Clerical fascism establishing of the dictatorship

[Otira]

Could you elaborate?

This thread is where you go for that. The people there can do much better than I, for they really believe in that: viewtopic.php?p=36138749#p36138749

Sorry, I meant I was interested more in your take on it. You can telegram it to me if you're more comfortable.

[Novus America]

Would they?

Clerical Fascist Buddhist State anyone?

We have an advocate for that here. Probably semi-ironic though.

[Neanderthaland]

Would they?

Clerical Fascist Buddhist State anyone?

Dzungar Oirat?

[Nakena]

This thread is where you go for that. The people there can do much better than I, for they really believe in that: viewtopic.php?p=36138749#p36138749

Sorry, I meant I was interested more in your take on it. You can telegram it to me if you're more comfortable.

Ahh ok thats fine.

Through study of various books regarding history, the middle east and as well personal experience both IRL and online I've came to the conclusion that... mainstream Islam as a collective religion is in the big picture, unless secularized or moderated (think pre-erdogan Turkey, Albania, Bosnia and maybe some central asian states) in one way or another or widely neutered like christianity, in the long run incompatible with secular western style democracy. Even such a secularization would not prevent a potential revivial by in long periods of time (see Turkey under Erdogan and developments in Bosnia) so thats also another thing.

That being said, this does by no means exclude the possibility of integration and/or assimilation of individuals or small to medium sized groups thereof, into western societies. But when it goes to large there will be always that divide looming. And thats something that has shown so through history and is intrinsically related to the exclusionist and absolute supremacist tendency and mandate that always appears as, at the very least separating, once islam becomes a relevant factor big enough in the equation.

On a global stage, at some point people will have to accept that the the concept of "My way or the highway" is not yielding in good results, and that means dropping supremacist and absolutist demands and attitudes in order to establish something akin to a peaceful co-existence on this world. Books are set in stone will stay the same and not change. But people can. Humans can.

Failing to do so will result in more bloodshed as it happened and probably way worse things to come.

(self-quoted an old post of me here)

[Otira]

Sorry, I meant I was interested more in your take on it. You can telegram it to me if you're more comfortable.

Ahh ok thats fine.

Through study of various books regarding history, the middle east and as well personal experience both IRL and online I've came to the conclusion that... mainstream Islam as a collective religion is in the big picture, unless secularized or moderated (think pre-erdogan Turkey, Albania, Bosnia and maybe some central asian states) in one way or another or widely neutered like christianity, in the long run incompatible with secular western style democracy. Even such a secularization would not prevent a potential revivial by in long periods of time (see Turkey under Erdogan and developments in Bosnia) so thats also another thing.

That being said, this does by no means exclude the possibility of integration and/or assimilation of individuals or small to medium sized groups thereof, into western societies. But when it goes to large there will be always that divide looming. And thats something that has shown so through history and is intrinsically related to the exclusionist and absolute supremacist tendency and mandate that always appears as, at the very least separating, once islam becomes a relevant factor big enough in the equation.

On a global stage, at some point people will have to accept that the the concept of "My way or the highway" is not yielding in good results, and that means dropping supremacist and absolutist demands and attitudes in order to establish something akin to a peaceful co-existence on this world. Books are set in stone will stay the same and not change. But people can. Humans can.

Failing to do so will result in more bloodshed as it happened and probably way worse things to come.

(self-quoted an old post of me here)

Ah, thank you for your post. I understand what you're saying.

[Neanderthaland]

Dzungar Oirat?

Ruled by Ug.

Or, you know, a real group of people who were a sort of militarist-Tibetan Buddhist outfit. And were also genocided by Qing. But they've got a funny name, so let's just focus on that part.

[Lillorainen]

Sorry, I meant I was interested more in your take on it. You can telegram it to me if you're more comfortable.

Ahh ok thats fine.

Through study of various books regarding history, the middle east and as well personal experience both IRL and online I've came to the conclusion that... mainstream Islam as a collective religion is in the big picture, unless secularized or moderated (think pre-erdogan Turkey, Albania, Bosnia and maybe some central asian states) in one way or another or widely neutered like christianity, in the long run incompatible with secular western style democracy. Even such a secularization would not prevent a potential revivial by in long periods of time (see Turkey under Erdogan and developments in Bosnia) so thats also another thing.

That being said, this does by no means exclude the possibility of integration and/or assimilation of individuals or small to medium sized groups thereof, into western societies. But when it goes to large there will be always that divide looming. And thats something that has shown so through history and is intrinsically related to the exclusionist and absolute supremacist tendency and mandate that always appears as, at the very least separating, once islam becomes a relevant factor big enough in the equation.

On a global stage, at some point people will have to accept that the the concept of "My way or the highway" is not yielding in good results, and that means dropping supremacist and absolutist demands and attitudes in order to establish something akin to a peaceful co-existence on this world. Books are set in stone will stay the same and not change. But people can. Humans can.

Failing to do so will result in more bloodshed as it happened and probably way worse things to come.

(self-quoted an old post of me here)

Oii,
One might add, that in case of Albania and Bosnia, Islam is not the clear majority religion - it's around 50% in Albania and even just around 40% in BiH, and especially the latter had has its own history of being quite systematically secularized, prior to and during the Yugoslavian Wars. It might be a result of Tito's (and for the case of Albania, Hoxha's) policies, but I tend to assume, that the prevalent secularism of the modern times is a bit more than just the result of decades of socialism, considering how long the end thereof dates back now. As for Turkey, it was similar in some sense, for Kemal Atatürk has clearly secularized the Republic during his rule as well, and since then, Turkey has undergone several military rules and general instabilities. Erdoğan is surely a different case than the current governments of Albania and BiH - especially since the latter has a very complicated system of one-country-two-systems, a result of the Yugoslavian Wars and the complicated ethnic makeup of the country - and while Erdoğan has surely been a President establishing some stability in his country in his early years, his current policies split the country in a way I find dangerous.
Be it as it may, I can agree with the quintessence of your post, especially with the part "Books are set in stone will stay the same and not change. But people can. Humans can." - a fact which is considered way too rarely ("My way or the highway" and so on ...).

(Edited after re-reading, for some points didn't really come across ...)

[Cappuccina]

Probably due to the differences both historical and contemporary, and in espoused beliefs. Though I agree Islam is judged a tad too harshly.

No it isnt. Unless its a individualized, secularized or otherwise harmless variant (like Ahmadiyya), its an religion with political mandate and a lifestyle etc. that are absolute . Of course thats theory and reality is another thing.

Basically if it's gutted of all meaning (besides Ahmadiyya, of course)?

[Fascist Soyouso]

Religion and government need to stay separate, or the former needs to not hold authority over the latter, if the nation is to survive. Even if the specific religion is important to the people and intertwined with their culture, a government needs to be able to adapt and address the changing needs of the people for years to come, using modern discoveries and knowledge to improve itself. Just because something is written in a religious text doesn't mean it's good for the people, especially hundreds of years after it was written.

[Nakena]

No it isnt. Unless its a individualized, secularized or otherwise harmless variant (like Ahmadiyya), its an religion with political mandate and a lifestyle etc. that are absolute . Of course thats theory and reality is another thing.

Basically if it's gutted of all meaning (besides Ahmadiyya, of course)?

Thats the kind of Islam some liberal intellectuals like to cuddle and pander with I guess.