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[SUBMIT'D] Limiting Private Involvement in the Prison System

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Free Santa Rosa
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Founded: Sep 23, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Free Santa Rosa » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:55 am

OOC: working on getting that rn.

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Refuge Isle
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Founded: Dec 14, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Refuge Isle » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:03 am

I see that this has been submitted, but I haven't seen that CD agreed to be listed as a co-author, especially showing as being last active before this draft was first written. I'll pass on approving this, because that's some spooky false advertisement/endorsement. After the fact is not when you ask permission.

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Kenmoria
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:07 am

Refuge Isle wrote:I see that this has been submitted, but I haven't seen that CD agreed to be listed as a co-author, especially showing as being last active before this draft was first written. I'll pass on approving this, because that's some spooky false advertisement/endorsement. After the fact is not when you ask permission.

(OOC: I fully agree with this, both on the ideal time for permission to have been sought, and the lack of interaction CD has had with this draft. Author, what has Christian Democrats contributed to this proposal?)
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Youssath
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Youssath » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:10 pm

Kenmoria wrote:
Refuge Isle wrote:I see that this has been submitted, but I haven't seen that CD agreed to be listed as a co-author, especially showing as being last active before this draft was first written. I'll pass on approving this, because that's some spooky false advertisement/endorsement. After the fact is not when you ask permission.

(OOC: I fully agree with this, both on the ideal time for permission to have been sought, and the lack of interaction CD has had with this draft. Author, what has Christian Democrats contributed to this proposal?)

He has provided elements from Clause 5 to 8, where it is directly sourced from the now redundant GAR #468. We will continue to work things out and give you all an update on the development of this situation.

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Marxist Germany
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Marxist Germany » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:32 pm

Youssath wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: I fully agree with this, both on the ideal time for permission to have been sought, and the lack of interaction CD has had with this draft. Author, what has Christian Democrats contributed to this proposal?)

He has provided elements from Clause 5 to 8, where it is directly sourced from the now redundant GAR #468. We will continue to work things out and give you all an update on the development of this situation.

OOC: You can reword the clauses to avoid this problem.
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Bananaistan
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Postby Bananaistan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:22 pm

Marxist Germany wrote:
Youssath wrote:He has provided elements from Clause 5 to 8, where it is directly sourced from the now redundant GAR #468. We will continue to work things out and give you all an update on the development of this situation.

OOC: You can reword the clauses to avoid this problem.


Cough.

Bananaistan wrote:OOC: There's no plagiarism with CD's resolution, I'm not concerned about that. What may be an issue is putting someone's name on something without receiving permission to do so.
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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:44 pm

OOC: I strongly suggest you withdraw the proposal since you have not campaigned for it, and remove CDs name, if Gensec sees there is no plagiarism (there really isnt after further inspection), you can proceed with it.
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Author of GA#461, and GA#470

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Maowi
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maowi » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:40 am

OOC: I also recommend withdrawal. I have a couple of points that you could consider.
Free Santa Rosa wrote:The General Assembly,

Noting that GA#470 repealed GA#468, Prohibit Private Prisons, citing valid points as to the latter's weaknesses,

Optimistic that the ratification of this improved resolution can at least promote a minimum standard of living of inmates to ensure proper rehabilitation and reconciliation for their crimes,

Concerned, however, that the extreme harm caused by profit-driven recidivism raised in GA#468 are left unaddressed due to the repeal,

Quoting in particular, "Recognizing that capitalism promotes and that business enterprises pursue the acquisition of repeat customers and the maximization of profits," and "Deeply concerned that capitalism, in the context of prisons, creates perverse incentives to increase recidivism rates (more repeat customers) and to increase public expenditures on prisons (greater profit maximization), contrary to legitimate penological goals and the general welfare,"

Hereby,
1. Defines for the purposes of this resolution:
  1. a "prison" as any correctional or detention center that holds or houses, on a permanent or long term basis individuals who have been convicted of crimes and are serving criminal sentences, why only on a long term basis? are prisoners with shorter sentences not deserving of the same standards? Also, what about those awaiting trial or a verdict? If I remember correctly, that last point was brought up in the repeal
  2. "private enterprise" as any individual or group not affiliated with the state, who owns or stakes part-ownership of any business, industry, service, or activity which directly affects the economy and is run for profit,
  3. a "private prison" as a prison that is owned or partly-owned by a private enterprise, or a prison primarily or wholly owned by the state but is leased to a private enterprise for profit, It's always a bit hard with this sort of stuff, but I think repeating 'a prison' makes it look like nations can choose between the two potential definitions. I think that would be solved by removing the second mention of 'a prison'
2. Requires all WA member states and their political subdivisions, at the date of this resolution's effectivity, to establish a national plan that will: 'effectivity' means how effective something is. I don't think this is correct usage. I'd recommend replacing with 'passage'. Also, you should probably include an explicit requirement somewhere for member nations to act upon the plan without wasting time
  1. Terminate the construction of any new private prisons;
  2. End any lease contracts of state-owned or public prisons to private enterprise;
  3. Ensure that any existing private prisons no longer confer profit to a private enterprise, by virtue of nationalization through eminent domain, or by any other means deemed necessary and acceptable by member states; and
  4. Ensure that the general well-being, recidivism rates and performance of any existing private prisons must be better or match the average standards of a public prison with a deviation of no more than 10% either within the political constituencies, provinces or by nationwide; how are you measuring the 'average standards of a public prison' in a quantifiable way where you can find 10%? This is a genuine question ... although if you can't answer it that's something to think about
3. Prohibits all WA member states from the engaging in the following:
  1. Pursuant to clause 4(a), allowing private enterprises to earn profit by virtue of being a part-owner of a prison; and
  2. Engaging in partnerships with foreign states to lease out prisons and in turn, making a profit off said relationship;
4. Limits private enterprise in WA member states to engaging with the prison system in the following:
  1. Majority or full ownership of a prison, provided that no profit is made;
  2. Construction and maintenance work of the prison and its environs;
  3. Staffing and manpower services auxiliary staff not necessary to the continued operation of the prison, such as janitorial staff, cafeteria staff, and so on; and
  4. Consultation and research;
5. Also requires that should clause 2, 3 or 4 of this resolution or any part thereof be breached, member nations are obliged to send a written notice to all relevant parties of the private prison to address the violation and its potential consequences;

6. Mandates all member nations, pursuant to clause 5, to impose and enforce immediate financial penalties relative to the prison or private enterprise's gross income flow to make further prison operations unprofitable to non-compliant private enterprises;

7. Clarifies that the resolution shall not extend to apply to private probation, home detention, and other similar practices deemed by the member states through the use of private properties or entities in the legal justice system; and

8. Declares that member states and their political subdivisions may by right impose, on the right conferred by clause 5 and 6, such exemptions as it considers necessary or expedient in the interest of national security and public order, such as national disasters, on a temporary basis if necessary for the safety, health, or welfare of prisoners. can you lose the bolding? :(

Co-authored by Christian Democrats, Youssath!

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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:49 am

The real question for American lawyers and law students is... Is "Submit'd" a proper Bluebook abbreviation?

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Marxist Germany
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Marxist Germany » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:36 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:The real question for American lawyers and law students is... Is "Submit'd" a proper Bluebook abbreviation?

OOC: I am not a lawyer, but it is correct considering had not is abbreviated hadn't, and do not is don't etc.
Country represents RL views mostly. Not Marxist anymore.
Author of GA#461, and GA#470

Ex-delegate of The United Federations; citizen of 10000 Islands | Gaming User#0721(Discord)
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Great Nortend
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Postby Great Nortend » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:22 am

Those are contractions, not abbreviations. That is, 'do not' and 'had not' are each two words. 'Submitted' is one word.
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Marxist Germany
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Marxist Germany » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:00 am

Great Nortend wrote:Those are contractions, not abbreviations. That is, 'do not' and 'had not' are each two words. 'Submitted' is one word.

OOC: Yes they are contractions, my bad
Country represents RL views mostly. Not Marxist anymore.
Author of GA#461, and GA#470

Ex-delegate of The United Federations; citizen of 10000 Islands | Gaming User#0721(Discord)
RP name: Germany
The National Factbook (WIP)
Ambassador Klaus Schmidt
Political Compass
PolitiStates Result
Pro:Laissez-faire, Nationalism, Guns, Free speech, Christianity, Same-sex marriage, United Ireland.
Anti:Extreme Progressivism, Abortion, Socialism, Interventionism, Mass-migration.
A high school student aged 15 from Ireland, living in Co. Dublin. Interested in politics, gaming, and history.

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The New Nordic Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The New Nordic Union » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:10 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:The real question for American lawyers and law students is... Is "Submit'd" a proper Bluebook abbreviation?


OOC: Looking at other Bluebook abbreviations of words starting in sub-, I have a feeling it should be submitt.
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Wayneactia
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Wayneactia » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:03 pm

Seems this is not going to achieve quorum. Probably for the best.

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Youssath
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Youssath » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:33 am

Withdraw the resolution, Free Santa Rosa. There are prominent flaws in the resolution that needs to be addressed and I think to campaign before submitting a proposal and to win over Marxist Germany's support should be prioritized here.

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Kenmoria
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:41 am

(OOC: Santa Rosa, did you campaign for the proposal? If so, how?)
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Great Nortend
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Great Nortend » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:21 am

It still seems rather vague as to whether private prisons are allowed. Why should private prisons (which presumably can only exist if they are non-profit) be held to higher standards than public prisons? Honest question.
News from Great Nortend: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=417866
Tourism and Q&A thread: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=458726
Diplomacy, Embassies &c.: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=417865
If you have any questions about Great Nortend, please ask in the diplomacy thread above.

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Youssath
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Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Youssath » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:17 am

Great Nortend wrote:It still seems rather vague as to whether private prisons are allowed. Why should private prisons (which presumably can only exist if they are non-profit) be held to higher standards than public prisons? Honest question.

"If it pleases you, ambassador, may I redirect you to another version of this resolution to gather your feedback on this matter? I intend to try to incorporate more elements from the LPP into the LPIP, so that this will win through the masses here."

"Also, private prisons already have a monetary incentive to take up more inmates as compared to public prisons - since they do receive grants from receiving inmates - and we understand that some private corporations might take up this opportunity to "over-capacitate" themselves to receive greater funding from the government. This ultimately hurts the well-being and welfare of the prisoners as a whole, and while we do believe that there are honest private prisons out there enforcing moral business standards and ethics for this type of industry, we want to ensure that the standards are kept by legislation - in order to bring deterrence to non-compliant firms trying to compromise the well-being of the prisoners and the main goals of rehabilitation for their own monetary benefit."

Maowi wrote:How are you measuring the 'average standards of a public prison' in a quantifiable way where you can find 10%? This is a genuine question ... although if you can't answer it that's something to think about.

"As stated before, ambassador. We will use quantifiable means to get our data such as recidivism rates and any other possible rating or score by national agencies that determine the performance of prisons as a whole. We certainly don't wish to go down the path of creating another international agency to rate prisons and having to legislate everything, do we?"

Maowi wrote:can you lose the bolding? :(

*takes out sharpie marker*
"I will draw on every international legislation as I please, ambassador!"
Last edited by Youssath on Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Wayneactia
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Wayneactia » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:18 am

Youssath wrote:Withdraw the resolution, Free Santa Rosa. There are prominent flaws in the resolution that needs to be addressed and I think to campaign before submitting a proposal and to win over Marxist Germany's support should be prioritized here.


Please explain when MG became so damn important? He is one vote and that is it. He has zero sway over anyone that could make this a reality.

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Bears Armed
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Anarchy

Postby Bears Armed » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:24 am

Youssath wrote:"Also, private prisons already have a monetary incentive to take up more inmates as compared to public prisons - since they do receive grants from receiving inmates - and we understand that some private corporations might take up this opportunity to "over-capacitate" themselves to receive greater funding from the government. This ultimately hurts the well-being and welfare of the prisoners as a whole"

"On the other paw, some governments might -- as you phrase it -- 'over-capacitate' the prisons that they themselves own and operate in order to economise on the construction budget... so might not a proposal against overcrowding in both categories of prison serve better?"

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Youssath
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Youssath » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:45 pm

Bears Armed wrote:
Youssath wrote:"Also, private prisons already have a monetary incentive to take up more inmates as compared to public prisons - since they do receive grants from receiving inmates - and we understand that some private corporations might take up this opportunity to "over-capacitate" themselves to receive greater funding from the government. This ultimately hurts the well-being and welfare of the prisoners as a whole"

"On the other paw, some governments might -- as you phrase it -- 'over-capacitate' the prisons that they themselves own and operate in order to economise on the construction budget... so might not a proposal against overcrowding in both categories of prison serve better?"

Hwa Sue,
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"I would be concerned about that fact as well, however, my delegation has informed me about those scenarios that you have mentioned earlier will be in violation of GAR #194: Treatment Of Inmates. In clause 2(a), it is a requirement for all member nations to at least provide "sufficient and appropriate living space" for all detainees and convicts. Hence, I do not think it is necessarily something for us to worry about regarding government prisons until a later time since GAR #194 effectively provides minimum standards for all prisoners at the very least, although I will say that an "expansion" on prison standards might be considered at a later date."

"As for why we should concern ourselves with private prisons on 'over-crowding', private corporations already have an incentive to take in more prisoners as compared to the government due to national grants and incentives, and it may lead to future lobbying or a "very re-definition" of the minimal standards for all prisoners in order to accommodate more inmates for their own short-term benefit. While this may not affect prisoners greatly given GAR #194, it may cause the prison to be unable to focus on the rehabilitation of all prisoners given the large volume of inmates (unless prison management is expanded, but that is not a requirement since it means more costs), and this will ultimately challenge the very goals of having a prison in the first place - which is to allow offenders to reflect on themselves for their crimes and to become good moral citizens of the global world."

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Liberimery
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Anarchy

Postby Liberimery » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:32 am

So a private prison that is operating in a WA member state can not legally over capacitate their facilities to maximize a fictional pet head rate of pay for inmates. If they do this than that nation is in breach of a resolution and we now return to the conflict that banning private prisons is in violation of laws blocking intrastate commerce regulations.

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Aclion
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Aclion » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:42 am

At what point would a prison be considered overcapacitated? If we understand it to be when the prison cannot provide for prisoners needs, health safety shelter nourishment, then overcapacitated prisons would already be a violation of existing resolutions.

Wayneactia wrote:
Youssath wrote:Withdraw the resolution, Free Santa Rosa. There are prominent flaws in the resolution that needs to be addressed and I think to campaign before submitting a proposal and to win over Marxist Germany's support should be prioritized here.


Please explain when MG became so damn important? He is one vote and that is it. He has zero sway over anyone that could make this a reality.

Because he does have sway. He's WA member of 10000 islands, and one of the few active in GA affairs, as am I. Now I'm already against these resolutions as a matter of course for reason brought up before, so you can count on me agitating against. If we're both opposed to the resolution you can be fairly certain it will be voted down on the region's forum, and our delegate respects the results of those votes. This means that while MG does have just one vote he's(in this specific context) effectively a gatekeeper to 287 votes.
Last edited by Aclion on Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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