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Astronauts above the law? [draft]

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Kitherun
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Astronauts above the law? [draft]

Postby Kitherun » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:01 am

update pending...
Last edited by Kitherun on Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:27 am, edited 14 times in total.

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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:16 am

One speaker should probably point out the precedent that the laws of the nation where a water-going ship or & boat is registered are generally recognised as applying aboard that vessel while it's in international waters... so shouldn't the same principle apply for space ships?
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kitherun
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Postby Kitherun » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:22 am

Bears Armed wrote:One speaker should probably point out the precedent that the laws of the nation where a water-going ship or & boat is registered are generally recognised as applying aboard that vessel while it's in international waters... so shouldn't the same principle apply for space ships?

I wasn't aware of this. Thank you for the feed back i will implement it into option 1.

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Trotterdam
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Postby Trotterdam » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:29 am

How much mischief can an astronaut get up to, anyway? I guess he could assault or steal from another astronaut. Or maybe sabotage the small closed life support system he's stuck in, if he's feeling particularly suicidal.

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Daarwyrth
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Postby Daarwyrth » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:06 pm

Trotterdam wrote:How much mischief can an astronaut get up to, anyway? I guess he could assault or steal from another astronaut. Or maybe sabotage the small closed life support system he's stuck in, if he's feeling particularly suicidal.


If I am correct this draft is based on the RL situation where an astronaut took money from her husband's account while in the ISS. I read about it a day or two ago:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/23/us/n ... clain.html
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Kitherun
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Postby Kitherun » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:24 pm

Daarwyrth wrote:If I am correct this draft is based on the RL situation where an astronaut took money from her husband's account while in the ISS. I read about it a day or two ago:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/23/us/n ... clain.html

This issue was indeed inspired by that yes. But it wasn't her husband as she is a lesbian.
Last edited by Kitherun on Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Kitherun
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Astronauts above the law? [first draft]

Postby Kitherun » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:20 am

requirements: the nation have a space program
description: In an unprecedented case a @@demonymadjective@@ astronaut has been accused of breaking @@demonyadjective@@ law, however questions are being raised as to whether national law applies in space.
Option 1: "this scurvy space @animal@ should be brought to justice" grumbles grizzled sea man @random name@ "any sailor worth their salt knows that the laws of the nation a boat is registered at apply in international waters, and a spaceships a ship after all."
result 1: @nation@ petty criminals are given rocket escorts to the courthouse.

option 2: "I was above daguo at the time, and i wasn't breaking any of their laws" exclaims @random name@ the astronaut in question "you can't just enforce @@demonyadjective@@ laws in a foreign country."
result 2: the border is becoming increasingly lawless.

option 3: "none of this would be a problem if you didn't defy our lords holy edict" proclaims @random name@ pope of the church of Frisbeetarianism "it is written that what goes up must come down, destroy these orbiting abominations at once, lest the dog of darkness fetch your souls"
result 3: @nation@ is trying to bring down the moon for it's godless ways.
Last edited by Kitherun on Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:43 pm

For goodness sake, one thread per issue, please:

Anyways,
1. What did the guy allegedly do?
2. What would illegal in @@NAME@@ but legal in Dagou? If not something that's illegal in both countries, then is it really worth enforcing if it's going to cause such a controversy?
3. Option 3- no religion has ever said anything like that. Most religions pre-date humanity's ability to go higher than a mountain. People enter their real religions into this, you can't make up what their holy texts say
4. Effect for 3- I'm sorry, what? This is just nonsensical, and contradicts the rest of the option
5. Who said that the spaceship was registered in @@NAME@@?
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:52 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:5. Who said that the spaceship was registered in @@NAME@@?
It doesn't really make sense for this to be an issue unless the vessel is registered in the player nation, but then if it is then there there is a glaring right answer.
It doesn't really make sense for this to be an issue unless the vessel is registered in the player nation, but then if it is then there there is a glaring right answer.
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Kitherun
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Postby Kitherun » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:52 pm

requirements: the nation have a space program
description: In an unprecedented case a @@demonymadjective@@ astronaut has been accused of breaking @@demonyadjective@@ law, however questions are being raised as to whether national law applies in space.
Option 1: "this scurvy space @animal@ should be brought to justice" grumbles grizzled sea man @random name@ "any sailor worth their salt knows that the laws of the nation a boat is registered at apply in international waters, and a spaceships a ship after all."
result 1: @nation@ petty criminals are given rocket escorts to the courthouse.

option 2: "I was above daguo at the time, not over international waters. And i wasn't breaking any of their laws" exclaims @random name@ the astronaut in question "you can't just enforce @@demonyadjective@@ laws in a foreign country."
result 2: Astronauts must have their passport stamped every five minutes.

(i don't know what laws I'm allowed to say a nation has, if i were to go off the source material i would say improperly accessing their estranged partners bank account)
(sorry about the religion option too i saw a religion mentioned in a previous issue and decided to use that, same with daguo)
Last edited by Kitherun on Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Kitherun
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Postby Kitherun » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:28 pm

requirements: the nation have a space program
description: In an unprecedented case a @@demonymadjective@@ astronaut has been accused of illegally accessing their partners bank account, however questions are being raised as to whether national law applies in space.
Option 1: "this scurvy space @animal@ should be brought to justice" grumbles grizzled sea man @random name@ "any sailor worth their salt knows that the laws of the nation a boat is registered at apply in international waters, and a spaceships a ship after all."
result 1: @nation@ petty criminals are given rocket escorts to the courthouse.

option 2: "I was above daguo at the time, not over international waters. And i wasn't breaking any of their laws" exclaims @random name@ the astronaut in question "you can't just enforce @@demonyadjective@@ laws in a foreign country."
result 2: Astronauts must have their passport stamped every five minutes.

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Libertas Omnium Maximus
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Postby Libertas Omnium Maximus » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:46 pm

These would be my suggestions but I am no expert:

description: In an unprecedented case a @@demonymadjective@@ astronaut has been accused of illegally accessing their partners bank account, however questions are being raised as to whether national law applies in space.

Option 1: "this scurvy space @animal@ should be brought to justice" grumbles @@randomname@@, a grizzled sea man @random name@ "any sailor worth their salt knows that the laws of the nation a boat is registered atto apply in international waters, and aspaceships a spaceship is a ship after all."
result 1: @nation@ petty criminals are given rocket escorts to the courthouse.
(Not sure about this. It certainly goes with the rocket theme but doesn't really tie into the issue at all. It also doesn't make that much sense given the context)

option 2: "I was above daguo at the time, not over international waters. And i wasn't breaking any of their laws" exclaims @random name@, the astronaut in question "you can't just enforce @@demonyadjective@@ laws in a foreign country."
result 2: Astronauts must have their passport stamped every five minutes.

(Now you probably want an option talking about how space should be designated as international waters)
Last edited by Libertas Omnium Maximus on Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Kitherun
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Postby Kitherun » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:34 pm

Libertas Omnium Maximus wrote:
(Now you probably want an option talking about how space should be designated as international waters)

that was meant to be option number 1, ill try to make that seem more the case.

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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:42 pm

Hi, welcome to GI.

Could you please edit the first post of the thread to show the most recent draft so that is the first thing people see when they visit the thread?

It's not useful for someone to point out a problem that you already fixed in a later draft, but they missed the later draft because it was halfway down the page.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:17 am

Hello, and welcome to Got Issues!

And congrats, you've earned a Chan IslandTM megapost!

First and foremost, for the love of all that is good in the universe, please get your formatting sorted. The rule here is that only the first post in a thread ever gets the actual issue. Not only does that make things easier to keep track of on your end, but it also means that when we scroll through the discussion, we are not graced with 6 posts all saying virtually the exact same damn thing. If you do want to keep the old version of a draft up (and, personally, I don't really operate in that way, but most people do) then just file the thing under a spoiler.

Speaking of spoilers; why are the options under a spoiler too? Not that it actually makes any difference, it's just a single click, but why? Surely it would just be easier to leave it?

Regardless, now let's get to the issue itself...

So in the description we are lead to believe that an astronaut has committed some random crime in earlier drafts, and later on that they have accessed their partner's bank account illegally. While that is much more true to life, this is Nationstates and we shouldn't let a good opportunity to get some high stakes drama get away from us.

Did you know that Russian cosmonauts used to be issued shotguns?
Yeah, now think of the action somebody deciding they liked the colour of blood in space could do with one of those. Why not have the first space murder be the bone of contention? Or at least the first space assault charge, which narratively leaves some more curious option choices. Not only does this concrete crime leave no leeway for that 'oh, this isn't actually a crime' choice, which in the current draft falls a bit limp anyway because we don't accept that excuse for crimes on airplanes too, but it also means that the need for this issue will become mighty pressing very quickly, thus earning the attention of the nation's leader in a big way.

Now that we have ourselves Jack the Drifter, tied up by his fellow astronauts and his firearm taken away from him, we can look at some choices.

Option 1 would be to interpret the ownership of the space ship as being the laws that apply to the crazy gunnaut. They can be tried under @@DENONYM@@ law, just as soon as the shuttle to pick the criminal up gets out there to bring them to the ground.

Option 2 could be the grizzled sea man, arguing that since space doesn't belong to any one nation, therefore international law must apply to the situation. Designating the void to legally be international would mean that the case would be tried in the NS equivalent of the Hague. This option could appeal very much to the type of Star trek utopian who might well be getting this case.

Option 3 could be the criminal protesting that they were flying over Marie Byrd land in Antartica, meaning that there were no laws to apply under. And that furthermore, since no country lays claim to space, therefore no laws can possibly be enforced up there. Not only would this then turn into a fun little pub trivia quiz tidbit, but it could also lead to the criminal immediately and humorously regretting this weaselly way out when one of the other astronauts points out "wait, but that means we could do whatever the hell we want up here to enforce justice too? How about we just throw this sadistic maniac out into space without a helmet?" :lol:

This option idea is actually the one that is the most amusing to consider and would want to see added. The effect line could then be something like "space criminals get an unfiltered view of the heavens".

I hope this helps.
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Kitherun
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Postby Kitherun » Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:26 am

this advice is greatly appreciated and i'll try to implement alot of it but, but some nations have restrictive gunlaws, so I'll probably convert it to a generic murder in the format you suggested.


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