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The Omnipotence Paradox

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Could an omnipotent being create a rock so heavy that He or She couldn't lift it?

Yes.
20
48%
No.
22
52%
 
Total votes : 42

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First American Empire
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The Omnipotence Paradox

Postby First American Empire » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:03 am

I'm sure many of you are familiar with the Omnipotence Paradox, often known as the Paradox of the Rock. The most common example is to ask whether God (or another omnipotent being) can create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it. There are other examples, but they all ask whether an omnipotent being can place limits on His or Her own omnipotence. This question has been debated for a thousand years, and I think it's finally time we got an answer.

I, personally, am of the opinion that an omnipotent being could create a rock too heavy to lift."Omnipotence", by definition, means one is able to do anything, and "anything" includes giving up one's own omnipotence. To use a forum analogy, it would be like an admin having the power to ban themself. It makes no sense to do it, but it is still theoretically possible.

(Note: This is not specifically about the Abrahamic God. If you don't believe that God is omnipotent, use another theoretical omnipotent being for the purposes of this discussion.)
Last edited by First American Empire on Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:07 am

It's not a paradox at all because it's sophistry. It's not asking a real question.
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Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
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Postby Galloism » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:13 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:It's not a paradox at all because it's sophistry. It's not asking a real question.

Well, more to the point it’s a nonsensical question.

It’s premised on the notion that there’s something an omnipotent being cannot do, and so if the being is omnipotent, there’s nothing it cannot do, so asking if it can do something that requires it to be limited is nonsensical.

Could an omnipotent being create a rock the size of earth and lift it? Sure.
The size of the sun? Sure.
The size of the Milky Way? Well, it’s a black hole now, but sure.
The size of the universe? Sure.
The size of ten universes?
Fifty?
A hundred?
A million?

Sure. An omnipotent being can make a rock of literally any size. But there’s no such thing as a rock it can’t lift.
Last edited by Galloism on Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:14 am

Galloism wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:It's not a paradox at all because it's sophistry. It's not asking a real question.

Well, more to the point it’s a nonsensical question.

It’s premised on the notion that there’s something an omnipotent being cannot do, and so if the being is omnipotent, there’s nothing it cannot do, so asking if it can do something that requires it to be limited is nonsensical.

Could an omnipotent being create a rock the size of earth and lift it? Sure.
The size of the sun? Sure.
The size of the Milky Way? Well, it’s a black hole now, but sure.
The size of the universe? Sure.
The size of ten universes?
Fifty?
A hundred?
A million?

Sure. An omnipotent being can make a rock of literally any size. But there’s no such thing as a rock it can’t lift.

I like to phrase it this way: "Can God count to the highest number?"
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Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
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Postby Grenartia » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:17 am

First American Empire wrote:I, personally, am of the opinion that an omnipotent being could create a rock too heavy to lift."Omnipotence", by definition, means one is able to do anything, and "anything" includes giving up one's own omnipotence. To use a forum analogy, it would be like an admin having the power to ban themself. It makes no sense to do it, but it is still theoretically possible.


Shockingly, this argument has convinced me. Well done.
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Postby Risottia » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:17 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:It's not a paradox at all because it's sophistry. It's not asking a real question.


A paradox is a statement that isn't either true or false.
As the answer to that question must be a paradox, that question is paradoxical.
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:19 am

Imma go with what Gallo and UMN say.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:19 am

Risottia wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:It's not a paradox at all because it's sophistry. It's not asking a real question.


A paradox is exactly something that isn't either true or false.

And it's not that. The question doesn't make logical sense. It's like saying God isn't omnipotent because he can't count to the highest number, or can't draw a square circle. The question's premise is based on something that doesn't make logical sense.
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Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:21 am

Personally I prefer the answer that you're presuming an omnipotent being is bound by logic.

Or, they can create a rock they can't lift and the lift it anyways :)
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Postby Earthbound Immortal Squad » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:27 am

The rock would have to be heavy but not in a literal sense. If the rock had a symbolic sense/power that the being could not overcome then they could not lift it. Now for an omnipotent being that would be extremely difficult and the only thing which comes to mind is something from the beings past which they have never overcome maybe a deep loss or a failure despite all their power. If they have not overcome this then they will not have the power to lift the rock as the rocks power comes from their feeling of failure.
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Postby -Ocelot- » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:27 am

It's a paradox because it's based on a false assumption; the assumption that an omnipotent being can exist. So I guess the answer is no because there can't be an omnipotent being in the first place.
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:28 am

-Ocelot- wrote:It's a paradox because it's based on a false assumption; the assumption that an omnipotent being can exist. So I guess the answer is no because there can't be an omnipotent being in the first place.

Well said fellow intellectual. *Tips fedora*
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Postby The Two Jerseys » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:29 am

No. A truly omnipotent being would have infinite capabilities.
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Postby Lost Memories » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:29 am

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Actually most popular paradoxes self-resolve once it becomes clear they contain a logical error or misuse words.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:29 am

-Ocelot- wrote:It's a paradox because it's based on a false assumption; the assumption that an omnipotent being can exist. So I guess the answer is no because there can't be an omnipotent being in the first place.

No, it's based on the false assumption that there is a value higher than infinite value.
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Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
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Postby Pacomia » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:32 am

If the omnipotent being could do anything, wouldn’t that mean they would be able to lift the rock, too?
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:34 am

When did we decide that omnipotence meant being able to do literally anything and not unlimited power anyway?
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Postby Kowani » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:35 am

Lord Dominator wrote:Personally I prefer the answer that you're presuming an omnipotent being is bound by logic.

Or, they can create a rock they can't lift and the lift it anyways :)

They kinda have to be bound by logic.
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Postby First American Empire » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:36 am

Risottia wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:It's not a paradox at all because it's sophistry. It's not asking a real question.


A paradox is a statement that isn't either true or false.
As the answer to that question must be a paradox, that question is paradoxical.


I didn't name it, okay.
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Postby First American Empire » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:38 am

-Ocelot- wrote:It's a paradox because it's based on a false assumption; the assumption that an omnipotent being can exist. So I guess the answer is no because there can't be an omnipotent being in the first place.


I don't believe in an omnipotent being either. (My religion's Gods aren't omnipotent.) Treat this as a thought experiment for if an omnipotent being did exist.
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:38 am

Kowani wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Personally I prefer the answer that you're presuming an omnipotent being is bound by logic.

Or, they can create a rock they can't lift and the lift it anyways :)

They kinda have to be bound by logic.

Why?

Admittedly this answer makes more sense when dealing with God (any of them), since they would have presumably created logic, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be applicable in this hypothetical.
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Postby Kowani » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:39 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Kowani wrote:They kinda have to be bound by logic.

Why?

Admittedly this answer makes more sense when dealing with God (any of them), since they would have presumably created logic, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be applicable in this hypothetical.

The example I gave in the IDT: Square Circles.
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Seangoli wrote:You are spouting nonsensical drivel with no coherent thought, little logic, and at the end of it all just angry opining at the clouds based on a truly astonishly low level of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

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Postby The V O I D » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:39 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
-Ocelot- wrote:It's a paradox because it's based on a false assumption; the assumption that an omnipotent being can exist. So I guess the answer is no because there can't be an omnipotent being in the first place.

No, it's based on the false assumption that there is a value higher than infinite value.


Wouldn't an omnipotent being - if they were truly omnipotent - be able to create a value higher than infinity or multiple infinities? Or even infinite infinities?

If they can't, then that leads back into the Rock question and makes them no longer omnipotent. If they can, then your argument is invalid, and the Rock question is still a valid question, and regardless of if an omnipotent does create this hypothetical rock, it has then surrendered its omnipotence in the sense that it cannot lift this rock it has created. It could still erase the rock, or otherwise, take and remove the rock from existence, but it cannot physically lift the rock in a physical form.

Now, the truly important thing about this is that this means a truly omnipotent being ought to be able to surrender their omnipotence more permanently - that is, create an object that they can no longer affect in any form, physically or metaphysically or nonphysically or whatever else, by any means.

...actually, this could prove why any hypothetical omnipotent "god" or "gods" out there are now non-interventionist: they made the Universe an inviolable object immune to their own power.

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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:40 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Kowani wrote:They kinda have to be bound by logic.

Why?

Admittedly this answer makes more sense when dealing with God (any of them), since they would have presumably created logic, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be applicable in this hypothetical.

Logic was developed from the human mind to explain phenomena and abstract concepts.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:41 am

First American Empire wrote:
-Ocelot- wrote:It's a paradox because it's based on a false assumption; the assumption that an omnipotent being can exist. So I guess the answer is no because there can't be an omnipotent being in the first place.


I don't believe in an omnipotent being either. (My religion's Gods aren't omnipotent.) Treat this as a thought experiment for if an omnipotent being did exist.

It's not a thought experiment. The question is nonsense. Lets reduce it to mathematics to show this:

The omnipotent being's power is infinite, represented by ∞, the rock's power is an undetermined value, represented by X

What the question is asking is: Can X > ∞ ?

There is no such concept as "> ∞" , so the question is asking something that is ridiculous.
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Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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