All Things Impeachment

[Farnhamia]

Yes, friends, this is the Mod-sanctioned, giant economy-sized Impeachment Megathread! Rules are rules and will be obeyed.

We hope that this thread will have only impeachment-related posts but we do understand that there will be overlap between this and the MAGAThread and the Election megathread. We will be magnanimous in our grace and justice, as we always are, but thread-jacks will be dealt with harshly.



So, to start, the first of the public hearings in the House of Representatives will start at 10:00 AM Eastern Time (GMT minus 5) on Wednesday, November 13th. Here are some note from The New York Times:

The witnesses: Impeachment investigators will hear from William B. Taylor Jr., the top American diplomat in Ukraine, and George P. Kent, a senior State Department official in charge of Ukraine policy.

Mr. Taylor was a standout witness for Democrats during his closed-door testimony, describing in vivid terms how the Trump administration used military aid to try to coerce Ukraine into investigating the president’s rivals, and the real-world effects that had on the country’s war with Russia.

Mr. Kent testified that he regarded the push for investigations — spearheaded by Rudy Giuliani — as “injurious to the rule of law.”

The room: Democrats chose the spacious, columned, television-friendly chambers of the Ways and Means Committee — the House’s grandest hearing room — to serve as the backdrop for the hearings.

The officials: The hearing is taking place before the House Intelligence Committee and will be led by its Democratic chairman, Representative Adam B. Schiff, as well as his Republican counterpart, Representative Devin Nunes.

The prosecutors (of sorts): We’ll see at least two new faces: the staff lawyers who have been asking many of the questions in private witness depositions. Daniel Goldman, a former federal prosecutor in Manhattan, will ask questions for Democrats. Steve Castor, a congressional investigator who has worked in the House since 2005, will ask questions for Republicans.

The format: Under special rules adopted late last month, interviews will be split into 45-minute segments each for Mr. Schiff and Mr. Nunes. That time can be delegated to the staff lawyers, which Mr. Schiff said he was likely to do for a substantial block of his allotted time.

[Farnhamia]

Yes, friends, this is the Mod-sanctioned, giant economy-sized Impeachment Megathread! Rules are rules and will be obeyed.

We hope that this thread will have only impeachment-related posts but we do understand that three will be overlap between this and the MAGAThread and the Election megathread. We will be magnanimous in our grace and justice, as we always are, but thread-jacks will be dealt with harshly.



So, to start, the first of the public hearings in the House of Representatives will start at 10:00 AM Eastern Time (GMT minus 5) on Wednesday, November 13th. Here are some note from The New York Times:

The witnesses: Impeachment investigators will hear from William B. Taylor Jr., the top American diplomat in Ukraine, and George P. Kent, a senior State Department official in charge of Ukraine policy.

Mr. Taylor was a standout witness for Democrats during his closed-door testimony, describing in vivid terms how the Trump administration used military aid to try to coerce Ukraine into investigating the president’s rivals, and the real-world effects that had on the country’s war with Russia.

Mr. Kent testified that he regarded the push for investigations — spearheaded by Rudy Giuliani — as “injurious to the rule of law.”

The room: Democrats chose the spacious, columned, television-friendly chambers of the Ways and Means Committee — the House’s grandest hearing room — to serve as the backdrop for the hearings.

The officials: The hearing is taking place before the House Intelligence Committee and will be led by its Democratic chairman, Representative Adam B. Schiff, as well as his Republican counterpart, Representative Devin Nunes.

The prosecutors (of sorts): We’ll see at least two new faces: the staff lawyers who have been asking many of the questions in private witness depositions. Daniel Goldman, a former federal prosecutor in Manhattan, will ask questions for Democrats. Steve Castor, a congressional investigator who has worked in the House since 2005, will ask questions for Republicans.

The format: Under special rules adopted late last month, interviews will be split into 45-minute segments each for Mr. Schiff and Mr. Nunes. That time can be delegated to the staff lawyers, which Mr. Schiff said he was likely to do for a substantial block of his allotted time.

I honestly hope this goes through. Trump is an idiot in my opinion.

[Kowani]

Bringing this over from the MAGA-Thread:

Giuliani has released his defense.

[Farnhamia]

Bringing this over from the MAGA-Thread:

Giuliani has released his defense.

Seems to be pay-walled but maybe I hit my limit on free reads at the WSJ.

[Kowani]

Bringing this over from the MAGA-Thread:

Seems to be pay-walled but maybe I hit my limit on free reads at the WSJ.

Lemme see if I can find another one.

[The Rich Port]

Seems to be pay-walled but maybe I hit my limit on free reads at the WSJ.

Lemme see if I can find another one.

Someone's probably gonna pirate it, text easily is.

I'll be damned if I'm paying actual money to read a Wall Street Journal op-ed by Rudy goddamn Giuliani.

Maybe a Mitt Romney one. I'm curious what he thinks about anime.

[Drongonia]

Lemme see if I can find another one.

Seems to be pay-walled but maybe I hit my limit on free reads at the WSJ.

Here you are!

The Case for the Impeachment Defense
By Rudy Giuliani
Nov. 12, 2019 7:37 pm ET

If your only sources of news the past two months have been CNN and MSNBC, you probably think President Trump has committed some heinous act that is deserving of being drawn, quartered and carted out of the White House.

That’s a false narrative built on selectively leaked testimony from Rep. Adam Schiff’s closed-door Intelligence Committee hearings. The manner in which he and Speaker Nancy Pelosi are conducting this impeachment investigation is unprecedented, constitutionally questionable, and an affront to American fair play.

The conversation my client, President Donald J. Trump, had with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on July 25 was innocent. During a congratulatory call, the newly elected Mr. Zelensky brought up the need to “drain the swamp” in his country. Rooting out corruption was one of Mr. Zelensky’s campaign pledges, and Mr. Trump asked him to investigate allegations of corruption at the highest levels of both governments. It was a matter of serious mutual concern.

In particular, Messrs. Zelensky and Trump discussed Ukrainian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. A Ukrainian court ruled in December last year that the National Anti-Corruption Bureau and Ukrainian lawmaker Serhiy Leshchenko illegally interfered in the 2016 election by releasing documents related to Paul Manafort. A January 2017 report from Politico implied that the officials released the information to hurt the Trump campaign. The site reported that a Democratic National Committee contractor, Alexandra Chalupa, dug for dirt on Mr. Manafort’s work in Ukraine. This past May, Valeriy Chaly, Ukraine’s ambassador to the U.S., told the Hill’s John Solomon that Ms. Chalupa came to the embassy looking for damaging information on Mr. Manafort. Ms. Chalupa has denied conducting opposition research with Ukrainian officials for the DNC but told Politico that she provided what information she found on Mr. Manafort to “a lot of journalists.” Needless to say, the matter could still use investigating.

Mr. Trump also briefly brought up his concerns regarding former Vice President Joe Biden’s conduct toward Ukraine while his son, Hunter Biden, worked for the Ukrainian company Burisma. Andriy Derkach, a member of Ukraine’s Parliament, told the press in early October that he had reviewed documents showing that Burisma transferred $900,000 to Rosemont Seneca Partners, a lobbying firm owned by Hunter Biden, and that the money was for lobbying Joe Biden. In my view, the former vice president should be investigated for bribery, and at the very least both Bidens’ behavior deserves serious scrutiny.

For Messrs. Trump and Zelensky to discuss these issues was not only proper but an exercise of Mr. Trump’s responsibility as U.S. president as expressed in Article II, Section 3 of the Constitution: “to take care that the laws of the United States are faithfully executed.”

Moreover, Mr. Trump requested that Ukraine root out corruption; he didn’t demand it. His words were cordial, agreeable and free of any element of threat or coercion. Mr. Trump offered nothing in return to Ukraine for cleaning up corruption. If you doubt me, read the transcript. Allegations of Burisma-Biden corruption weren’t even a major part of the conversation. The focus was on Ukrainian corruption broadly speaking and out of a five-page transcript Mr. Trump spent only six lines on Joe Biden.

Moreover, Mr. Zelensky has made clear he felt the call was a perfectly normal, friendly and appropriate conversation, one in which he felt no pressure of any kind.

In an ideal America, politicians would be held to the same standard regardless of party, and this inquiry would be over. But the left’s inability to accept the results of the 2016 election and fear of Mr. Trump’s policy agenda have driven the Democrats into a frenzy. Call it Trump derangement syndrome or a corrupt double standard, but there can be little doubt that Mr. Biden would not be pursued so aggressively were he in Mr. Trump’s place. The dominance of the left-leaning media is one of the main reasons that Capitol Hill Democrats can get away with acting this way.

If the American people are allowed to see the facts of the matter, the truth will prevail. But if the allegations against Joe and Hunter Biden aren’t fully investigated, we won’t have equal justice under the law. Politicians of both parties should insist on fairness. That necessarily includes defending the right of political opponents to have their say before the American people—even President Trump.

[Pangurstan]

Bringing this over from the MAGA-Thread:

Seems to be pay-walled but maybe I hit my limit on free reads at the WSJ.

It’s paywalled.

5 seconds too late.

[The Rich Port]

Lemme see if I can find another one.

Seems to be pay-walled but maybe I hit my limit on free reads at the WSJ.

Here you are!

The Case for the Impeachment Defense
By Rudy Giuliani
Nov. 12, 2019 7:37 pm ET

If your only sources of news the past two months have been CNN and MSNBC, you probably think President Trump has committed some heinous act that is deserving of being drawn, quartered and carted out of the White House.

That’s a false narrative built on selectively leaked testimony from Rep. Adam Schiff’s closed-door Intelligence Committee hearings. The manner in which he and Speaker Nancy Pelosi are conducting this impeachment investigation is unprecedented, constitutionally questionable, and an affront to American fair play.

The conversation my client, President Donald J. Trump, had with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on July 25 was innocent. During a congratulatory call, the newly elected Mr. Zelensky brought up the need to “drain the swamp” in his country. Rooting out corruption was one of Mr. Zelensky’s campaign pledges, and Mr. Trump asked him to investigate allegations of corruption at the highest levels of both governments. It was a matter of serious mutual concern.

In particular, Messrs. Zelensky and Trump discussed Ukrainian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. A Ukrainian court ruled in December last year that the National Anti-Corruption Bureau and Ukrainian lawmaker Serhiy Leshchenko illegally interfered in the 2016 election by releasing documents related to Paul Manafort. A January 2017 report from Politico implied that the officials released the information to hurt the Trump campaign. The site reported that a Democratic National Committee contractor, Alexandra Chalupa, dug for dirt on Mr. Manafort’s work in Ukraine. This past May, Valeriy Chaly, Ukraine’s ambassador to the U.S., told the Hill’s John Solomon that Ms. Chalupa came to the embassy looking for damaging information on Mr. Manafort. Ms. Chalupa has denied conducting opposition research with Ukrainian officials for the DNC but told Politico that she provided what information she found on Mr. Manafort to “a lot of journalists.” Needless to say, the matter could still use investigating.

Mr. Trump also briefly brought up his concerns regarding former Vice President Joe Biden’s conduct toward Ukraine while his son, Hunter Biden, worked for the Ukrainian company Burisma. Andriy Derkach, a member of Ukraine’s Parliament, told the press in early October that he had reviewed documents showing that Burisma transferred $900,000 to Rosemont Seneca Partners, a lobbying firm owned by Hunter Biden, and that the money was for lobbying Joe Biden. In my view, the former vice president should be investigated for bribery, and at the very least both Bidens’ behavior deserves serious scrutiny.

For Messrs. Trump and Zelensky to discuss these issues was not only proper but an exercise of Mr. Trump’s responsibility as U.S. president as expressed in Article II, Section 3 of the Constitution: “to take care that the laws of the United States are faithfully executed.”

Moreover, Mr. Trump requested that Ukraine root out corruption; he didn’t demand it. His words were cordial, agreeable and free of any element of threat or coercion. Mr. Trump offered nothing in return to Ukraine for cleaning up corruption. If you doubt me, read the transcript. Allegations of Burisma-Biden corruption weren’t even a major part of the conversation. The focus was on Ukrainian corruption broadly speaking and out of a five-page transcript Mr. Trump spent only six lines on Joe Biden.

Moreover, Mr. Zelensky has made clear he felt the call was a perfectly normal, friendly and appropriate conversation, one in which he felt no pressure of any kind.

In an ideal America, politicians would be held to the same standard regardless of party, and this inquiry would be over. But the left’s inability to accept the results of the 2016 election and fear of Mr. Trump’s policy agenda have driven the Democrats into a frenzy. Call it Trump derangement syndrome or a corrupt double standard, but there can be little doubt that Mr. Biden would not be pursued so aggressively were he in Mr. Trump’s place. The dominance of the left-leaning media is one of the main reasons that Capitol Hill Democrats can get away with acting this way.

If the American people are allowed to see the facts of the matter, the truth will prevail. But if the allegations against Joe and Hunter Biden aren’t fully investigated, we won’t have equal justice under the law. Politicians of both parties should insist on fairness. That necessarily includes defending the right of political opponents to have their say before the American people—even President Trump.

Thank you, Drongo, for this masterful piracy :3

Whatever Trump is paying him is too goddamn much XD

[Greater Miami Shores]

Link Originally Posted by Kowani:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-case-f ... 1573605427

See how different Persons can have a different take on the same so called evidence. Even on Grand Juries in US Courts of laws, at times the Jury is divided on the guilt or innocence of a person based on the same so called evidence of guilt and guilty. It does happen from time to time.

In this particular case on President Trump's guilt or innocence of having committed an impeachable crime beyond a doubt and hearsay. Also this is Political trial against President Trump by the Democrats for Political reasons. I know and I understand many here disagree with me on this Point:

Link and source provided below at the end of the excerpt:
If your only sources of news the past two months have been CNN and MSNBC, you probably think President Trump has committed some heinous act that is deserving of being drawn, quartered and carted out of the White House.

That’s a false narrative built on selectively leaked testimony from Rep. Adam Schiff’s closed-door Intelligence Committee hearings. The manner in which he and Speaker Nancy Pelosi are conducting this impeachment investigation is unprecedented, constitutionally questionable, and an affront to American fair play....

To Read the Full Story
Subscribe

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-case-f ... 1573605427

[Gormwood]

Here you are!

The Case for the Impeachment Defense
By Rudy Giuliani
Nov. 12, 2019 7:37 pm ET

If your only sources of news the past two months have been CNN and MSNBC, you probably think President Trump has committed some heinous act that is deserving of being drawn, quartered and carted out of the White House.

That’s a false narrative built on selectively leaked testimony from Rep. Adam Schiff’s closed-door Intelligence Committee hearings. The manner in which he and Speaker Nancy Pelosi are conducting this impeachment investigation is unprecedented, constitutionally questionable, and an affront to American fair play.

The conversation my client, President Donald J. Trump, had with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on July 25 was innocent. During a congratulatory call, the newly elected Mr. Zelensky brought up the need to “drain the swamp” in his country. Rooting out corruption was one of Mr. Zelensky’s campaign pledges, and Mr. Trump asked him to investigate allegations of corruption at the highest levels of both governments. It was a matter of serious mutual concern.

In particular, Messrs. Zelensky and Trump discussed Ukrainian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. A Ukrainian court ruled in December last year that the National Anti-Corruption Bureau and Ukrainian lawmaker Serhiy Leshchenko illegally interfered in the 2016 election by releasing documents related to Paul Manafort. A January 2017 report from Politico implied that the officials released the information to hurt the Trump campaign. The site reported that a Democratic National Committee contractor, Alexandra Chalupa, dug for dirt on Mr. Manafort’s work in Ukraine. This past May, Valeriy Chaly, Ukraine’s ambassador to the U.S., told the Hill’s John Solomon that Ms. Chalupa came to the embassy looking for damaging information on Mr. Manafort. Ms. Chalupa has denied conducting opposition research with Ukrainian officials for the DNC but told Politico that she provided what information she found on Mr. Manafort to “a lot of journalists.” Needless to say, the matter could still use investigating.

Mr. Trump also briefly brought up his concerns regarding former Vice President Joe Biden’s conduct toward Ukraine while his son, Hunter Biden, worked for the Ukrainian company Burisma. Andriy Derkach, a member of Ukraine’s Parliament, told the press in early October that he had reviewed documents showing that Burisma transferred $900,000 to Rosemont Seneca Partners, a lobbying firm owned by Hunter Biden, and that the money was for lobbying Joe Biden. In my view, the former vice president should be investigated for bribery, and at the very least both Bidens’ behavior deserves serious scrutiny.

For Messrs. Trump and Zelensky to discuss these issues was not only proper but an exercise of Mr. Trump’s responsibility as U.S. president as expressed in Article II, Section 3 of the Constitution: “to take care that the laws of the United States are faithfully executed.”

Moreover, Mr. Trump requested that Ukraine root out corruption; he didn’t demand it. His words were cordial, agreeable and free of any element of threat or coercion. Mr. Trump offered nothing in return to Ukraine for cleaning up corruption. If you doubt me, read the transcript. Allegations of Burisma-Biden corruption weren’t even a major part of the conversation. The focus was on Ukrainian corruption broadly speaking and out of a five-page transcript Mr. Trump spent only six lines on Joe Biden.

Moreover, Mr. Zelensky has made clear he felt the call was a perfectly normal, friendly and appropriate conversation, one in which he felt no pressure of any kind.

In an ideal America, politicians would be held to the same standard regardless of party, and this inquiry would be over. But the left’s inability to accept the results of the 2016 election and fear of Mr. Trump’s policy agenda have driven the Democrats into a frenzy. Call it Trump derangement syndrome or a corrupt double standard, but there can be little doubt that Mr. Biden would not be pursued so aggressively were he in Mr. Trump’s place. The dominance of the left-leaning media is one of the main reasons that Capitol Hill Democrats can get away with acting this way.

If the American people are allowed to see the facts of the matter, the truth will prevail. But if the allegations against Joe and Hunter Biden aren’t fully investigated, we won’t have equal justice under the law. Politicians of both parties should insist on fairness. That necessarily includes defending the right of political opponents to have their say before the American people—even President Trump.

Thank you, Drongo, for this masterful piracy :3

Whatever Trump is paying him is too goddamn much XD

Knowing Donnie, nothing. The only time he actually pays is when you fuck him and he wants it hushed up.

[Debussy]

Trump should be impeached and everyone should call their representatives.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Trump should be impeached and everyone should call their representatives.

President Trump should not be impeached and everyone should call their representatives.

[Drongonia]

President Trump should not be impeached and everyone should call their representatives.

Big agree.

[Vassenor]

President Trump should not be impeached and everyone should call their representatives.

Big agree.

Why?

[Drongonia]

Big agree.

Why?

Because I don't want him to have to leave office before democratically kicked out (or hit by a term limit)

[Vassenor]

Why?

Because I don't want him to have to leave office before democratically kicked out (or hit by a term limit)

Even if he demonstrably violated the law and abused his office for personal gain?

[Greater Miami Shores]

Big agree.

Why?

Vassenor you all know very well my reasons why and I know very well your reasons and your leftists friends reasons why not.

I agree with Drongonia:
Big agree.
viewtopic.php?p=36430388#p36430388

Since this is the new official Trump impeachment Maga Thread, I will not apologize to anyone for my so called canned responses. and my economic, political and social views. For my strong and Proud support of President Donald J Trump of The USA of America - The USA. Like you all don't do so on the opposite views of the Democrats and on President Trump.

Why should President Donald J Trump of The United States of America - The USA should not be impeached and everyone should call their Representatives? To Keep Making America Great Again - Viva Trump 2020

Nothing has been proven against President Donnie Trump, no obstruction, no collusion, no violations of the emoluments clause and no Trump Ukraine Gate beyond a doubt and hearsay. This is Political trial and Political war declared by the Democrats against President Trump for Political reasons to weaken him politically during the election season with Independent voters and the American People, not for Justice in America - The USA. Lets not keep denying it.

The President of Ukraine a former comedian, has stated he felt no pressures from President Trump. Their was no quid pro quo and no black mail. It should have been on a video not on phone call. Good Joke Volodymyr Zelensky lol.

I rest my case again.

[Vassenor]

Why?

Vassenor you all know very well my reasons why and I know very well your reasons and your leftists friends reasons why not.

I agree with Drongonia:
Big agree.
viewtopic.php?p=36430388#p36430388

Since this is the new official Trump impeachment Maga Thread, I will not apologize to anyone for my so called canned responses. and my economic, political and social views. For my strong and Proud support of President Donald J Trump of The USA of America - The USA. Like you all don't do so on the opposite views of the Democrats and on President Trump.

Why should President Donald J Trump of The United States of America - The USA should not be impeached and everyone should call their Representatives? To Keep Making America Great Again - Viva Trump 2020

Nothing has been proven against President Donnie Trump, no obstruction, no collusion, no violations of the emoluments clause and no Trump Ukraine Gate beyond a doubt and hearsay. This is Political trial by the Democrats against President Trump for Political reasons to weaken him politically during the election season with Independent voters and the American People, not for Justice in America - The USA. Lets not keep denying it.

The President of Ukraine a former comedian, has stated he felt no pressures from President Trump. Their was no quid pro quo and no black mail. It should have been on a video not on phone call. Good Joke Volodymyr Zelensky lol.

I rest my case again.

Remember, everything must be proven beyond reasonable doubt before the investigation can begin. Even though the point of the investigation is to find that proof.

And I'm sorry if the multiple witnesses testifying that it did happen upsets you but you don't just get to ignore that they exist to satisfy your narratives.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Vassenor you all know very well my reasons why and I know very well your reasons and your leftists friends reasons why not.

I agree with Drongonia:
Big agree.
viewtopic.php?p=36430388#p36430388

Since this is the new official Trump impeachment Maga Thread, I will not apologize to anyone for my so called canned responses. and my economic, political and social views. For my strong and Proud support of President Donald J Trump of The USA of America - The USA. Like you all don't do so on the opposite views of the Democrats and on President Trump.

Why should President Donald J Trump of The United States of America - The USA should not be impeached and everyone should call their Representatives? To Keep Making America Great Again - Viva Trump 2020

Nothing has been proven against President Donnie Trump, no obstruction, no collusion, no violations of the emoluments clause and no Trump Ukraine Gate beyond a doubt and hearsay. This is Political trial by the Democrats against President Trump for Political reasons to weaken him politically during the election season with Independent voters and the American People, not for Justice in America - The USA. Lets not keep denying it.

The President of Ukraine a former comedian, has stated he felt no pressures from President Trump. Their was no quid pro quo and no black mail. It should have been on a video not on phone call. Good Joke Volodymyr Zelensky lol.

I rest my case again.

Remember, everything must be proven beyond reasonable doubt before the investigation can begin. Even though the point of the investigation is to find that proof.

And I'm sorry if the multiple witnesses testifying that it did happen upsets you but you don't just get to ignore that they exist to satisfy your narratives.

And those witnesses don't have any facts other than their hearsay and opinions. I have seen links to this. Their are other witnesses who support that it has not happened. Republicans want to call certain witnesses in defense of President Trump and can be blocked by Democrat Adam Schiff and the Democrat majority on the committee, as Adam Schiff has blocked and stated so.

Even in US Courts of Laws Grand Juries at times are divided on the guilt or innocence of a Person based on the same so called evidence presented in US Courts of Laws.

I am sorry if the others don't fit your narrative of your anti Trump views. I get it you support the Democrats don't like or you hate President Trump based on the posts I have seen on these Trump Maga Threads, and their is nothing wrong with that, from your personal and political perspective. Just as their is nothing wrong with that, of my personal and political perspective of support for the Republicans and President Trump.

[Vassenor]

]

Remember, everything must be proven beyond reasonable doubt before the investigation can begin. Even though the point of the investigation is to find that proof.

And I'm sorry if the multiple witnesses testifying that it did happen upsets you but you don't just get to ignore that they exist to satisfy your narratives.

And those witnesses don't have any facts other than their hearsay and opinions. I have seen links to this. Their are other witnesses who support that it has not happened. Republicans want to call certain witnesses in defense of President Trump and can be blocked by Democrat Adam Schiff and the Democrat majority on the committee, as Adam Schiff has blocked and stated so.

Even in US Courts of Laws Grand Juries at times are divided on the guilt or innocence of a Person based on the same so called evidence presented in US Courts of Laws.

I am sorry if the others don't fit your narrative of your anti Trump views. I get it you support the Democrats don't like or you hate President Trump based on the posts I have seen on these Trump Maga Threads, and their is nothing wrong with that, from your personal and political perspective. Just as their is nothing wrong with that, of my personal and political perspective of support for the Republicans and President Trump.

And who has been blocked from being called?

[Drongonia]

Even if he demonstrably violated the law and abused his office for personal gain?

If he demonstrably did, then maybe I'd change my mind. But at this point, impeachment proceedings haven't even begun - meaning that the investigation hasn't been completed, so we're waiting for demonstrable proof beyond reasonable doubt. So based on all of the information we know now - no.

[Senkaku]

And those witnesses don't have any facts other than their hearsay and opinions.

I mean, if you want to get all solipsistic about it, do any of us really have anything other than our hearsay and opinions?

[Vassenor]

And those witnesses don't have any facts other than their hearsay and opinions.

I mean, if you want to get all solipsistic about it, do any of us really have anything other than our hearsay and opinions?

But their hearsay and opinions are that Trump can do no wrong even if all the evidence says otherwise so that's different because facts and reasons and logic.

[Senkaku]

I mean, if you want to get all solipsistic about it, do any of us really have anything other than our hearsay and opinions?

But their hearsay and opinions are that Trump can do no wrong even if all the evidence says otherwise so that's different because facts and reasons and logic.

Actually, I just realized what I said is actually basically GMS's view- if you disagree, there's just an irreconcilable difference of opinion between you and him that nothing can ever possibly change, upon which evidence or empirical information have no impact. We're all just isolated minds drifting in the darkness perceiving everything differently, and you can never prove to him that the two of you are witnessing the same reality.

Cheerful thought to end the night on!