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Is it disrespectful to sit during the Pledge?

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Asardia
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Is it disrespectful to sit during the Pledge?

Postby Asardia » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:12 pm

Tomorrow is Veterans Day, the 11th of November, which also coincides with the armistice signed that ended the first world war. Here in the United States, it's a holiday, and schools tend to bring in veterans to speak to students about their experiences in combat. However, I've also noticed a trend, both in sports (Colin Kaepernick) and at my own high school. People sit/kneel during the national anthem or during the pledge of allegiance. Some do it in order to protest certain events, while others refuse to stand for their own personal reasons.

The reason I bring up this topic is due to the arguments I've seen that are against sitting for the pledge/national anthem. At school, we have debates saying "it's disrespectful to all those who fought for your freedoms to not even stand for the pledge." This argument seems rather compelling to my classmates whenever we discuss this, however I have my own take, and I would to hear what you all think about it as well.

My ancestors were slaves, kidnapped from their homes in Africa and forced into chattel slavery for their entire lives. My grandparents tell me stories of what it was like to grow up in the 1950s and 1960s, dealing with discrimination, racism, and police brutality. In fact, my grandmother told me how hard it was, as a black woman, to secure a job in post Jim Crow America. The veterans who came into our school were from WW2 onwards. During that same time period, the United States orchestrated countless coups in democratic nations: Guatemala in 1954, and Iran in 1953. In fact, the United States had a segregated military until 1948, when Truman ended it with an executive order.

But perhaps the worst are these: The US backed an authoritarian regime in South Korea, despite being "pro democratic". The US supported Saddam Hussein in the 1980s Iran-Iraq War. The US gave weapons to what became Al Qaeda. The US straight up invaded Panama in 1989 and arrested its leader (whom they supported for years) on drug trafficking. They left Iraq in state of chaos after the 2003 invasion. In fact, the US actively ignored the Rwandan Genocide, but made sure to invade Iraq after their invasion of Kuwait.

The point I have is that the US, like all countries, does not have a perfect track record for humanitarian intervention and democracy. These events, which disregarded the will of the people and a nation's sovereignty, is why I personally don't stand during the pledge of allegiance. If it's disrespectful to veterans to sit, then I find it disrespectful to stand, knowing about the millions who suffered from American foreign intervention and regime changes.

So, what are your thoughts on this issue? Is it an issue at all? Is the Pledge of Allegiance sole purpose to commemorate the bravery of the soldiers? I find this topic to be rather fascinating and controversial
Last edited by Asardia on Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:24 pm

Yes it is disrespectful, but that is the point. Theoretically speaking you have the right to make that point in america.
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Postby Macger » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:26 pm

Yes, highly disrespectful

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Postby Ruslandi » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:28 pm

Yes

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Postby Ifreann » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:32 pm

It's super weird that America expects kids to pledge allegiance to the country in the first place.
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Postby Agarntrop » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:33 pm

Ifreann wrote:It's super weird that America expects kids to pledge allegiance to the country in the first place.

Yeah
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Postby Verderi » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:34 pm

Asardia wrote:Tomorrow is Veterans Day, the 11th of November, which also coincides with the armistice signed during that ended the first world war. Here in the United States, it's a holiday, and schools tend to bring in veterans to speak to students about their experiences in combat. However, I've also noticed a trend, both in sports (Colin Kaepernick) and at my own high school. People sit/kneel during the national anthem or during the pledge of allegiance. Some do it in order to protest certain events, while others refuse to stand for their own personal reasons.

The reason I bring up this topic is due to the arguments I've seen that are against sitting for the pledge/national anthem. At school, we have debates saying "it's disrespectful to all those who fought for your freedoms to not even stand for the pledge." This argument seems rather compelling to my classmates whenever we discuss this, however I have my own take, and I would to hear what you all think about it as well.

My ancestors were slaves, kidnapped from their homes in Africa and forced into chattel slavery for their entire lives. My grandparents tell me stories of what it was like to grow up in the 1950s and 1960s, dealing with discrimination, racism, and police brutality. In fact, my grandmother told me how hard it was, as a black woman, to secure a job in post Jim Crow America. The veterans who came into our school were from WW2 onwards. During that same time period, the United States orchestrated countless coups in democratic nations: Guatemala in 1954, and Iran in 1953.

But perhaps the worst are these: The US backed an authoritarian regime in South Korea, despite being "pro democratic". The US supported Saddam Hussein in the 1980s Iran-Iraq War. The US gave weapons to what became Al Qaeda. The US straight up invaded Panama in 1989 and arrested its leader (whom they supported for years) on drug trafficking. They left Iraq in state of chaos after the 2003 invasion. In fact, the US actively ignored the Rwandan Genocide, but made sure to invade Iraq after their invasion of Kuwait.

The point I have is that the US, like all countries, does not have a perfect track record for humanitarian intervention and democracy. These events, which disregarded the will of the people and a nation's sovereignty, is why I personally don't stand during the pledge of allegiance. If it's disrespectful to veterans to sit, then I find it disrespectful to the millions who suffered from American foreign intervention and regime changes. So, what are your thoughts on this issue? Is it an issue at all? Is the Pledge of Allegiance sole purpose to commemorate the bravery of the soldiers? I find this topic to be rather fascinating and controversial



Yes, it is stupidly disrespectful

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Postby Sleet Clans » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:35 pm

Extremely.
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Iridencia
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Postby Iridencia » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:36 pm

Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't matter, you still have the right to do it without consequence. Frankly, there are more important things to worry about regarding children and the country than whether or not they're giving proper respect to some lame little poem and a piece of fabric.

And no, I don't want to hear about "muh troops." Unless the troops are connected to American symbols through voodoo magic and are literally physically harmed by people disrespecting them, then they're more than capable of putting that military training to good use and growing a thicker skin about it.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:36 pm

Ifreann wrote:It's super weird that America expects kids to pledge allegiance to the country in the first place.

It's actually something you'd expect an authoritarian state to do.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:36 pm

Who is it who is being disrespected by someone declining to pledge allegiance to America?
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Postby Ruslandi » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:37 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Ifreann wrote:It's super weird that America expects kids to pledge allegiance to the country in the first place.

It's actually something you'd expect an authoritarian state to do.


I wish America was more authoritarian

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Iridencia
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Postby Iridencia » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:39 pm

Ifreann wrote:Who is it who is being disrespected by someone declining to pledge allegiance to America?


Furthermore, why are they owed that respect in the first place?

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Asardia
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Postby Asardia » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:40 pm

Alright, so I just want to ask this now. As a black person, people like me literally had no rights for half of American history. The second half, people like me were delegated to being second class citizens. You all have heard the stories of Emmett Till? This country has not really taken a progressive stance on human rights until the 60s and 70s.

The comments here are simply "yes", but none actually address anything I really said in the OP. You have people like Muhammad Ali who lost his boxing license for years due to his refusal to be drafted.
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Postby The New California Republic » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:40 pm

Ruslandi wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:It's actually something you'd expect an authoritarian state to do.


I wish America was more authoritarian

Um, rather ironic considering the Pledge has "liberty and justice for all" in it...
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
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Postby Ruslandi » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:41 pm

Iridencia wrote:Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't matter, you still have the right to do it without consequence. Frankly, there are more important things to worry about regarding children and the country than whether or not they're giving proper respect to some lame little poem and a piece of fabric.

And no, I don't want to hear about "muh troops." Unless the troops are connected to American symbols through voodoo magic and are literally physically harmed by people disrespecting them, then they're more than capable of putting that military training to good use and growing a thicker skin about it.


Your "muh troops" argument can be easily debunked, as the national symbols pay homage to and represent the men who fought and bled for the nation. Thus it is disrespectful to the men who died in service to the nation.

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Asardia
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Postby Asardia » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:42 pm

Ifreann wrote:Who is it who is being disrespected by someone declining to pledge allegiance to America?


They say it's disrespectful to the US military and its veterans

Iridencia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Who is it who is being disrespected by someone declining to pledge allegiance to America?


Furthermore, why are they owed that respect in the first place?


People say the respect is owed to the military because they fought, while us civilians didn't
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:42 pm

Ruslandi wrote:
Iridencia wrote:Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't matter, you still have the right to do it without consequence. Frankly, there are more important things to worry about regarding children and the country than whether or not they're giving proper respect to some lame little poem and a piece of fabric.

And no, I don't want to hear about "muh troops." Unless the troops are connected to American symbols through voodoo magic and are literally physically harmed by people disrespecting them, then they're more than capable of putting that military training to good use and growing a thicker skin about it.


Your "muh troops" argument can be easily debunked, as the national symbols pay homage to and represent the men who fought and bled for the nation. Thus it is disrespectful to the men who died in service to the nation.


By exercising the rights they fought for?
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Postby Ruslandi » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:43 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Ruslandi wrote:
Your "muh troops" argument can be easily debunked, as the national symbols pay homage to and represent the men who fought and bled for the nation. Thus it is disrespectful to the men who died in service to the nation.


By exercising the rights they fought for?



American citizens should not have the right to disrespect the nation or it's dead. It should, in fact, be a punishable offense.

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Auristania
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Postby Auristania » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:44 pm

Standing shows respect.
Sitting in protest shows disrespect.
Kneeling LOOKS like extra respect, but we have been told it is also a protest.

Good news, you have the right, duty and obligation to protest the evil government; bad news, it also LOOKS like disrespecting veterans.

Perfect and exact analogy: you have right, duty and obligation to go on protest marches; bad news, protest marches snarl up traffic and inconvenience many innocent people.

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Asardia
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Postby Asardia » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:44 pm

Ruslandi wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
By exercising the rights they fought for?



American citizens should not have the right to disrespect the nation or it's dead. It should, in fact, be a punishable offense.


I strongly disagree with this. I find it incredibly ironic to hear how soldiers fought for freedom, and then see people disregard the entire notion they fought for. The 1st amendment literally protects things like this.
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Often its not the driver but the passengers that find the right path

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Iridencia
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Postby Iridencia » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:45 pm

Ruslandi wrote:
Iridencia wrote:Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't matter, you still have the right to do it without consequence. Frankly, there are more important things to worry about regarding children and the country than whether or not they're giving proper respect to some lame little poem and a piece of fabric.

And no, I don't want to hear about "muh troops." Unless the troops are connected to American symbols through voodoo magic and are literally physically harmed by people disrespecting them, then they're more than capable of putting that military training to good use and growing a thicker skin about it.


Your "muh troops" argument can be easily debunked, as the national symbols pay homage to and represent the men who fought and bled for the nation. Thus it is disrespectful to the men who died in service to the nation.


You didn't debunk it, you just repeated the same old argument. So let me repeat mine: I don't give a shit who or what it allegedly pays homage to. The troops are not entitled to my reverence. They're owed basic rights and compensation for their service, nothing more or less.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:45 pm

Ruslandi wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
By exercising the rights they fought for?



American citizens should not have the right to disrespect the nation or it's dead. It should, in fact, be a punishable offense.

Limiting the freedoms they fought to protect is arguably far more disrespectful than sitting during the Pledge...
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:47 pm

Ruslandi wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
By exercising the rights they fought for?



American citizens should not have the right to disrespect the nation or it's dead. It should, in fact, be a punishable offense.

Why are you disrespecting the soldiers who fought and died to secure freedom for America and its people?
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Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:48 pm

Ifreann wrote:Who is it who is being disrespected by someone declining to pledge allegiance to America?


The nation. I am sure the nation can survive it.

As an aside don t the UKers go about singing god save the queen or some other tune at sporting events and what not and expect its citizens to stand?
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