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Islam Is Right About Women

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What is your hot take on this issue?

Islam is correct about the nature and role of women in society, and these attitudes are compatible with modern feminism and Western social mores.
15
3%
Islam is correct about the nature and role of women in society, but these attitudes/truths are incompatible with modern feminism and Western social mores.
30
6%
Islam's attitudes regarding women are regressive and problematic, and do not belong in modern Western society.
211
44%
The statement lacks sufficient nuance and thus I can neither confirm nor deny its accuracy.
67
14%
Fahran, why are you wasting your time writing lengthy posts about /pol/?
95
20%
I'm a sea sponge and have no opinion on this issue.
45
9%
I'm noncommital and thus want an "other" option.
21
4%
 
Total votes : 484

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Fahran
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Islam Is Right About Women

Postby Fahran » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:17 am

In a scheme ostensibly conceived by users of 4chan's /pol/ board, fliers declaring "Islam Is Right About Women" have begun appearing across Massachussetts. These have sparked a multitude of reactions, mostly ranging from offense to confusion. It is suspected that this is a bit of right-wing and/or Islamophobic trolling intended to reveal the inherent contradictions that allegedly pervade left-wing thought on issues relating to Islam and feminism. Specifically, offense generated from this can be interpreted to confirm that progressives and feminists do not genuinely believe that Islam can fit neatly into a progressive and inclusive worldview.

Of course, the counter-argument is that these fliers amount to a dog-whistle that stigmatizes and others local Muslims while not contributing to any meaningful dialogue on or critique of patriarchal social mores and rigid gender norms within Muslim institutions and society. For their part, the majority of Muslims who have been interviewed by local media outlets have reacted with confusion and/or magnanimity, assuming good intentions where it is likely none are present. One preacher stated that he hoped the fliers would encourage members of the community to do research on Islam's attitudes towards women and that this would serve to dispel bigotry and harmful stereotypes.

As a quick aside, while this story would arguably fit with the theme of the Islamic Discussion Thread or the Feminist Thread, I felt that it represented a unique intersection of issues such as Islam, feminism, racism/bigotry, progressive, and right-wing thought and that we could explore those ideas with greater flexibility by setting aside a thread for it.

So NSG what do all y'all think about this? Does it highlight the hypocrisy of the political left and reveal that progressives often hold more negative attitudes about Islam and Islamic religious doctrine in private than they let on? Is it simply a bunch of dog-whistles fueled by confirmation bias and Islamophobia? Is Islam right about the nature and role of women? How would this translate to other religious traditions?

As it's customary and polite to offer your opinion as OP, I'll give it a go. I tend to perceive Islam in much the same way as I perceive Judaism or Christianity, albeit conceding that it is more often at odds with liberal conceptions of the world and a good many of the social mores that have come to predominate in the West. As a traditionalist of sorts, I'm often somewhat sympathetic to rejections or critiques of modernity and hyper-individualism. That said, I'm inclined to assert that I don't necessarily agree with the statement "Islam Is Right About Women" because I'm not a Muslim and, beyond that, Islam is as broad as most religions and a variety of opinions exist within it. I do think this campaign unnecessarily singles out Muslims and that it doesn't really serve as an effective critique of the more problematic attitudes towards women and femininity in the Ummah, but that the aim was more geared towards "owning the libs."

What say you?

https://www.boston25news.com/news/-isla ... /987837653
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/islam-is ... bout-women
https://wSourww.spiked-online.com/2019/ ... men-stunt/
Last edited by Fahran on Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:21 am

Btw, this thread seems to have been posted twice.

Link to other thread: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=472757
Last edited by LiberNovusAmericae on Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Blueflarst
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Postby Blueflarst » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:23 am

Islam is used by the liberal left as battle horse againist the chirstian west values.

Obviously they dislike your values towards the women and other attitudes.

They just ignore it trying to manipulate the islam peoples againist the christianism.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:25 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Btw, this thread seems to have been posted twice.

Link to other thread: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=472757

Fixed. My computer has been acting wonky.

Also, thank you.
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Syeadeshistania
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Postby Syeadeshistania » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:26 am

Of course it is 4chan, always fucking 4chan. I as a Muslim, personally believe that feminism in many countries such as the USA and Canada is simply unneeded as women already have equal rights to men. Islam is not patriarchal, Muslim women often don't wear hijabs or burqas.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:28 am

Islam's attitudes regarding women are regressive and problematic,

True.
and do not belong in modern Western society.

Mmmm, slow down there buckaroo.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:28 am

I thought a Jew wouldn't let /pol/ live in her head rent-free.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:29 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:I thought a Jew wouldn't let /pol/ live in her head rent-free.

Who says I'm letting them live there rent-free? A girl's gotta pay for textbooks somehow. :p
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:31 am

I don't see any reason to over analyse this. It is just the alt-right trying to cause offense. By stopped clock, they are right about one thing, many forms of Islam are antithetical to progressive or even classical liberal values.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:32 am

Just braindead trolling from people that don't grasp the concept of tolerance. Islam doesn't have to be "right" for Muslims to be allowed to practice it without facing religious discrimination.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:34 am

A more clever troll campaign than most. You can tell that a little bit of thought went into it.

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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Islam's attitudes regarding women are regressive and problematic,

True.
and do not belong in modern Western society.

Mmmm, slow down there buckaroo.

The ideologies about women and GSMs that are prevalent in Islam should definitely not belong in modern western society. That goes for all other religions that have the same beliefs as well.

If those religions jettison those beliefs they can then stay
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Postby South Central South-Park » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:36 am

Having 4 wives would be pretty kickass, and not having to let them vote or speak sure would save a lot of headache and prevent bad legislation from passing. The left always want us to make minorities feel included and want us to change our society to better suit them. So why not bring in some of these changes, that would make em feel much more integrated im sure.

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:36 am

Blueflarst wrote:Islam is used by the liberal left as battle horse againist the chirstian west values.

I wouldn't quite go that far.

Blueflarst wrote:Obviously they dislike your values towards the women and other attitudes.

It would depend on the Muslim, I presume. Wahhabis who believe it's acceptable to beat their wives would find me rather disagreeable. Someone who simply holds vaguely traditional notions about gender norms while accepting that women should be allowed to work and have rights, on the other hand, might well hold views similar to my own.

Blueflarst wrote:They just ignore it trying to manipulate the islam peoples againist the christianism.

What makes you believe so?
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:37 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Islam's attitudes regarding women are regressive and problematic,

True.
and do not belong in modern Western society.

Mmmm, slow down there buckaroo.

I mean, they don’t. Those aspects of Islam can stay the hell out, we’re struggling with the fundamentalists we already have as it is.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:39 am

Religion from thousands of years ago isn’t great with women. News at 11. Ban them all.

But since it’s pol, they probably have other motives at play.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:40 am

Syeadeshistania wrote:Of course it is 4chan, always fucking 4chan. I as a Muslim, personally believe that feminism in many countries such as the USA and Canada is simply unneeded as women already have equal rights to men. Islam is not patriarchal, Muslim women often don't wear hijabs or burqas.

Do you believe that a need for feminism exists in countries like Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Colombia, South Africa, Mexico, etc.? I'm inclined to disagree with the assertion that an Abrahamic religion is not patriarchal to some degree, especially given certain aspects present in sharia, halakha, and canon law and the text of scriptures. My own religious views, for instance, are somewhat patriarchal and ostensibly contradictory to my feminism in other arenas - such as women in the workplace and women's suffrage.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:41 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:I don't see any reason to over analyse this. It is just the alt-right trying to cause offense. By stopped clock, they are right about one thing, many forms of Islam are antithetical to progressive or even classical liberal values.

I mostly agree, I think. I went for the nuance answer and the answer questioning why I personally have no life.

USS Monitor wrote:Just braindead trolling from people that don't grasp the concept of tolerance. Islam doesn't have to be "right" for Muslims to be allowed to practice it without facing religious discrimination.

True. I do think that raw offense without an adequate rebuttal does leave /pol/ sitting a bit higher than they should. Hence my attempts to foster a discussion.
Last edited by Fahran on Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Greater Gilead
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Postby Greater Gilead » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:43 am

So, I have to say this carefully, but as a member of a religion that has gotten described as "regressive", "problematic", and "does not belong in western civilization", I will side with the fliers here. Whether it's tolling or not, and if so, from whoever it may be, the messenger does not define the message. Trying to force religions into the mold of "western civilization" will not work. If anything, it makes us more defensive to your ways.
Looking at what has already been posted in this thread, some people are visibly hostile to religions like mine. This is what I'm talking about. If an incompatibility exists, well, we've been around for two millennia. It wasn't us that created this incompatibility. It's the ones that changed.
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Pacomia
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Postby Pacomia » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:44 am

It's possible to acknowledge flaws in Islam while still supporting it-

I don't support it but it's possible
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:45 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:True.

Mmmm, slow down there buckaroo.

The ideologies about women and GSMs that are prevalent in Islam should definitely not belong in modern western society. That goes for all other religions that have the same beliefs as well.

If those religions jettison those beliefs they can then stay

There's multiple problems with that statement though. First, the frequently espoused argument that "Islam does not belong in modern Western society" has its roots in extreme racism, xenophobia, and religious intolerance. It really has nothing to do with the backwardness of religious tenets and more with hostility toward people who look too Arab or don't sufficiently approach the same religious camp as evangelical Protestantism. As you are most likely aware, evangelicals are, by and large, not exactly the most avid feminists. Second, I agree that religion is, in general, an obstacle to social progress. However, the idea of banning free belief and worship is even more antithetical to our expectations of a modern, free society (not to mention the more material issues that arise from banning nearly every form of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and probably various other major religions).
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:46 am

Greater Gilead wrote:So, I have to say this carefully, but as a member of a religion that has gotten described as "regressive", "problematic", and "does not belong in western civilization", I will side with the fliers here. Whether it's tolling or not, and if so, from whoever it may be, the messenger does not define the message. Trying to force religions into the mold of "western civilization" will not work. If anything, it makes us more defensive to your ways.
Looking at what has already been posted in this thread, some people are visibly hostile to religions like mine. This is what I'm talking about. If an incompatibility exists, well, we've been around for two millennia. It wasn't us that created this incompatibility. It's the ones that changed.

Unless your religion is Neolithic shamanism, you have no legs to stand on.
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Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
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As a Canadian? I find Americans and their deep, deep distrust of the government to be fundamentally, critically, laughably flawed. I find some aspects of your country completely absurd. The distrust of anything remotely resembling authority is one. The gun problem that stems from that is another.

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Satuga
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Postby Satuga » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:48 am

USS Monitor wrote:Just braindead trolling from people that don't grasp the concept of tolerance. Islam doesn't have to be "right" for Muslims to be allowed to practice it without facing religious discrimination.


In the middle east, equality is certainly a problem. Which is in part due to the unreformed religion of Islam, which is oppressive to women. Ofc this doesn't mean you should bash muslims for their faith alone, but if they agree with how women should be treated according to the Qura then they are a piece of shit. Honestly I feel like this is a similar situation to 4chan's "It's okay to be white." Which does point out the hypocrisy in some people Ideology and beliefs. All in all what they did wasn't bad or good.

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:48 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:The ideologies about women and GSMs that are prevalent in Islam should definitely not belong in modern western society. That goes for all other religions that have the same beliefs as well.

If those religions jettison those beliefs they can then stay

There's multiple problems with that statement though. First, the frequently espoused argument that "Islam does not belong in modern Western society" has its roots in extreme racism, xenophobia, and religious intolerance. It really has nothing to do with the backwardness of religious tenets and more with hostility toward people who look too Arab or don't sufficiently approach the same religious camp as evangelical Protestantism. As you are most likely aware, evangelicals are, by and large, not exactly the most avid feminists. Second, I agree that religion is, in general, an obstacle to social progress. However, the idea of banning free belief and worship is even more antithetical to our expectations of a modern, free society (not to mention the more material issues that arise from banning nearly every form of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and probably various other major religions).

I do want to chime in and state that the option included in the poll was not intended to suggest that we should necessarily ban speech or religious expression. I did deliberately use the language I've seen employed to describe Christianity and Islam in the past by atheists and Islamophobes because I believed it differentiated that option from the previous two and marked out a more opinionated position.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:48 am

Fahran wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:I don't see any reason to over analyse this. It is just the alt-right trying to cause offense. By stopped clock, they are right about one thing, many forms of Islam are antithetical to progressive or even classical liberal values.

I mostly agree, I think. I went for the nuance answer and the answer questioning why I personally have no life.

USS Monitor wrote:Just braindead trolling from people that don't grasp the concept of tolerance. Islam doesn't have to be "right" for Muslims to be allowed to practice it without facing religious discrimination.

True. I do think that raw offense without an adequate rebuttal does leave /pol/ sitting a bit higher than they should. Hence my attempts to foster a discussion.

I believe the offense was caused by a perceived dog-whistle that promotes anti-Muslim sentiment, not progressives secretly opposing Islamic values.
Last edited by LiberNovusAmericae on Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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