Degeneration of American Leftism?

[Communal concils]

Hello There, I'll like to talk about the situation of Modern American leftism. After examining the DSA Convention, it seems weird that a Political party has such issues with clapping and cheering. In fact it seems like Leftism has change from what it use to mean?
It might be possible that the issue has to deal with the New-Left of the 1960's. I'll Like to know your opinion, from all sides of the Political spectrum. Though, I'll enjoy the opinion of Non-Mainstream Leftist. Here's my criticism of Leftism, things I believe have spoiled the quality of the movement, You should also tell your opinion on this. Here's my list.

1. Romanticism of Historical Movements. Leftist( I'm talking of the socialist variety) , have an idealize version of historical movements. It does not Matter if it's the Soviet Union, Maoist china or CNT-FAI controlled Spain, there is an exaggeration of the greatest of these societies. These people Fetishize the past, their ideology is still base on rivalries that ended a long time ago( Trotskyites vs Maoist, Left-coms and everything else).
They want to depend on old revolutionary ideals and do larping with the terminology, aesthetics and Organizational styles of Old ideologies.

2. Fetishization of Violence. Instead of seeing violence as a necessary tool in certain situations, there is the idealization of violence. The killing of Bourgeoisie and the ransacking of their property. I see this as inevitable, but I find it wrong to hope for this. If things get that bad and peaceful means can't be created, then violence would be fine. Though, I wish people would not have to go towards such scenarios. I hate organizations like ANTIFA for the reason they have such dreams.

3. unconvincing Narrative and rhetoric. unlike the more Traditional "Leftist", I do not truly hate the reactionary. they can be educated if you make better stories or myths to justify your ideals . However, it is also useful to not just reject them because of "Homophobia, specisism, xenophobia transphobia " and everything else you accuse them of. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic, and doing so requires sacrifice.
It might also be possible that certain terminology needs to be useless, especially terms associated with the eastern Bloc.

4. Left "Unity". I find this as a Big fat Lie! That is because I see most advocates of this as hypocrites. Just challenge their narrative of what is Left-wing. Perhaps be a twerf, and they will reject you because of that. Perhaps have socially conservative views, and they will reject you. Perhaps be a social-democrat, and the samething is happening. Left-Unity is a construct use to force groups to conform into a new doctrine, a limit of creativity. Go deep enough, and you will find flaws.

5. Utopianism. we can split this into two groups, extreme denial and extreme embracement of all. I get tired of Leftist call all Historical socialist state "State Capitalist", and I get tired of those that embrace all nations that call themselves socialist. The world is not white or black to me. these justifications are always base on moralist nonsense, and a dogmatic urge to separate ones self from the past. when we look at countries like china, we American socialist should not be wasting our time on whither china is socialist or not, we should not call everything we don't like "Not real socialism" and we must create something new.

6. I still find it weird that Marxism has a monopoly on all that is considered far-left. I am still a Marxist, but we need to challenge traditional Marxism. we need to break orthodoxy and make heterodoxy. It's best if we create new ideologies. Creativity should be formed, and there would be no need for 20th century concerns. 21st century socialism must be created instead.

Sources for those that don't want to research: https://www.pslweb.org/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moWe3rk7LzQ

https://incendiarynews.com/

https://www.leftvoice.org/why-trotskyism

https://www.jacobinmag.com/

[Totenborg]

Hello There, I'll like to talk about the situation of Modern American leftism. After examining the DSA Convention, it seems weird that a Political party has such issues with clapping and cheering. In fact it seems like Leftism has change from what it use to mean?
It might be possible that the issue has to deal with the New-Left of the 1960's. I'll Like to know your opinion, from all sides of the Political spectrum. Though, I'll enjoy the opinion of Non-Mainstream Leftist. Here's my criticism of Leftism, things I believe have spoiled the quality of the movement, You should also tell your opinion on this. Here's my list.

1. Romanticism of Historical Movements. Leftist( I'm talking of the socialist variety) , have an idealize version of historical movements. It does not Matter if it's the Soviet Union, Maoist china or CNT-FAI controlled Spain, there is an exaggeration of the greatest of these societies. These people Fetishize the past, their ideology is still base on rivalries that ended a long time ago( Trotskyites vs Maoist, Left-coms and everything else).
They want to depend on old revolutionary ideals and do larping with the terminology, aesthetics and Organizational styles of Old ideologies.

2. Fetishization of Violence. Instead of seeing violence as a necessary tool in certain situations, there is the idealization of violence. The killing of Bourgeoisie and the ransacking of their property. I see this as inevitable, but I find it wrong to hope for this. If things get that bad and peaceful means can't be created, then violence would be fine. Though, I wish people would not have to go towards such scenarios. I hate organizations like ANTIFA for the reason they have such dreams.

3. unconvincing Narrative and rhetoric. unlike the more Traditional "Leftist", I do not truly hate the reactionary. they can be educated if you make better stories or myths to justify your ideals . However, it is also useful to not just reject them because of "Homophobia, specisism, xenophobia transphobia " and everything else you accuse them of. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic, and doing so requires sacrifice.
It might also be possible that certain terminology needs to be useless, especially terms associated with the eastern Bloc.

4. Left "Unity". I find this as a Big fat Lie! That is because I see most advocates of this as hypocrites. Just challenge their narrative of what is Left-wing. Perhaps be a twerf, and they will reject you because of that. Perhaps have socially conservative views, and they will reject you. Perhaps be a social-democrat, and the something is happening. Left-Unity is a construct use to force groups to conform into a new doctrine, a limit of creativity. Go deep enough, and you will find flaws.

5. Utopianism. we can split this into two groups, extreme denial and extreme embracement of all. I get tired of Leftist call all Historical socialist state "State Capitalist", and I get tired of those that embrace all nations that call themselves socialist. The world is not white or black to me. these justifications are always base on moralist nonsense, and a dogmatic urge to separate ones self from the past. when we look at countries like china, we American socialist should not be wasting our time on whither china is socialist or not, we should not call everything we don't like "Not real socialism" and we must create something new.

6. I still find it weird that Marxism has a monopoly on all that is considered far-left. I am still a Marxist, bit we need to challenge traditional Marxism. we need to break orthodoxy and make heterodoxy. It's best if we create new ideologies. Creativity should be formed, and there would be no need for 20th century concerns. 21st century socialism must be created instead.

It's odd that you say that modern leftism praises Stalinism and Maoism, as I don't personally know any leftist that embraces those authoritarian regimes. If such folks exist, they are not widespread, and they are certainly not representative of the left as a whole.
Additionally, the romanticization of the past and fetishization of violence is far more characteristic of the right.
As for Antifa, I generally support them, as hugs don't stop fascists. Though, they could stand to be more careful with their targets, as they occasionally mistakenly focus their ire on non-fascists. But, hey, nobody's perfect.

[Nouveau Quebecois]

Now we're discussing the 200 iq topics

[Nakena]

Now we're discussing the 200 iq topics

That is going to get fun. Lotta lots of.

[Neanderthaland]

6. I still find it weird that Marxism has a monopoly on all that is considered far-left. I am still a Marxist, but we need to challenge traditional Marxism. we need to break orthodoxy and make heterodoxy. It's best if we create new ideologies. Creativity should be formed, and there would be no need for 20th century concerns. 21st century socialism must be created instead.

But... it doesn't. It's barely followed by the modern left. And modern socialism has largely extricated itself from Marx.

This is like posting, "we need to create an interconnected network of computers, that people can play nation simulator games on."

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Leftists who like Stalin are for the most part probably just teenagers who haven't taken history yet and learned everything they know about him from video games.

Leftists who like Mao... are there even any? Is he even talked about as often in the west? I would've thought most support from Mao would've come from people brought up in China seeing his face on the currency or at Tian An Men square and assuming he must've done something good to earn those spots... though frankly China's anything but communist these days.

[Neanderthaland]

Leftists who like Stalin are for the most part probably just teenagers who haven't taken history yet and learned everything they know about him from video games.

Leftists who like Mao... are there even any? Is he even talked about as often in the west? I would've thought most support from Mao would've come from people brought up in China seeing his face on the currency or at Tian An Men square and assuming he must've done something good to earn those spots... though frankly China's anything but communist these days.

Admittedly NSG would be the place to find one.

[Communal concils]

Hello There, I'll like to talk about the situation of Modern American leftism. After examining the DSA Convention, it seems weird that a Political party has such issues with clapping and cheering. In fact it seems like Leftism has change from what it use to mean?
It might be possible that the issue has to deal with the New-Left of the 1960's. I'll Like to know your opinion, from all sides of the Political spectrum. Though, I'll enjoy the opinion of Non-Mainstream Leftist. Here's my criticism of Leftism, things I believe have spoiled the quality of the movement, You should also tell your opinion on this. Here's my list.

1. Romanticism of Historical Movements. Leftist( I'm talking of the socialist variety) , have an idealize version of historical movements. It does not Matter if it's the Soviet Union, Maoist china or CNT-FAI controlled Spain, there is an exaggeration of the greatest of these societies. These people Fetishize the past, their ideology is still base on rivalries that ended a long time ago( Trotskyites vs Maoist, Left-coms and everything else).
They want to depend on old revolutionary ideals and do larping with the terminology, aesthetics and Organizational styles of Old ideologies.

2. Fetishization of Violence. Instead of seeing violence as a necessary tool in certain situations, there is the idealization of violence. The killing of Bourgeoisie and the ransacking of their property. I see this as inevitable, but I find it wrong to hope for this. If things get that bad and peaceful means can't be created, then violence would be fine. Though, I wish people would not have to go towards such scenarios. I hate organizations like ANTIFA for the reason they have such dreams.

3. unconvincing Narrative and rhetoric. unlike the more Traditional "Leftist", I do not truly hate the reactionary. they can be educated if you make better stories or myths to justify your ideals . However, it is also useful to not just reject them because of "Homophobia, specisism, xenophobia transphobia " and everything else you accuse them of. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic, and doing so requires sacrifice.
It might also be possible that certain terminology needs to be useless, especially terms associated with the eastern Bloc.

4. Left "Unity". I find this as a Big fat Lie! That is because I see most advocates of this as hypocrites. Just challenge their narrative of what is Left-wing. Perhaps be a twerf, and they will reject you because of that. Perhaps have socially conservative views, and they will reject you. Perhaps be a social-democrat, and the something is happening. Left-Unity is a construct use to force groups to conform into a new doctrine, a limit of creativity. Go deep enough, and you will find flaws.

5. Utopianism. we can split this into two groups, extreme denial and extreme embracement of all. I get tired of Leftist call all Historical socialist state "State Capitalist", and I get tired of those that embrace all nations that call themselves socialist. The world is not white or black to me. these justifications are always base on moralist nonsense, and a dogmatic urge to separate ones self from the past. when we look at countries like china, we American socialist should not be wasting our time on whither china is socialist or not, we should not call everything we don't like "Not real socialism" and we must create something new.

6. I still find it weird that Marxism has a monopoly on all that is considered far-left. I am still a Marxist, bit we need to challenge traditional Marxism. we need to break orthodoxy and make heterodoxy. It's best if we create new ideologies. Creativity should be formed, and there would be no need for 20th century concerns. 21st century socialism must be created instead.

It's odd that you say that modern leftism praises Stalinism and Maoism, as I don't personally know any leftist that embraces those authoritarian regimes. If such folks exist, they are not widespread, and they are certainly not representative of the left as a whole.
Additionally, the romanticization of the past and fetishization of violence is far more characteristic of the right.
As for Antifa, I generally support them, as hugs don't stop fascists. Though, they could stand to be more careful with their targets, as they occasionally mistakenly focus their ire on non-fascists. But, hey, nobody's perfect.

1. I find people that embrace Mao and other ML leaders all the time, I consider myself a ML. perhaps it's just the circles you that deny you the interactions with such people.

2. It is an excuse to blame everything on your enemies. Maoist obviously miss the cultural revolution, and many Marxist fetishize failed revolutions. So to blame it on the right winners is a case of denying the past.

3. I support the physical removal of fascism, but I doubt that antifa is organize or smart enough to do anything.

[Communal concils]

6. I still find it weird that Marxism has a monopoly on all that is considered far-left. I am still a Marxist, but we need to challenge traditional Marxism. we need to break orthodoxy and make heterodoxy. It's best if we create new ideologies. Creativity should be formed, and there would be no need for 20th century concerns. 21st century socialism must be created instead.

But... it doesn't. It's barely followed by the modern left. And modern socialism has largely extricated itself from Marx.

This is like posting, "we need to create an interconnected network of computers, that people can play nation simulator games on."

well, perhaps your only thinking of social democrats. I have talking about the left as a whole, usually the far-left.

[Communal concils]

Leftists who like Stalin are for the most part probably just teenagers who haven't taken history yet and learned everything they know about him from video games.

Leftists who like Mao... are there even any? Is he even talked about as often in the west? I would've thought most support from Mao would've come from people brought up in China seeing his face on the currency or at Tian An Men square and assuming he must've done something good to earn those spots... though frankly China's anything but communist these days.

I believe that Stalin is simply a realist. He most likely does not care about the utopian nature of left-wing beliefs, and the result is an brutal but effective socialist state. I find this issue beyond " Bad vs Good" Morality. Many supporters of Stalin in the west are larpers, I cringe very time a see a pro-LGBT-ML with a Stalin profile picture.

Maoist are definitely a thing. And I find them as the worse MLs. Mao Zedong tried hard to spread his theories globally, so you do have Maoist in america. The Black Panthers are an example of this.

[Kowani]

Leftists who like Stalin are for the most part probably just teenagers who haven't taken history yet and learned everything they know about him from video games.

Leftists who like Mao... are there even any? Is he even talked about as often in the west? I would've thought most support from Mao would've come from people brought up in China seeing his face on the currency or at Tian An Men square and assuming he must've done something good to earn those spots... though frankly China's anything but communist these days.

I believe that Stalin is simply a realist. He most likely does not care about the utopian nature of left-wing beliefs, and the result is an brutal but effective socialist state. I find this issue beyond " Bad vs Good" Morality. Many supporters of Stalin in the west are larpers, I cringe very time a see a pro-LGBT-ML with a Stalin profile picture.

Maoist are definitely a thing. And I find them as the worse MLs. Mao Zedong tried hard to spread his theories globally, so you do have Maoist in america. The Black Panthers are an example of this.

“Brutal but effective.”

If I stub my toe, cutting off my leg is also brutal but effective.

[Rojava Free State]

As someone who politically leans left, I'm absolutely disgusted with many so called leftists in America. The left in 1905 was against corporate greed while many so called left wingers today will support nike, the people who use child labor to make shoes, cause they said nice things about Collin kapernick. They will talk about how great Obama was while glossing over how much war mongering Obama did, how his FBI intimidated and suppressed occupy wallstreet, how he received large donations from wall street and how he increased surveillance in america.

Today's left is just identity politics, the politics of "I'm oppressed, give me what I demand or else you're a bigot!" It isn't about helping people or fixing sociwty. It's about every self defined identity tribe getting their demands met, even if it is at the expense of other groups. It's absolutely toxic

[Totenborg]

It's odd that you say that modern leftism praises Stalinism and Maoism, as I don't personally know any leftist that embraces those authoritarian regimes. If such folks exist, they are not widespread, and they are certainly not representative of the left as a whole.
Additionally, the romanticization of the past and fetishization of violence is far more characteristic of the right.
As for Antifa, I generally support them, as hugs don't stop fascists. Though, they could stand to be more careful with their targets, as they occasionally mistakenly focus their ire on non-fascists. But, hey, nobody's perfect.

1. I find people that embrace Mao and other ML leaders all the time, I consider myself a ML. perhaps it's just the circles you that deny you the interactions with such people.

2. It is an excuse to blame everything on your enemies. Maoist obviously miss the cultural revolution, and many Marxist fetishize failed revolutions. So to blame it on the right winners is a case of denying the past.

3. I support the physical removal of fascism, but I doubt that antifa is organize or smart enough to do anything.

Perhaps it is the folks I run with: I mostly roll with social democrats and libertarian socialists. I have no love for authoritarian leftism like that of Mao. To me, those folks are my enemy as much as any fascist.

[Kowani]

As someone who politically leans left, I'm absolutely disgusted with many so called leftists in America. The left in 1905 was against corporate greed while many so called left wingers today will support nike, the people who use child labor to make shoes, cause they said nice things about Collin kapernick. They will talk about how great Obama was while glossing over how much war mongering Obama did, how his FBI intimidated and suppressed occupy wallstreet, how he received large donations from wall street and how he increased surveillance in america.

Today's left is just identity politics, the politics of "I'm oppressed, give me what I demand or else you're a bigot!" It isn't about helping people or fixing sociwty. It's about every self defined identity tribe getting their demands met, even if it is at the expense of other groups. It's absolutely toxic

[Heloin]

I see by you're avatar you've fully embraced Polpotism even though you still pretend not to in your signature.

3. unconvincing Narrative and rhetoric. unlike the more Traditional "Leftist", I do not truly hate the reactionary. they can be educated if you make better stories or myths to justify your ideals . However, it is also useful to not just reject them because of "Homophobia, specisism, xenophobia transphobia " and everything else you accuse them of. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic, and doing so requires sacrifice.

The more you talk about how much of a leftist you are the more I'm convinced you're not.

It might also be possible that certain terminology needs to be useless, especially terms associated with the eastern Bloc.

What are you talking about.

[Pacomia]

As someone who politically leans left, I'm absolutely disgusted with many so called leftists in America. The left in 1905 was against corporate greed while many so called left wingers today will support nike, the people who use child labor to make shoes, cause they said nice things about Collin kapernick. They will talk about how great Obama was while glossing over how much war mongering Obama did, how his FBI intimidated and suppressed occupy wallstreet, how he received large donations from wall street and how he increased surveillance in america.

Today's left is just identity politics, the politics of "I'm oppressed, give me what I demand or else you're a bigot!" It isn't about helping people or fixing sociwty. It's about every self defined identity tribe getting their demands met, even if it is at the expense of other groups. It's absolutely toxic

This is the best comic.

[Grand Proudhonia]

Anti Sectarianism is a lie, this is a fact and its a massive issue in modern anarchist thought

Anarchists that give up their ideals to fight alongside authoritarians are worthless as anarchists

Let us not forget that Bakunin rejected marx and his state

[Purgatio]

Rampant political violence against opponents, trying to shut down dissenting opinions in academic institutions, divisive identity politics, shaming minorities who don't hold the opinions they are 'supposed' to hold in the name of 'intersectionality', there's little to no redeeming qualities in the modern American Left

[Kaystein]

"degeneration of american leftism"

What?

[Rojava Free State]

As someone who politically leans left, I'm absolutely disgusted with many so called leftists in America. The left in 1905 was against corporate greed while many so called left wingers today will support nike, the people who use child labor to make shoes, cause they said nice things about Collin kapernick. They will talk about how great Obama was while glossing over how much war mongering Obama did, how his FBI intimidated and suppressed occupy wallstreet, how he received large donations from wall street and how he increased surveillance in america.

Today's left is just identity politics, the politics of "I'm oppressed, give me what I demand or else you're a bigot!" It isn't about helping people or fixing sociwty. It's about every self defined identity tribe getting their demands met, even if it is at the expense of other groups. It's absolutely toxic

Praising a company for supporting human rights while they actively abuse human rights is hypocritical as hell. Nike did what they did cause it was a money move, not because they are any inherent value in human life besides making cash.

[East Gondwana]

4. Left "Unity". I find this as a Big fat Lie! That is because I see most advocates of this as hypocrites. Just challenge their narrative of what is Left-wing. Perhaps be a twerf, and they will reject you because of that. Perhaps have socially conservative views, and they will reject you. Perhaps be a social-democrat, and the samething is happening. Left-Unity is a construct use to force groups to conform into a new doctrine, a limit of creativity. Go deep enough, and you will find flaws.

Why should I support people with "socially conservative views"? Those people want to restrict my legal rights and reinforce and strengthen the attitudes and social structures that have caused so much pain and suffering.

And a socially conservative socialism would do next to nothing to help Indigenous peoples, it would just maintain existing colonialist structures and oppression.

Of course I'm going to reject social conservatives. There's nothing ""woke"" or enlightened about disregarding and casting out minorities.

[Torrocca]

Well, that OP pretty much lost me when it made mention of making "certain sacrifices" to homophobes and xenophobes.

Yeah, fuck that noise. The American Left is okay; it could do better, but it's sure as shit not degenerate because it acknowledges and focuses on social inequalities and economic inequalities at the same time.

"degeneration of american leftism"

What?

The OP pretty much hates social equality, so American Leftism is degenerate because it focuses on social stratification in addition to economic stratification.

As someone who politically leans left, I'm absolutely disgusted with many so called leftists in America. The left in 1905 was against corporate greed while many so called left wingers today will support nike, the people who use child labor to make shoes, cause they said nice things about Collin kapernick. They will talk about how great Obama was while glossing over how much war mongering Obama did, how his FBI intimidated and suppressed occupy wallstreet, how he received large donations from wall street and how he increased surveillance in america.

Today's left is just identity politics, the politics of "I'm oppressed, give me what I demand or else you're a bigot!" It isn't about helping people or fixing sociwty. It's about every self defined identity tribe getting their demands met, even if it is at the expense of other groups. It's absolutely toxic

The sheer amount of misrepresentation of the American left here is hilarious, not gonna lie.

[Nakena]

As someone who politically leans left, I'm absolutely disgusted with many so called leftists in America. The left in 1905 was against corporate greed while many so called left wingers today will support nike, the people who use child labor to make shoes, cause they said nice things about Collin kapernick. They will talk about how great Obama was while glossing over how much war mongering Obama did, how his FBI intimidated and suppressed occupy wallstreet, how he received large donations from wall street and how he increased surveillance in america.

Today's left is just identity politics, the politics of "I'm oppressed, give me what I demand or else you're a bigot!" It isn't about helping people or fixing sociwty. It's about every self defined identity tribe getting their demands met, even if it is at the expense of other groups. It's absolutely toxic

The sheer amount of misrepresentation of the American left here is hilarious, not gonna lie.

Hes very much on spot.

[Rojava Free State]

Well, that OP pretty much lost me when it made mention of making "certain sacrifices" to homophobes and xenophobes.

Yeah, fuck that noise. The American Left is okay; it could do better, but it's sure as shit not degenerate because it acknowledges and focuses on social inequalities and economic inequalities at the same time.

"degeneration of american leftism"

What?

The OP pretty much hates social equality, so American Leftism is degenerate because it focuses on social stratification in addition to economic stratification.

As someone who politically leans left, I'm absolutely disgusted with many so called leftists in America. The left in 1905 was against corporate greed while many so called left wingers today will support nike, the people who use child labor to make shoes, cause they said nice things about Collin kapernick. They will talk about how great Obama was while glossing over how much war mongering Obama did, how his FBI intimidated and suppressed occupy wallstreet, how he received large donations from wall street and how he increased surveillance in america.

Today's left is just identity politics, the politics of "I'm oppressed, give me what I demand or else you're a bigot!" It isn't about helping people or fixing sociwty. It's about every self defined identity tribe getting their demands met, even if it is at the expense of other groups. It's absolutely toxic

The sheer amount of misrepresentation of the American left here is hilarious, not gonna lie.

What misrepresentation? Do you live in a universe where large numbers of self described leftists don't act this way, cause if you do you better give me the technology to leave this one.

I find it funny you didn't even say anything about what was wrong with the statement. You're just like "man that's so stupid. You're such an idiot, I'm not even gonna reply or try to defend my argument cause you're just wrong and I said so so that makes me right"

[Torrocca]

Well, that OP pretty much lost me when it made mention of making "certain sacrifices" to homophobes and xenophobes.

Yeah, fuck that noise. The American Left is okay; it could do better, but it's sure as shit not degenerate because it acknowledges and focuses on social inequalities and economic inequalities at the same time.



The OP pretty much hates social equality, so American Leftism is degenerate because it focuses on social stratification in addition to economic stratification.



The sheer amount of misrepresentation of the American left here is hilarious, not gonna lie.

What misrepresentation? Do you live in a universe where large numbers of self described leftists don't act this way, cause if you do you better give me the technology to leave this one

Literally go to any online leftist circle and you'll see how much they openly criticized Nike for its sweatshops, how much they repeatedly criticize Obama for his warmongering, how much they criticize the shit that happened to Occupy Wallstreet, and how much they genuinely care about improving society.

Stop being obtuse and conflating Liberalism with Leftism.