKVD, and outright acts of espionage with the intent to undermine the efforts of the United States to curb the imperialistic influence of the repressive and tyrannical Soviet Union. It's ties to Moscow ended in 1989 with it's opposition to Perestroika and Glasnost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist ... _espionage

It is no secret that I am a fervent Anti-Communist and I trust by now many of you on NSG will know that plainly. That being said, as an American I uphold the tenants of Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Association as virtues of deep cultural importance to my country and will gladly defend the right's of my fellow Americans to speak their mind and associate freely without fear of persecution by the government. However, a line must be drawn when it comes to outright subversion against the United States by Fifth Column elements at the behest of foreign powers; something that CPUSA has proven to have been involved in. 1989 was only 30 years ago, so I don't believe this is coming too little too late at all. I believe it was criminally negligent that it was not addressed sooner. In a time when Chinese and Russian interference in American internal politics is becoming increasingly more common, it is only fair we address foreign interference in the past that went largely ignored by the government.

As long as it still exists the CPUSA - in my opinion - is a threat to the integrity of the United States as it has already proven it is willing to blindly follow and serve a foreign power for over 50 years by any means including financial aid to our allies, war time efforts, foreign policy, and even the development of more advanced weapons. It is no secret the CPUSA played a vital role in Soviet infiltration of the Manhattan Project allowing for one of the most despotic and oppressive countries in recent history to attain weapons of mass destruction that then enabled it to hold the world hostage as it spread it's sickening influence across the globe, setting up more genocidal, totalitarian dictatorships in the process that proceeded to bring their respective countries to ruin until their Communist Parties were overthrown. Some of which were not so lucky to escape the binds of Marxism, and continue to toil under increasingly Orwellian regimes such as the illegitimate states of North Korea and the so-called "People's Republic" of China; the latter of which is quite literally the only country on Earth that can accurately be compared to the Third Reich.

It is evident, then that the CPUSA (from my point of view) represents a danger to America's political integrity as, unlike any other Communist or Socialist Party in the United States, it has explicitly supported a former enemy of the USA through covert actions in the past and there is nothing to suggest it will not in the future. We're not talking Moscow's indirect support for Mitch McConnell via the NRA, no, we're talking direct funding from Moscow to the CPUSA and actions taken by the CPUSA to undermine the U.S. and aid Soviet ambitions and intelligence. Thus, I propose that the CPUSA be outlawed and forcefully disbanded on the grounds that it cannot be trusted to participate in the governance of any town, city, county, state, or even the entire country at large.

What say ye, NSG?
Last edited by Trollzyn the Infinite on Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:50 am

The FBI could just stop paying their dues and it'd probably collapse on its own.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:53 am

Freedom of speech and association being some of the most important rights in any civilised society, no.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:54 am

We should outlaw all communist parties tbh

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:56 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Freedom of speech and association being some of the most important rights in any civilised society, no.


Normally I'd agree, but a line must be drawn when a political organizations engages in covert acts of espionage at the behest of a foreign power.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:56 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:We should outlaw all communist parties tbh

Why?

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:57 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Freedom of speech and association being some of the most important rights in any civilised society, no.


Normally I'd agree, but a line must be drawn when a political organizations engages in covert acts of espionage at the behest of a foreign power.

If its members have broken espionage laws, they should be prosecuted. The party however should not be shut down for its ideology.

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Cosmicium
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Postby Cosmicium » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:57 am

Wow, the CPUSA is such a threat with its 5,000 members and ONE local seat! Obviously that's enough to overthrow the ENTIRE American government!

/s, if you didn't get it already
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Postby Heloin » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:58 am

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

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Postby Drongonia » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:59 am

I think if any members of the party have done anything illegal, they should be punished to the full extent of the law. However, outlawing an entire party based on its (admittedly awful) ideology isn't very freedom-esque.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:01 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Normally I'd agree, but a line must be drawn when a political organizations engages in covert acts of espionage at the behest of a foreign power.

If its members have broken espionage laws, they should be prosecuted. The party however should not be shut down for its ideology.


I'm not suggesting it should be shut down for it's ideology. I'm suggesting it be shut down for collaborating with the foreign intelligence agencies of a former enemy for over 50 years and there's nothing to suggest the party is no longer open to committing such actions again. The party itself has escape punishment, and that should be rectified unless we want other organizations to think they can do the same.

Cosmicium wrote:Wow, the CPUSA is such a threat with its 5,000 members and ONE local seat! Obviously that's enough to overthrow the ENTIRE American government!

/s, if you didn't get it already


No matter how small a threat is when left unaddressed it has the potential to become more potent and powerful. Or did you learn nothing from WWII?
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Satuga
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Postby Satuga » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:03 am

Heloin wrote:First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

I doubt even if the party was banned that it would devolve that far.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:03 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:If its members have broken espionage laws, they should be prosecuted. The party however should not be shut down for its ideology.


I'm not suggesting it should be shut down for it's ideology. I'm suggesting it be shut down for collaborating with the foreign intelligence agencies of a former enemy for over 50 years and there's nothing to suggest the party is no longer open to committing such actions again. The party itself has escape punishment, and that should be rectified unless we want other organizations to think they can do the same.

Cosmicium wrote:Wow, the CPUSA is such a threat with its 5,000 members and ONE local seat! Obviously that's enough to overthrow the ENTIRE American government!

/s, if you didn't get it already


No matter how small a threat is when left unaddressed it has the potential to become more potent and powerful. Or did you learn nothing from WWII?

I think you've missed the statute of limitations here.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:03 am

Heloin wrote:First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist


CPUSA isn't even the biggest Left-wing political party in America. Try again.

Drongonia wrote:I think if any members of the party have done anything illegal, they should be punished to the full extent of the law. However, outlawing an entire party based on its (admittedly awful) ideology isn't very freedom-esque.


Again, it's not because of the ideology. Why is this so hard to understand? There are dozens of Left-wing political parties in the USA, I am drawing attention to a single one that has - in the past - committed actual acts of espionage.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:04 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
I'm not suggesting it should be shut down for it's ideology. I'm suggesting it be shut down for collaborating with the foreign intelligence agencies of a former enemy for over 50 years and there's nothing to suggest the party is no longer open to committing such actions again. The party itself has escape punishment, and that should be rectified unless we want other organizations to think they can do the same.



No matter how small a threat is when left unaddressed it has the potential to become more potent and powerful. Or did you learn nothing from WWII?

I think you've missed the statute of limitations here.


I don't believe treason and espionage have statutes of limitations. It'd be quite absurd if they did.
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Satuga
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Postby Satuga » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:04 am

In short no, we have freedom of speech for a reason however, if the group begins acting as espionage for say the CCP then and only then should they be prosecuted for treason against the US and it's safety.
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:04 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Freedom of speech and association being some of the most important rights in any civilised society, no.


Normally I'd agree, but a line must be drawn when a political organizations engages in covert acts of espionage at the behest of a foreign power.

Why there exactly? Why are the many and varied crimes of other American organisations not warrant them being disbanded?
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:05 am

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:05 am

Satuga wrote:
Heloin wrote:First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

I doubt even if the party was banned that it would devolve that far.

The point is that once one party has been banned, you've crossed the rubicon as applies to banning political parties. It'll become much easier to get over the opposition to banning a party if it has been done before.

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Postby Gormwood » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:05 am

Validating and hyping a perennial also-ran that couldn't be implicated in a plot to organize a hippie commune by demanding they be banned and disbanded. Do you also plan to boost Nike sales by hiring some guerillas to gun down customers at shoe stores?
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Postby Drongonia » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:06 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Again, it's not because of the ideology. Why is this so hard to understand? There are dozens of Left-wing political parties in the USA, I am drawing attention to a single one that has - in the past - committed actual acts of espionage.

That's fine, but unless you have proof that every single person in the party has done something illegal it should not be disbanded. Even if there was a single person left at CPUSA who hadn't done anything wrong they should be able to go ahead and hire people back to the party and begin anew.
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:10 am

Ifreann wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Normally I'd agree, but a line must be drawn when a political organizations engages in covert acts of espionage at the behest of a foreign power.

Why there exactly? Why are the many and varied crimes of other American organisations not warrant them being disbanded?


They aren't.

Now stay on topic.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Satuga wrote:I doubt even if the party was banned that it would devolve that far.

The point is that once one party has been banned, you've crossed the rubicon as applies to banning political parties. It'll become much easier to get over the opposition to banning a party if it has been done before.


Not if it was banned for a legitimate reason, such as espionage on behalf of a foreign power.

Gormwood wrote:Validating and hyping a perennial also-ran that couldn't be implicated in a plot to organize a hippie commune by demanding they be banned and disbanded. Do you also plan to boost Nike sales by hiring some guerillas to gun down customers at shoe stores?


Do you plan on making sense today?

Drongonia wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Again, it's not because of the ideology. Why is this so hard to understand? There are dozens of Left-wing political parties in the USA, I am drawing attention to a single one that has - in the past - committed actual acts of espionage.

That's fine, but unless you have proof that every single person in the party has done something illegal it should not be disbanded. Even if there was a single person left at CPUSA who hadn't done anything wrong they should be able to go ahead and hire people back to the party and begin anew.


Fair response. I had edited the poll to add another option.
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:13 am

OK, someone fess up, who created the time warp back to the McCarthy era?

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Postby Ifreann » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:14 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Why there exactly? Why are the many and varied crimes of other American organisations not warrant them being disbanded?


They aren't.

Now stay on topic.

This is on topic. I want to know why this organisation should be disbanded because of the past crimes of its members, but not other organisations.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:16 am

No, because free speech means all speech is free, including speech from idealists who don't realize that their ideology has a tendency to morph into full fledged authoritarianism. If we ban communism, I worry that a slippery slope will form and increasingly less left wing ideologies will be banned until only right wing politics remain. Groups like the CPUSA and identity evropa help me sleep at night knowing if they can have their ideologies then I can definitely have mine

Forgive the CPUSA for they know not what they are doing
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