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Does the first amendment make speech less free?

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Werpman
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Does the first amendment make speech less free?

Postby Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:04 pm

One thing that has always puzzled me is my fellow citizens' (especially right-wing ones) belief that Europe has a less free public conversation because of their lack of something similar to the First Amendment. On the contrary, it seems as if this has made public discourse more free.

If you look at France for example, you have writers like Michel Houellebecq writing books (some people might find) similar to the Turner Diaries (but obviously much better, mind you) which are then talked about by the Socialist leadership, and not in a completely negative way. Journalists like Éric Zemmour, who is somewhat openly racist, are broadcast on mainstream TV whereas on America we wouldn't get that stuff even on Fox News.

It is clear that our very Manichaean and legalistic approach to free speech does not actually foster the kind of thing classical liberals would have hoped. Instead, I hold, it promotes censorship by the journalists instead of by the state. American journalists have this idea of themselves as "gatekeepers" precisely because the government doesn't serve that role, which is a necessary one. As a result, we get people "censoring" way more things than should be.

On the same point, I don't think it should be wrong that someone gets fined for posting something insensitive. Words have consequences, as they say. They don't exist in their own sphere.

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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:07 pm

That's a ridiculous conclusion. It doesn't follow at all.
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Of Leben
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Postby Of Leben » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:09 pm

The problem with this view is that often times censorship only goes one way- leftists can get away with saying terrible things pretty often as long as they use the word "revolution." I'd be all fine for the censorship if there was a consistent standard being applied to both sides. If the same standard was applied to the left, we'd see large swaths of the current college faculty expelled from their positions for being Marxists or Marxist sympathizers.

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Postby Ifreann » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:09 pm

Werpman wrote:One thing that has always puzzled me is my fellow citizens' (especially right-wing ones) belief that Europe has a less free public conversation because of their lack of something similar to the First Amendment. On the contrary, it seems as if this has made public discourse more free.

If you look at France for example, you have writers like Michel Houellebecq writing books (some people might find) similar to the Turner Diaries (but obviously much better, mind you) which are then talked about by the Socialist leadership, and not in a completely negative way. Journalists like Éric Zemmour, who is somewhat openly racist, are broadcast on mainstream TV whereas on America we wouldn't get that stuff even on Fox News.

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Werpman
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Postby Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:09 pm

Cekoviu wrote:That's a ridiculous conclusion. It doesn't follow at all.

It's demonstrably true that more voices are expressed in the media in Europe than in the US.

Peter Sloterdijk, a long-running tv show host in Germany, is a supporter of eugenics. And this is Germany! Can you imagine such a thing in the US?
Last edited by Werpman on Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Werpman
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Postby Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:11 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Werpman wrote:One thing that has always puzzled me is my fellow citizens' (especially right-wing ones) belief that Europe has a less free public conversation because of their lack of something similar to the First Amendment. On the contrary, it seems as if this has made public discourse more free.

If you look at France for example, you have writers like Michel Houellebecq writing books (some people might find) similar to the Turner Diaries (but obviously much better, mind you) which are then talked about by the Socialist leadership, and not in a completely negative way. Journalists like Éric Zemmour, who is somewhat openly racist, are broadcast on mainstream TV whereas on America we wouldn't get that stuff even on Fox News.

Image

Yea they occasionally bring some dumb guy on and then throw them off or the whole thing becomes a fight a la Geraldo Rivera.

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Postby Ifreann » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:11 pm

Werpman wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:That's a ridiculous conclusion. It doesn't follow at all.

It's demonstrably true that more voices are expressed in the media in Europe than in the US.

Peter Sloterdijk, a guy who hosted a philosophy tv show in Germany, is a supporter of eugenics. And this is Germany! Can you imagine such a thing in the US?

America was practising eugenics until relatively recently.
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:13 pm

Werpman wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:That's a ridiculous conclusion. It doesn't follow at all.

It's demonstrably true that more voices are expressed in the media in Europe than in the US.

Peter Sloterdijk, a long-running tv show host in Germany, is a supporter of eugenics. And this is Germany! Can you imagine such a thing in the US?

Easily.
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Werpman
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Postby Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:13 pm

Of Leben wrote:The problem with this view is that often times censorship only goes one way- leftists can get away with saying terrible things pretty often as long as they use the word "revolution." I'd be all fine for the censorship if there was a consistent standard being applied to both sides. If the same standard was applied to the left, we'd see large swaths of the current college faculty expelled from their positions for being Marxists or Marxist sympathizers.

The thing is censorship is de facto occurring anyway if a "diverse range of ideas" (and I personally don't want that completely either, there have to be some limits) is what you really want to see. The whole American way of looking at things is wrong.

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Samadhi
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Postby Samadhi » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:13 pm

Wait are we measuring the breadth of discussion in a country by the breadth of discussion in the media?

When has the media been representative?
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Werpman
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Postby Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:14 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Werpman wrote:It's demonstrably true that more voices are expressed in the media in Europe than in the US.

Peter Sloterdijk, a long-running tv show host in Germany, is a supporter of eugenics. And this is Germany! Can you imagine such a thing in the US?

Easily.

No.

Not even Tucker openly expresses racism. And mind you, I consider Fox News not completely mainstream. It's more like a mix between fringe conspiracy theories, propaganda, and legitimate news at this point.
Last edited by Werpman on Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Ifreann » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:16 pm

Werpman wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Image

Yea they occasionally bring some dumb guy on and then throw them off or the whole thing becomes a fight a la Geraldo Rivera.

So your position here is that American television doesn't broadcast open racists, except they do sometimes.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:18 pm

Werpman wrote:One thing that has always puzzled me is my fellow citizens' (especially right-wing ones) belief that Europe has a less free public conversation because of their lack of something similar to the First Amendment. On the contrary, it seems as if this has made public discourse more free.

If you look at France for example, you have writers like Michel Houellebecq writing books (some people might find) similar to the Turner Diaries (but obviously much better, mind you) which are then talked about by the Socialist leadership, and not in a completely negative way. Journalists like Éric Zemmour, who is somewhat openly racist, are broadcast on mainstream TV whereas on America we wouldn't get that stuff even on Fox News.

It is clear that our very Manichaean and legalistic approach to free speech does not actually foster the kind of thing classical liberals would have hoped. Instead, I hold, it promotes censorship by the journalists instead of by the state. American journalists have this idea of themselves as "gatekeepers" precisely because the government doesn't serve that role, which is a necessary one. As a result, we get people "censoring" way more things than should be.

On the same point, I don't think it should be wrong that someone gets fined for posting something insensitive. Words have consequences, as they say. They don't exist in their own sphere.

What say you NSG?


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Werpman
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Postby Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:18 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Werpman wrote:Yea they occasionally bring some dumb guy on and then throw them off or the whole thing becomes a fight a la Geraldo Rivera.

So your position here is that American television doesn't broadcast open racists, except they do sometimes.

When they do it's not about discussion but creating a circus show.

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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:20 pm

Werpman wrote:
Ifreann wrote:So your position here is that American television doesn't broadcast open racists, except they do sometimes.

When they do it's not about discussion but creating a circus show.


As long as it keeps the masses and normies distracted from certain mechanizations in the background it fulfills it purpose. :^)
Last edited by Nakena on Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:21 pm

Werpman wrote:
Ifreann wrote:So your position here is that American television doesn't broadcast open racists, except they do sometimes.

When they do it's not about discussion but creating a circus show.

Richard Spencer was brought on to CNN to give a white nationalist perspective on Trump and his Twitter shitposting.
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:26 pm

I'm European and don't find Americans to have restrictions on free speech because of the 1st amendment.

Europe has free speech, but most countries (can't speak for all) don't allow hate speech aka speech that promotes violence.

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Postby Necroghastia » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:47 pm

Eh, I don't see how.
Of Leben wrote:The problem with this view is that often times censorship only goes one way- leftists can get away with saying terrible things pretty often as long as they use the word "revolution." I'd be all fine for the censorship if there was a consistent standard being applied to both sides. If the same standard was applied to the left, we'd see large swaths of the current college faculty expelled from their positions for being Marxists or Marxist sympathizers.

what the hell is this nonsense lmao
Last edited by Necroghastia on Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:49 pm

-Ocelot- wrote:I'm European and don't find Americans to have restrictions on free speech because of the 1st amendment.

Europe has free speech, but most countries (can't speak for all) don't allow hate speech aka speech that promotes violence.


The problem when those laws or the mere threat of it are being abused for questionable political purposes or to placete certain sentiments. For example the events in the UK.

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Postby USS Monitor » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:50 pm

I don't think the 1st amendment is why the American media is crap. It's just crap because it's crap.
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Postby Aureumterra » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:53 pm

As someone who follows US politics closer than most Europeans and watches way too much American media, I can confirm that there’s barely any difference regarding what gets said and what doesn’t. The first amendment stops laws that limit speech from being passed though
Last edited by Aureumterra on Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The East Marches II
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Postby The East Marches II » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:53 pm

Its a thought provoking question but given we are an Anglo nation, we would inevitably fall to the nonsense that has twitter posts getting people arrested. Restrictions on speech haven't kept the British journalistic class from total bankruptcy, nor has it made their discourse any better. You are using a single country with an incompatible culture to the States to make your point. Thought provoking yes but still not relevant. Words are just words. They don't shoot you, stab you or do any other magic thing. The terror our friends on the continent have for a certain ideology speaks to their fear that they will never be able to fight it without the state to weigh things for them. It doesn't speak well to their long term stability.

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Postby Vetalia » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:04 pm

I think the bigger problem is the utterly insane degree of media consolidation in the United States which means there is de-facto censorship in place due to the amount of control exercised by a handful of media conglomerates over the majority of mainstream media. While there are a lot of solid alternative voices and viewpoints available via sources like the internet, they also inadvertently get lumped in with a lot of fringe/extreme views so they get discredited along with the rest.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:07 pm

No, the first amendment is a positive in allowing free speech. Pity it isnt enforced more.
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Postby Kernen » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:27 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:No, the first amendment is a positive in allowing free speech. Pity it isnt enforced more.

I mean, the free speech clause is probably the most enforced aspect of the 1st Amendment, which is already routinely litigated.
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