by Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:04 pm
by Of Leben » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:09 pm
by Ifreann » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:09 pm
Werpman wrote:One thing that has always puzzled me is my fellow citizens' (especially right-wing ones) belief that Europe has a less free public conversation because of their lack of something similar to the First Amendment. On the contrary, it seems as if this has made public discourse more free.
If you look at France for example, you have writers like Michel Houellebecq writing books (some people might find) similar to the Turner Diaries (but obviously much better, mind you) which are then talked about by the Socialist leadership, and not in a completely negative way. Journalists like Éric Zemmour, who is somewhat openly racist, are broadcast on mainstream TV whereas on America we wouldn't get that stuff even on Fox News.
by Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:09 pm
Cekoviu wrote:That's a ridiculous conclusion. It doesn't follow at all.
by Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:11 pm
Ifreann wrote:Werpman wrote:One thing that has always puzzled me is my fellow citizens' (especially right-wing ones) belief that Europe has a less free public conversation because of their lack of something similar to the First Amendment. On the contrary, it seems as if this has made public discourse more free.
If you look at France for example, you have writers like Michel Houellebecq writing books (some people might find) similar to the Turner Diaries (but obviously much better, mind you) which are then talked about by the Socialist leadership, and not in a completely negative way. Journalists like Éric Zemmour, who is somewhat openly racist, are broadcast on mainstream TV whereas on America we wouldn't get that stuff even on Fox News.
by Ifreann » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:11 pm
Werpman wrote:Cekoviu wrote:That's a ridiculous conclusion. It doesn't follow at all.
It's demonstrably true that more voices are expressed in the media in Europe than in the US.
Peter Sloterdijk, a guy who hosted a philosophy tv show in Germany, is a supporter of eugenics. And this is Germany! Can you imagine such a thing in the US?
by Cekoviu » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:13 pm
Werpman wrote:Cekoviu wrote:That's a ridiculous conclusion. It doesn't follow at all.
It's demonstrably true that more voices are expressed in the media in Europe than in the US.
Peter Sloterdijk, a long-running tv show host in Germany, is a supporter of eugenics. And this is Germany! Can you imagine such a thing in the US?
by Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:13 pm
Of Leben wrote:The problem with this view is that often times censorship only goes one way- leftists can get away with saying terrible things pretty often as long as they use the word "revolution." I'd be all fine for the censorship if there was a consistent standard being applied to both sides. If the same standard was applied to the left, we'd see large swaths of the current college faculty expelled from their positions for being Marxists or Marxist sympathizers.
by Samadhi » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:13 pm
by Werpman » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:14 pm
by Ifreann » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:16 pm
by Nakena » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:18 pm
Werpman wrote:One thing that has always puzzled me is my fellow citizens' (especially right-wing ones) belief that Europe has a less free public conversation because of their lack of something similar to the First Amendment. On the contrary, it seems as if this has made public discourse more free.
If you look at France for example, you have writers like Michel Houellebecq writing books (some people might find) similar to the Turner Diaries (but obviously much better, mind you) which are then talked about by the Socialist leadership, and not in a completely negative way. Journalists like Éric Zemmour, who is somewhat openly racist, are broadcast on mainstream TV whereas on America we wouldn't get that stuff even on Fox News.
It is clear that our very Manichaean and legalistic approach to free speech does not actually foster the kind of thing classical liberals would have hoped. Instead, I hold, it promotes censorship by the journalists instead of by the state. American journalists have this idea of themselves as "gatekeepers" precisely because the government doesn't serve that role, which is a necessary one. As a result, we get people "censoring" way more things than should be.
On the same point, I don't think it should be wrong that someone gets fined for posting something insensitive. Words have consequences, as they say. They don't exist in their own sphere.
What say you NSG?
by Nakena » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:20 pm
by Ifreann » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:21 pm
by -Ocelot- » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:26 pm
by Necroghastia » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:47 pm
Of Leben wrote:The problem with this view is that often times censorship only goes one way- leftists can get away with saying terrible things pretty often as long as they use the word "revolution." I'd be all fine for the censorship if there was a consistent standard being applied to both sides. If the same standard was applied to the left, we'd see large swaths of the current college faculty expelled from their positions for being Marxists or Marxist sympathizers.
by Nakena » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:49 pm
-Ocelot- wrote:I'm European and don't find Americans to have restrictions on free speech because of the 1st amendment.
Europe has free speech, but most countries (can't speak for all) don't allow hate speech aka speech that promotes violence.
by USS Monitor » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:50 pm
by Aureumterra » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:53 pm
by The East Marches II » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:53 pm
by Vetalia » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:04 pm
by Ethel mermania » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:07 pm
by Kernen » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:27 pm
Ethel mermania wrote:No, the first amendment is a positive in allowing free speech. Pity it isnt enforced more.
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