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Republicans plot to Outright Steal Kentucky Gov. Election

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San Lumen
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Republicans plot to Outright Steal Kentucky Gov. Election

Postby San Lumen » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:35 pm

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/n ... 174103002/

Republicans in the Kentucky legislature are considering outright stealing the Governor election they just lost according to the Senate President. They re making the claim that the Libertarian candidate was a spoiler and Bevin would have won if not for him and might attempt to declare Bevin the winner according to the Senate President Steve Stiver. Bevin has not conceded to Beshear.

If this plot succeeds I hope there are mass protests in Frankfort and these people are forced out of the capitol building. Hopefully a court will stop this coup. Gov elect Beshear isnt going to let them get away with it.

I think its quite clear at this point Republicans see Democracy as an annoyance.

Your thoughts NSG?
Last edited by San Lumen on Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Napkizemlja
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Postby Napkizemlja » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:39 pm

From what I understand, less than half of the votes were for Bershear. Therefore, it is only right that he is not given the governorship, since he does not have a clear majority. Why do you hate democracy, Lumen?

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:43 pm

Napkizemlja wrote:From what I understand, less than half of the votes were for Bershear. Therefore, it is only right that he is not given the governorship, since he does not have a clear majority. Why do you hate democracy, Lumen?

That’s what we do down here in Georgia. If no candidate wins an outright majority then another election takes place so that a candidate has an outright majority.
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Postby Klorgia1 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:45 pm

Rather depressing they plan to do this (especially because I don't remember Stivers protesting that Donald won without a majority in 2016).

Unfortunately, the spoiler-effect is one of the many issues with the first past the post in play here. If Republicans as a whole want to do something, change the way elections are handled, don't count this one as null.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:45 pm

Napkizemlja wrote:From what I understand, less than half of the votes were for Bershear. Therefore, it is only right that he is not given the governorship, since he does not have a clear majority. Why do you hate democracy, Lumen?

The state constitution does not require that one get a majority of votes for statewide office merely they get the most votes. How is it wrong for Beshear not to receive the office he won fair and square? Why do you hate democracy is the question you should be asking.

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Postby Asle Leopolka » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:46 pm

Napkizemlja wrote:From what I understand, less than half of the votes were for Bershear. Therefore, it is only right that he is not given the governorship, since he does not have a clear majority. Why do you hate democracy, Lumen?

This article has a pretty good writeup of what the likely next steps will be:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 174894002/

Personally I think Bevin should cut his losses. My understanding is that he was very unpopular, especially near the end of the campaign cycle (although I don't live in Kentucky, so I can't vouch for the accuracy of that)
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Napkizemlja
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Postby Napkizemlja » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:47 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:From what I understand, less than half of the votes were for Bershear. Therefore, it is only right that he is not given the governorship, since he does not have a clear majority. Why do you hate democracy, Lumen?

The state constitution does not require that one get a majority of votes for statewide office merely they get the most votes. How is it wrong for Beshear not to receive the office he won fair and square? Why do you hate democracy is the question you should be asking.

I do not hate democracy, it is clear that the majority of people in Kentucky have not voted for Beshear and his radical liberalism, instead favoring right of center candidates. Why should the majority be subjected to the will of a minority of voters? :^)
Last edited by Napkizemlja on Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Fahran » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:47 pm

According to the Associated Press, the gubernatorial race is too close to call. The unofficial results from the Kentucky Election Board have Beshear winning but within 0.7% points of Bevin, well within the margin of error and well within bounds to contest the results or request a recanvas. There's no indictation that the GOP is attempting to steal the governorship through unlawful means. They still have to adhere to procedures.

Source.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:48 pm

Asle Leopolka wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:From what I understand, less than half of the votes were for Bershear. Therefore, it is only right that he is not given the governorship, since he does not have a clear majority. Why do you hate democracy, Lumen?

This article has a pretty good writeup of what the likely next steps will be:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 174894002/

Personally I think Bevin should cut his losses. My understanding is that he was very unpopular, especially near the end of the campaign cycle (although I don't live in Kentucky, so I can't vouch for the accuracy of that)


I think he should do but it doesn't appear he will. I would not put it past Republicans to install Bevin for a second term.

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:48 pm

Fahran wrote:According to the Associated Press, the gubernatorial race is too close to call. The unofficial results from the Kentucky Election Board have Beshear winning but within 0.7% points of Bevin, well within the margin of error and well within bounds to contest the results or request a recanvas. There's no indictation that the GOP is attempting to steal the governorship through unlawful means. They still have to adhere to procedures.

Source.


There is no law in Kentucky for automatic recounts. Its whatever a court says it is and Bevin would have to pay for the recount.

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Postby Fahran » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:50 pm

San Lumen wrote:There is no law in Kentucky for automatic recounts. Its whatever a court says it is and Bevin would have to pay for the recount.

It's not automatic. He has to go through a process to request a recanvas and to formally contest the results. The state constitution does allow for that.
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:50 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:From what I understand, less than half of the votes were for Bershear. Therefore, it is only right that he is not given the governorship, since he does not have a clear majority. Why do you hate democracy, Lumen?

The state constitution does not require that one get a majority of votes for statewide office merely they get the most votes. How is it wrong for Beshear not to receive the office he won fair and square? Why do you hate democracy is the question you should be asking.

It’s evident that the majority do not want Bershear to be the governor, it’s also evident that the majority don’t want any of the other candidates to be governor either. So the only way to fix this is to have another election with just the top two candidates. That way at least one of them will get 50%+1.
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Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:51 pm

Napkizemlja wrote:
San Lumen wrote:The state constitution does not require that one get a majority of votes for statewide office merely they get the most votes. How is it wrong for Beshear not to receive the office he won fair and square? Why do you hate democracy is the question you should be asking.

I do not hate democracy, it is clear that the majority of people in Kentucky have not voted for Beshear and his radical liberalism, instead favoring right of center candidates. Why should the majority be subjected to the will of a minority of voters? :^)

The majority of Americans also voted for Al Gore in 2000 and Hillary Clinton in 2016, yet I don't see you or any Republican for that matter complaining about a "rigged system". If you want a better handled election, then start a movement to enact ranked choice voting nationwide. That will once and for all overhaul the dysfunctional electoral system America has.

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:51 pm

Fahran wrote:
San Lumen wrote:There is no law in Kentucky for automatic recounts. Its whatever a court says it is and Bevin would have to pay for the recount.

It's not automatic. He has to go through a process to request a recanvas and to formally contest the results. The state constitution does allow for that.


There isnt any basis to contest the result. There is no evidence of fraud. Bevin simply can't accept he lost the election and apparently neither can the legislature

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:52 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:The state constitution does not require that one get a majority of votes for statewide office merely they get the most votes. How is it wrong for Beshear not to receive the office he won fair and square? Why do you hate democracy is the question you should be asking.

It’s evident that the majority do not want Bershear to be the governor, it’s also evident that the majority don’t want any of the other candidates to be governor either. So the only way to fix this is to have another election with just the top two candidates. That way at least one of them will get 50%+1.


There is no provision for that in the state constitution.

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Postby Camelone » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:52 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:The state constitution does not require that one get a majority of votes for statewide office merely they get the most votes. How is it wrong for Beshear not to receive the office he won fair and square? Why do you hate democracy is the question you should be asking.

It’s evident that the majority do not want Bershear to be the governor, it’s also evident that the majority don’t want any of the other candidates to be governor either. So the only way to fix this is to have another election with just the top two candidates. That way at least one of them will get 50%+1.

This is another example of why a run-off election system would be better than first past the post.
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Postby Camelone » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:53 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Fahran wrote:It's not automatic. He has to go through a process to request a recanvas and to formally contest the results. The state constitution does allow for that.


There isnt any basis to contest the result. There is no evidence of fraud. Bevin simply can't accept he lost the election and apparently neither can the legislature

There doesn’t have to be fraud for there to be a mistake, note that the results were within the margin of error as Fahran noted.
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Postby Fahran » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:53 pm

San Lumen wrote:There isnt any basis to contest the result. There is no evidence of fraud. Bevin simply can't accept he lost the election and apparently neither can the legislature

Beshear won by 0.7% points. That's reason enough to contest the results and request a recount. The allegation that this somehow tantamount to the GOP stealing the election is silly. We have no indication that the results will be thrown out altogether or that Bevin will be installed for no other reason than the R by his name. Again, there's a process to this.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:54 pm

Camelone wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
There isnt any basis to contest the result. There is no evidence of fraud. Bevin simply can't accept he lost the election and apparently neither can the legislature

There doesn’t have to be fraud for there to be a mistake, note that the results were within the margin of error as Fahran noted.

Margin of error? Are you making the suggestion that several thousand votes were miscounted? Very doubtful

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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:54 pm

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:I do not hate democracy, it is clear that the majority of people in Kentucky have not voted for Beshear and his radical liberalism, instead favoring right of center candidates. Why should the majority be subjected to the will of a minority of voters? :^)

The majority of Americans also voted for Al Gore in 2000 and Hillary Clinton in 2016, yet I don't see you or any Republican for that matter complaining about a "rigged system". If you want a better handled election, then start a movement to enact ranked choice voting nationwide. That will once and for all overhaul the dysfunctional electoral system America has.

First off Nap isn’t a Republican, unless Canadians are now Americans.

Secondly I contest that both those presidents, definitely Gore, should have been elected.

And finally Single District PR is better for the lower house with STV for the upper and Two Round for the Executive
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:55 pm

Fahran wrote:
San Lumen wrote:There isnt any basis to contest the result. There is no evidence of fraud. Bevin simply can't accept he lost the election and apparently neither can the legislature

Beshear won by 0.7% points. That's reason enough to contest the results and request a recount. The allegation that this somehow tantamount to the GOP stealing the election is silly. We have no indication that the results will be thrown out altogether or that Bevin will be installed for no other reason than the R by his name. Again, there's a process to this.

and one that Bevin would have to pay for. Kentucky doesn't have automatic recounts and the Senate President seems be strongly hinting at thumbing his nose at the people of the state.

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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:55 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Camelone wrote:There doesn’t have to be fraud for there to be a mistake, note that the results were within the margin of error as Fahran noted.

Margin of error? Are you making the suggestion that several thousand votes were miscounted? Very doubtful

It’s not impossible. Remember Florida in 2000?
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Postby Fahran » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:55 pm

San Lumen wrote:Margin of error? Are you making the suggestion that several thousand votes were miscounted? Very doubtful

A few thousand out of hundreds of thousands. And, as my article mentioned, that is unlikely but the possibility is still enough that Bevin is not being unreasonable in requesting a recount.
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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:56 pm

Fahran wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Margin of error? Are you making the suggestion that several thousand votes were miscounted? Very doubtful

A few thousand out of hundreds of thousands. And, as my article mentioned, that is unlikely but the possibility is still enough that Bevin is not being unreasonable in requesting a recount.

and he has to pay for that recount. There are no automatic recounts in Kentucky

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Napkizemlja
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Postby Napkizemlja » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:56 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Fahran wrote:Beshear won by 0.7% points. That's reason enough to contest the results and request a recount. The allegation that this somehow tantamount to the GOP stealing the election is silly. We have no indication that the results will be thrown out altogether or that Bevin will be installed for no other reason than the R by his name. Again, there's a process to this.

and one that Bevin would have to pay for. Kentucky doesn't have automatic recounts and the Senate President seems be strongly hinting at thumbing his nose at the people of the state.

Given that the people of Kentucky didn't want Beshear, if anything it's giving them what they want. :^)

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