Why do we champion socialism/communism anyway?

[Nakena]

You didn't detail anything. It's the same thing you've said countless times. Anyone who's a Marxist is in an intellectual prison or something and the harsh realities that its analysis suggests stirs a feeling of discomfort in your belly, which makes it wrong for some reason.

Theres people who disagree with your worldview and your approach. I am one of them.

Meanwhile it's adherents keep treating it like it its an scientific truth, when argueing to me, rather than as mere perspective.

You have already firmly decided for the belief that Marxism is a mind-virus and nothing is gonna change your mind. You're not going to get the upper hand by accusing others of intellectual stubborness like you've been doing.

Yeah I was affected by its essence once before and it wasnt nice. I do not accusing anyone of intellectual stubborness. All I would say that some people are indoctrinated. Also thats a sad and blackpilled view. Thats all.

A twitter conservative, ah, probably a well known archetype or figure that settle your very own panopticon, I reckon? I must disappoint you, I am not even remotely related to their ilk.

I didn't make the comparison based on whether or not your beliefs have anything in common with them. It's your behavior that is just as obnoxious and self-congratulatory.

I'd take it as a compliment.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

Which communist war killed 80 million people lmao

Wasn't the USSR the ones using the one step back rule, where if you were to attempt to retreat you would be shot? With also the most military deaths, and civilian deaths? Communists were involved in WW2 if you didn't know, just because it wasn't a pure communist war doesn't mean they weren't involved.

The socialists were the one getting attacked by Hitler and the Axis Powers as part of the Nazis' "Crusade against Bolshevism", which they have rambled about in Mein Kampf for decades by then. The September 1st, 1939 attacks were instigated by Nazi Germany and the Slovak State, not the USSR, and the Allied Powers declared war on the Axis, thus kicking off World War II.

[Alexiandra]

Wasn't the USSR the ones using the one step back rule, where if you were to attempt to retreat you would be shot? With also the most military deaths, and civilian deaths? Communists were involved in WW2 if you didn't know, just because it wasn't a pure communist war doesn't mean they weren't involved.

The socialists were the one getting attacked by Hitler and the Axis Powers as part of the Nazis' "Crusade against Bolshevism", which they have rambled about in Mein Kampf for decades by then. The September 1st, 1939 attacks were instigated by Nazi Germany and the Slovak State, not the USSR, and the Allied Powers declared war on the Axis, thus kicking off World War II.

Stop teaching them basic history for free, I’m a communist but my generosity only extends to non-fascists

[Satuga]

Stop teaching them basic history for free, I’m a communist but my generosity only extends to non-fascists

Lol calling me fascist

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

Purging southern Europe of the untermensch to create a pure Roman nation.
Purging east Asia of the untermensch to create a pure Japanese nation.
Purging Spain of the untermensch to create a pure Spanish nation.
Purging America of the untermensch to create a pure "American" nation.

You're taking Nazi Idealism and projecting it onto different nations or Continents, what does this have to do with the fact Nazism and Fascism still aren't the same?

Do I really have to put this here again?
"Hitler and the Nazi Party in 1922 had praised the rise to power of Mussolini and sought a German-Italian alliance.[15] Upon Mussolini's rise to power, the Nazis declared their admiration and emulation of the Italian Fascists, with Nazi member Hermann Esser in November 1922 saying that "what a group of brave men in Italy have done, we can also do in Bavaria. We’ve also got Italy’s Mussolini: his name is Adolf Hitler".[15]

The second part of Hitler's Mein Kampf ("The National Socialist Movement", 1926) contains this passage:
"I conceived the profoundest admiration for the great man south of the Alps, who, full of ardent love for his people, made no pacts with the enemies of Italy, but strove for their annihilation by all ways and means. What will rank Mussolini among the great men of this earth is his determination not to share Italy with the Marxists, but to destroy internationalism and save the fatherland from it."

— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 622

In a 1931 interview, Hitler spoke admirably about Mussolini, commending Mussolini's racial origins as being the same as that of Germans and claimed at the time that Mussolini was capable of building an Italian Empire that would outdo the Roman Empire and that he supported Mussolini's endeavors, saying:
"They know that Benito Mussolini is constructing a colossal empire which will put the Roman Empire in the shade. We shall put up ... for his victories. Mussolini is a typical representative of our Alpine race..."

— Adolf Hitler, 1931.[16]"
Also here:

Kershaw, Ian (1999). Hitler 1889-1936: Hubris. Penguin. ISBN 978-0140133639.
Fulda, Bernhard. Press and Politics in the Weimar Republic. Oxford University Press, 2009. p. 65.
Carlsten, F. L. The Rise of Fascism. 2nd ed. University of California Press, 1982. p. 80.
David Jablonsky. The Nazi Party in Dissolution: Hitler and the Verbotzeit, 1923–1925. London; Totowa, NJ: Frank Cass and Company Ltd., 1989. pp. 20–26, 30
Hugh R. Trevor-Roper (ed.), Gerhard L. Weinberg (ed.). Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944: Secret Conversations. Enigma Books, 2008. p10
Cyprian Blamires, ed., World Fascism: A Historical Encyclopedia (Abc-Clio, 2006).
And as for the overview of European Fascism:
"However all regimes listed presented fascist influence through authoritarianism, use of organised paramilitaries/youth movements loyal to the state, propaganda and rhetoric that opposed liberalism, individualism, democracy, communism, etc, and built their economies around corporatism. These are all elements of governing popularised by Mussolini. The use of the Roman Salute and coloured shirt uniforms used by most of these regimes also shows how the aesthetics established by the National Fascist Party became adopted throughout Europe.

There were multiple regimes in Romania that were influenced by fascism. These include the National Christian Party under Octavian Goga (1938), Party of the Nation under Ion Gigurtu (1940) and the National Legionary State which was led by the Iron Guard under Horia Sima in conjunction with the Romanian military dictatorship under Ion Antonescu (1940-1941). The first two of these regimes were not completely fascist however used fascism to appeal to the growing far-right sympathies amongst the populace.[9]

Prior to and during the Second World War, Nazi Germany imposed numerous fascist/fascist related regimes across occupied Europe, these may not fully espouse the form of fascism established by Mussolini however they were authoritarian, nationalist, anti-communist and staunchly pro-Axis powers:[6]

The National Partnership in the Czech Republic under Emil Hácha (1939–1945)
The Slovak People's Party in Slovakia under Jozef Tiso (1939–1945)
The Vichy Regime supported by collaborationist parties (Marcel Bucard's Mouvement Franciste, Jacques Doriot's French Popular Party, Marcel Déat's National Popular Rally) and Joseph Darnand's Milice in France under Philippe Pétain and Pierre Laval (1940–1944)
The Ustaše in Croatia under Ante Pavelić (1941–1945)
The Collaborationist government supported by Georgios Kosmidis's National Union of Greece in Greece under Georgios Tsolakoglou, Konstantinos Logothetopoulos and Ioannis Rallis (1941–1944)
The Collaborationist Serbian military supported by Dimitrije Ljotić's Zbor in Serbia under Milan Nedić (1941–1944)
The Nasjonal Samling in Norway under Vidkun Quisling (1942–1945)
The Arrow Cross Party in Hungary under Ferenc Szálasi (1944–1945)
Konrad Henlein's Sudeten German Party, Anton Mussert's NSB, Léon Degrelle's Rexist Party and Staf De Clercq's VNV were also given significant power in occupied Europe.
There were also a number of political movements active in Europe that were influenced in part by some features of Mussolini's regime. These include: Le Faisceau, British Fascists, British Union of Fascists, Imperial Fascist League, Blueshirts, Breton National Party, Falange Española, National Syndicalist Movement, Verdinaso, Nationale Front, Greek National Socialist Party, Vlajka, National Fascist Community, ONR-Falanga, Patriotic People's Movement, Pērkonkrusts, Union of Bulgarian National Legions, Ratniks and the Russian Fascist Party (based in Manchuria).[6]

Prominent figures associated with European fascism outside of the Axis include Oswald Mosley, Rotha Lintorn-Orman, José Antonio Primo de Rivera, Joris Van Severen, Corneliu Zelea Codreanu, Francisco Rolão Preto, Hristo Lukov, Aleksandar Tsankov, Bolesław Piasecki, Radola Gajda, Eoin O'Duffy, Sven Olov Lindholm, Vihtori Kosola and Konstantin Rodzaevsky.

Other right-wing to far-right political parties such as the German National People's Party, CEDA, Party of Hungarian Life and the Fatherland League lacked the ideology of fascism but adopted some fascist characteristics. Far-right politicians like Alfred Hugenberg, José María Gil-Robles and Gyula Gömbös represent fascism's influence on the right with these leaders adopting an ultra-nationalist and authoritarian rhetoric influenced by Mussolini and later Hitler's successes.

The nationalism espoused by these groups contrasted the internationalist focus of communism; there was little coordination between fascist movements prior to the Second World War however there was an attempt at unifying European fascists. The 1934 Montreux Fascist conference was a meeting held by members of a number of European fascist parties and movements and was organised by the Comitati d'Azione per l'Universalità di Roma which received support from Mussolini. The first conference was open to many perspectives and failed to develop any unity amidst the many ideological conflicts among the delegates. The second conference was equally ineffective and more meetings were attempted.[10]

After the Second World War, most fascist regimes were dismantled by the victors, with only those in Spain and Portugal surviving. Parties, movements or politicians who carried the label "fascist" quickly became political pariahs with many nations across Europe banning any organisations or references relating to fascism and Nazism. With this came the rise of Neo-Fascism, movements like the Italian Social Movement, Socialist Reich Party and Union Movement attempted to continue fascism's legacy but failed to become mass movements.

European fascism influenced movements in the Americas. Both North America and South America would develop fascistic political groups rooted in the local European descended communities. These included the Chilean Nacistas, Brazilian Integralist Action, Argentine Civic Legion, Peruvian Revolutionary Union, National Synarchist Union, Revolutionary Mexicanist Action and the Silver Legion of America along with figures like Plínio Salgado, Gustavo Barroso, González von Marées, Salvador Abascal, Nicolás Carrasco, William Dudley Pelley and Adrien Arcand. Some historians also consider Argentine president Juan Perón and his ideology, Peronism as being influenced by European fascism,[11] however, this has been disputed. Brazilian president, Getúlio Vargas, and his corporate regime known as the "New State" was also influenced by Mussolini's rule. European fascism was also influential in the European diaspora elsewhere in the world, in Australia Eric Campbell's Centre Party and the South African fascist movement, which included Oswald Pirow, being examples of this."
If you still believe Nazi Germany had nothing to do with fascism, then you have truly been deceived by historical negationists.

[Major-Tom]

Same reason people champion anything, because they believe in it? Like, why might people champion capitalism? Maybe because a fair number of people are capitalists and believe in that particular economic system?

What a self-explanatory question with an Opening Post that just reads like "why would people champion this if I personally don't like it!" People disagree on shit, what a concept.

[Nakena]

Same reason people champion anything, because they believe in it? Like, why might people champion capitalism? Maybe because a fair number of people are capitalists and believe in that particular economic system?

What a self-explanatory question with an Opening Post that just reads like "why would people champion this if I personally don't like it!" People disagree on shit, what a concept.

The question is though, why it is still a popular memeplex with signficiant gravitas as compared to other ideas or concepts on how to change or improve things to the better.

It's almost as people go for some of the most unoriginal and worst option.

[Satuga]

The socialists were the one getting attacked by Hitler and the Axis Powers as part of the Nazis' "Crusade against Bolshevism", which they have rambled about in Mein Kampf for decades by then. The September 1st, 1939 attacks were instigated by Nazi Germany and the Slovak State, not the USSR, and the Allied Powers declared war on the Axis, thus kicking off World War II.

Yes I know that Nazi Germany had instigated the attack against the USSR but the USSR's horrendous equipment and tactics is what caused them to lose so many soldiers, as well as the starvation that was caused based on supplying the army with most of the food and leaving very little to the people, of course Germany was the one to actually shoot them, but many of the deaths within the USSR could have been prevented if not by the use of horrendous tactics and supplies.

[Major-Tom]

Same reason people champion anything, because they believe in it? Like, why might people champion capitalism? Maybe because a fair number of people are capitalists and believe in that particular economic system?

What a self-explanatory question with an Opening Post that just reads like "why would people champion this if I personally don't like it!" People disagree on shit, what a concept.

The question is though, why it is still a popular memeplex with signficiant gravitas as compared to other ideas or concepts on how to change the economic system. It's almost as people go for some of the most unoriginal and worst option.

It's subjective as to what the worst option is. I don't think a country with a purely Marxist inspired economic system is feasible, at least not in an era of globalization where they couldn't compete. Nor do I think that communism, as a whole, is a realistic goal at this juncture, a noble goal, but far from a realistic one.

But I can see why people may lean towards Marxist economics and related ideas (IE left-communism, socialism, lighter variants of socialistic ideology) when the excesses of capitalism are on full display, arguably more so than in any period of human history. It's particularly abhorrent in the US, where an entire generation of young people are being systematically fucked over by a cutthroat, laissez-faire and downright oligarchic economic system that inherently works against them at every move.

That might be why people, especially younger people in places like the US or UK, may be inclined to gravitate towards far-left ideologies. I completely understand it, even if it isn't necessarily the right prescription for the current horror-show of a country I'm in.

[Satuga]

Jesus lord -snip-

I never said Nazi Germany didn't use fascism or wasn't related, but the Idea of Genociding a group of people who are deemed "inferior" is a Nazism thing, not just fascist. Of course the Nazis were fascist, but that doesn't mean Genocide is a purely fascist thing.

[Alexiandra]

Stop teaching them basic history for free, I’m a communist but my generosity only extends to non-fascists

Lol calling me fascist

For a supposed non-fascist, you sure have spent a lot of time in this thread ardently defending fascism.

[Pannerstone]

Lol calling me fascist

For a supposed non-fascist, you sure have spent a lot of time in this thread ardently defending fascism.

the good old: Your a Nazi!

It's called playing devils advocate

[Alexiandra]

For a supposed non-fascist, you sure have spent a lot of time in this thread ardently defending fascism.

the good old: Your a Nazi!

It's called playing devils advocate

Also known as being a crypto-fascist.

[Wallenburg]

Jesus lord -snip-

I never said Nazi Germany didn't use fascism or wasn't related, but the Idea of Genociding a group of people who are deemed "inferior" is a Nazism thing, not just fascist. Of course the Nazis were fascist, but that doesn't mean Genocide is a purely fascist thing.

I don't think anyone is arguing that genocide is something only fascists do. What we are arguing is that fascism inherently supports genocide. Because it does.

[Alexiandra]

I never said Nazi Germany didn't use fascism or wasn't related, but the Idea of Genociding a group of people who are deemed "inferior" is a Nazism thing, not just fascist. Of course the Nazis were fascist, but that doesn't mean Genocide is a purely fascist thing.

I don't think anyone is arguing that genocide is something only fascists do. What we are arguing is that fascism inherently supports genocide. Because it does.

It's almost as if they have some kind of interest in distorting our argument.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I never said Nazi Germany didn't use fascism or wasn't related, but the Idea of Genociding a group of people who are deemed "inferior" is a Nazism thing, not just fascist. Of course the Nazis were fascist, but that doesn't mean Genocide is a purely fascist thing.

I don't think anyone is arguing that genocide is something only fascists do. What we are arguing is that fascism inherently supports genocide. Because it does.

Whilst that argument could be made for national socialism it's not really accurate for things like clerical fascism or national syndicalism or whatnot.

[Satuga]

the good old: Your a Nazi!

It's called playing devils advocate

Also known as being a crypto-fascist.

Mate I hate Neo-Nazis and skinheads as much as the next guy but I also hate people who support communism despite the fact its likely one of the worst things (government wise) to happen to the world. Calling me a fascist despite the fact I,
1. Am open to other point of views sexually or otherwise
2. Completely despise censorship and things that harm freedom of speech
3. Hate media trying to portray the other side as inherently evil.
4. Think everyone should be treated the same despite religion, skin color, or sex
and 5. Hate many people on both sides of the political spectrum, hell I was open with trump but after the recent shit he's said it's getting to the point where I honestly just want to walk up to him, slap him, and tell him to shut the fuck up.

Of course despite being all of this you'll likely still call me a fascist simply because I don't think the same as you do.

[Satuga]

[
I don't think anyone is arguing that genocide is something only fascists do. What we are arguing is that fascism inherently supports genocide. Because it does.

I suppose it does make sense that it is easier to genocide under fascism as it is literally a dictatorship, which oppresses the opposition however my problem is, it really all depends on the dictator just as they've said with communism it's that assholes like Stalin come in to power and ruin things, it really all does depend on the ruler as it does in every country. So I suppose what I have a problem with is them claiming that Fascism is much worse because of the events that happened while also saying that Communism is okay because all the rulers of a communistic country were dictators that forcibly grabbed power and fucked things up. Just seems like a pretty big double standard to me.

[Cappuccina]

the good old: Your a Nazi!

It's called playing devils advocate

Also known as being a crypto-fascist.

Very disingenuous, that is.

[Alexiandra]

Also known as being a crypto-fascist.

Mate I hate Neo-Nazis and skinheads as much as the next guy but I also hate people who support communism despite the fact its likely one of the worst things (government wise) to happen to the world. Calling me a fascist despite the fact I,
1. Am open to other point of views sexually or otherwise
2. Completely despise censorship and things that harm freedom of speech
3. Hate media trying to portray the other side as inherently evil.
4. Think everyone should be treated the same despite religion, skin color, or sex
and 5. Hate many people on both sides of the political spectrum, hell I was open with trump but after the recent shit he's said it's getting to the point where I honestly just want to walk up to him, slap him, and tell him to shut the fuck up.

Of course despite being all of this you'll likely still call me a fascist simply because I don't think the same as you do.

You've spent almost the entirety of this thread vigorously defending fascists, denying genocides and pretending that WW2 was somehow a 'both sides were at fault' situation. That's quite enough for me to form an accurate picture of your political sympathies.

'Crypto-fascism is the secret support for, or admiration of, fascism. The term is used to imply that an individual or group keeps this support or admiration hidden to avoid political persecution or political suicide.'

In other words, while you won't come out and say it openly for fear of being ostracized, you will defend to the last the horrific fascist regimes of the 20th century - which is exactly what you've been doing in this thread. You're really not as sneaky as you think you are, I'm afraid.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Mate I hate Neo-Nazis and skinheads as much as the next guy but I also hate people who support communism despite the fact its likely one of the worst things (government wise) to happen to the world. Calling me a fascist despite the fact I,
1. Am open to other point of views sexually or otherwise
2. Completely despise censorship and things that harm freedom of speech
3. Hate media trying to portray the other side as inherently evil.
4. Think everyone should be treated the same despite religion, skin color, or sex
and 5. Hate many people on both sides of the political spectrum, hell I was open with trump but after the recent shit he's said it's getting to the point where I honestly just want to walk up to him, slap him, and tell him to shut the fuck up.

Of course despite being all of this you'll likely still call me a fascist simply because I don't think the same as you do.

You've spent almost the entirety of this thread vigorously defending fascists, denying genocides and pretending that WW2 was somehow a 'both sides were at fault' situation. That's quite enough for me to form an accurate picture of your political sympathies.

'Crypto-fascism is the secret support for, or admiration of, fascism. The term is used to imply that an individual or group keeps this support or admiration hidden to avoid political persecution or political suicide.'

In other words, while you won't come out and say it openly for fear of being ostracized, you will defend to the last the horrific fascist regimes of the 20th century - which is exactly what you've been doing in this thread. You're really not as sneaky as you think you are, I'm afraid.

TBH Alex, the fascists weren't the only people at fault for WWII.

[Alexiandra]

You've spent almost the entirety of this thread vigorously defending fascists, denying genocides and pretending that WW2 was somehow a 'both sides were at fault' situation. That's quite enough for me to form an accurate picture of your political sympathies.

'Crypto-fascism is the secret support for, or admiration of, fascism. The term is used to imply that an individual or group keeps this support or admiration hidden to avoid political persecution or political suicide.'

In other words, while you won't come out and say it openly for fear of being ostracized, you will defend to the last the horrific fascist regimes of the 20th century - which is exactly what you've been doing in this thread. You're really not as sneaky as you think you are, I'm afraid.

TBH Alex, the fascists weren't the only people at fault for WWII.

Sure, but to suggest that the communists were somehow equally at fault with the fascists is absurd. In fact, it was liberal-democratic capitalists who, via the Versailles Treaty, created the material conditions that facilitated Hitler's rise and the Second World War. Satuga even went so far as to suggest that the communists should be blamed for their own casualties, citing the 'not one step back' order as some kind of criminal act on the part of the USSR. If the Soviets hadn't fought so stubbornly on the Eastern Front it's highly likely most of Europe would have been permanently subjugated by fascists. Moreover to blame a country for casualties incurred by an attack upon it by a foreign invader is obviously absurd.

[Satuga]

You've spent almost the entirety of this thread vigorously defending fascists, denying genocides and pretending that WW2 was somehow a 'both sides were at fault' situation. That's quite enough for me to form an accurate picture of your political sympathies.

'Crypto-fascism is the secret support for, or admiration of, fascism. The term is used to imply that an individual or group keeps this support or admiration hidden to avoid political persecution or political suicide.'

In other words, while you won't come out and say it openly for fear of being ostracized, you will defend to the last the horrific fascist regimes of the 20th century - which is exactly what you've been doing in this thread. You're really not as sneaky as you think you are, I'm afraid.

I've also pointed out that fascist regimes still aren't a good thing, and that I would prefer neither communism nor fascism, id rather stick with my good old capitalistic Republic. Not to mention I've literally just listed what makes me against fascist, the fact that you would completely ignore this is suggesting you've already made up you mind about what I am in your eyes, and nothing will likely change that.

So you're suggesting im a admirer of fascism, even though the only way you could've gotten from that Is this single debate page where we have marxists and communists like you trying to argue that communism isn't a bad thing and that fascism is all evil, all I did was point out to you that both practices are bad and corrupt you just decide to nitpick what you want to hear yeah?

Im on a public site where I could say basically whatever the fuck I want and show exactly who I am, hell my Nation is literally built on the foundation of how I think a good government would look, just as yours is. It's not a fascistic dictatorship, its a democracy. Why in the fuck would I care about what people who I will never meet aside from this very site to the point I would hide my true feelings?

[Alexiandra]

You've spent almost the entirety of this thread vigorously defending fascists, denying genocides and pretending that WW2 was somehow a 'both sides were at fault' situation. That's quite enough for me to form an accurate picture of your political sympathies.

'Crypto-fascism is the secret support for, or admiration of, fascism. The term is used to imply that an individual or group keeps this support or admiration hidden to avoid political persecution or political suicide.'

In other words, while you won't come out and say it openly for fear of being ostracized, you will defend to the last the horrific fascist regimes of the 20th century - which is exactly what you've been doing in this thread. You're really not as sneaky as you think you are, I'm afraid.

I've also pointed out that fascist regimes still aren't a good thing, and that I would prefer neither communism nor fascism, id rather stick with my good old capitalistic Republic. Not to mention I've literally just listed what makes me against fascist, the fact that you would completely ignore this is suggesting you've already made up you mind about what I am in your eyes, and nothing will likely change that.

So you're suggesting im a admirer of fascism, even though the only way you could've gotten from that Is this single debate page where we have marxists and communists like you trying to argue that communism isn't a bad thing and that fascism is all evil, all I did was point out to you that both practices are bad and corrupt you just decide to nitpick what you want to hear yeah?

Im on a public site where I could say basically whatever the fuck I want and show exactly who I am, hell my Nation is literally built on the foundation of how I think a good government would look, just as yours is. It's not a fascistic dictatorship, its a democracy. Why in the fuck would I care about what people who I will never meet aside from this very site to the point I would hide my true feelings?

'Pointing out that fascism still isn't a good thing' is a classic tactic used by crypto-fascists. You disavow historical fascist movements but strenuously defend their every move, insisting that the other side was 'just as bad' even when evidence is provided to the contrary. There is a demonstrable difference between communism and fascism - one you seem unwilling to acknowledge. This obstinance in the face of very appreciable differences between two positions is a classic symptom of what is mockingly referred to as 'enlightened centrism', which in reality functions as little more than a shield for the far-right.

[Munkcestrian Republic]

I often find myself asking the same question.