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[Discussion] Should DOS'ing be a permanent punishment?

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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United Muscovite Nations
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[Discussion] Should DOS'ing be a permanent punishment?

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:35 pm

NationStates has been around now for nearly 20 years, there are certainly people who have been made DOS who are very different people from when they were first DOS from the sight. It seems to me like it should expire after a certain time. There are probably even DOS people among us right now who are contributing constructively to the community.
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Borovan entered the region as he
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Postby Borovan entered the region as he » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:55 pm

/not a mod

There are few cases where mods decide to uplift a dos ban because they might become mature from the years elapsed or differant reason but the cases are very few.
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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:07 pm

We do lift DOSes sometime on a case by case bases. Different mods have different feelings about when and if this should be done. Generally, if someone hasn’t been DOSed for something that awful and hasn’t tried to sneak back in or otherwise made an annoyance of themselves and then they file a GHR asking to be let back in, we’ll at least give it due consideration. And if DOSes are with us and have changed their behavior to avoid detention that’s still pretty much a win as far as I’m concerned.

Personally, I wouldn’t be against having the option to enact a DOS for a fixed period of time for some cases where maturity is a clear issue, and there’s been some discussion of it, but I definitely wouldn’t want that to be the only option.
Last edited by Ransium on Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:10 pm

The current DOS is not set in stone. There have been successful returns as well as unsuccessful ones (DOS was reinstated after the same behaviors returned). A lot of DOS players spend enormous amounts of time burning their bridges (like the current Banana spammer) and I frankly don't care how much time passes. Someone who is an utter jerk in middle school is likely to still be an utter jerk in college too. They just change how their jerkiness manifests.

I see no advantage to making a policy that DOS expires after 'X' amount of time. "One Size Fits All" rarely fits any given individual particularly well. Every DOS player has their individual quirks, and the Mod team is in the best position to make the relevant evaluations.

Edit: ninja'd

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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:26 am

Ransium wrote:We do lift DOSes sometime on a case by case bases. Different mods have different feelings about when and if this should be done. Generally, if someone hasn’t been DOSed for something that awful and hasn’t tried to sneak back in or otherwise made an annoyance of themselves and then they file a GHR asking to be let back in, we’ll at least give it due consideration. And if DOSes are with us and have changed their behavior to avoid detention that’s still pretty much a win as far as I’m concerned.

Personally, I wouldn’t be against having the option to enact a DOS for a fixed period of time for some cases where maturity is a clear issue, and there’s been some discussion of it, but I definitely wouldn’t want that to be the only option.

How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?
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Jebslund
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Postby Jebslund » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:37 am

Scomagia wrote:
Ransium wrote:We do lift DOSes sometime on a case by case bases. Different mods have different feelings about when and if this should be done. Generally, if someone hasn’t been DOSed for something that awful and hasn’t tried to sneak back in or otherwise made an annoyance of themselves and then they file a GHR asking to be let back in, we’ll at least give it due consideration. And if DOSes are with us and have changed their behavior to avoid detention that’s still pretty much a win as far as I’m concerned.

Personally, I wouldn’t be against having the option to enact a DOS for a fixed period of time for some cases where maturity is a clear issue, and there’s been some discussion of it, but I definitely wouldn’t want that to be the only option.

How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?

Same way one files a GHR without posting past ban, I would imagine. GHRs don't count as coming back.
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Postby Big Jim P » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:37 am

Scomagia wrote:
Ransium wrote:We do lift DOSes sometime on a case by case bases. Different mods have different feelings about when and if this should be done. Generally, if someone hasn’t been DOSed for something that awful and hasn’t tried to sneak back in or otherwise made an annoyance of themselves and then they file a GHR asking to be let back in, we’ll at least give it due consideration. And if DOSes are with us and have changed their behavior to avoid detention that’s still pretty much a win as far as I’m concerned.

Personally, I wouldn’t be against having the option to enact a DOS for a fixed period of time for some cases where maturity is a clear issue, and there’s been some discussion of it, but I definitely wouldn’t want that to be the only option.

How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?


I would think that they make a Nation and file teh GHR before they attract any other attention to themselves.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:44 am

Totally agree with UMN, but would go further:

I'd totally get rid of the punishment.

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Jebslund
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Postby Jebslund » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:54 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Totally agree with UMN, but would go further:

I'd totally get rid of the punishment.

I wouldn't. I've been site staff (on other sites, not here) before. There are times when a person has proven that they have absolutely no intention of following the rules and it is affecting other members' enjoyment of the site. For those players, DOS/permabanning is necessary. The fact that *some* players go on to mature enough to return does not mean *all* players do, or even that those who do will do so in a short enough period of time that it wouldn't be unnecessary extra work to go through the steps to punish them. I'm sure you've seen what DOS players do around here. Permabans exist because of players like that who will just keep causing trouble, often for months or years at a time if you let them.
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:57 am

Jebslund wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Totally agree with UMN, but would go further:

I'd totally get rid of the punishment.

I wouldn't. I've been site staff (on other sites, not here) before. There are times when a person has proven that they have absolutely no intention of following the rules and it is affecting other members' enjoyment of the site. For those players, DOS/permabanning is necessary. The fact that *some* players go on to mature enough to return does not mean *all* players do, or even that those who do will do so in a short enough period of time that it wouldn't be unnecessary extra work to go through the steps to punish them. I'm sure you've seen what DOS players do around here. Permabans exist because of players like that who will just keep causing trouble, often for months or years at a time if you let them.

I think a year-long ban would suffice

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Jebslund
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Postby Jebslund » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:01 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Jebslund wrote:I wouldn't. I've been site staff (on other sites, not here) before. There are times when a person has proven that they have absolutely no intention of following the rules and it is affecting other members' enjoyment of the site. For those players, DOS/permabanning is necessary. The fact that *some* players go on to mature enough to return does not mean *all* players do, or even that those who do will do so in a short enough period of time that it wouldn't be unnecessary extra work to go through the steps to punish them. I'm sure you've seen what DOS players do around here. Permabans exist because of players like that who will just keep causing trouble, often for months or years at a time if you let them.

I think a year-long ban would suffice

Clearly you've never run a site before. I can tell you from experience that one year will, in most cases, *not* suffice.
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
Shockingly, we *do* use NS stats, with the exception of lifespan.
Singular sapient: Jebslunder
Plural Sapient: Jebslunden
Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:03 am

Jebslund wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I think a year-long ban would suffice

Clearly you've never run a site before. I can tell you from experience that one year will, in most cases, *not* suffice.

I have run a site before.

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The Sherpa Empire
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:08 am

There are people that need to be banned for more than a year.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:09 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:There are people that need to be banned for more than a year.

Who?

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Juristonia
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Postby Juristonia » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:12 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Jebslund wrote:Clearly you've never run a site before. I can tell you from experience that one year will, in most cases, *not* suffice.

I have run a site before.

*Clearly you've never run a successful site before.

You greatly underestimate some people's obsession with trolling a site for years on end.
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:15 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Jebslund wrote:I wouldn't. I've been site staff (on other sites, not here) before. There are times when a person has proven that they have absolutely no intention of following the rules and it is affecting other members' enjoyment of the site. For those players, DOS/permabanning is necessary. The fact that *some* players go on to mature enough to return does not mean *all* players do, or even that those who do will do so in a short enough period of time that it wouldn't be unnecessary extra work to go through the steps to punish them. I'm sure you've seen what DOS players do around here. Permabans exist because of players like that who will just keep causing trouble, often for months or years at a time if you let them.

I think a year-long ban would suffice


I have had site I staff on have to deal with a recurring vandal who has persisted on and off for around seven years now. The idea that a one-year timeout fixes all behaviour problems is laughable.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:16 am

Vassenor wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I think a year-long ban would suffice


I have had site I staff on have to deal with a recurring vandal who has persisted on and off for around seven years now. The idea that a one-year timeout fixes all behaviour problems is laughable.

What's he like?

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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:34 am

Big Jim P wrote:
Scomagia wrote:How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?


I would think that they make a Nation and file teh GHR before they attract any other attention to themselves.


You can file a GHR without logging in.

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Big Jim P
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Postby Big Jim P » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:35 am

Wayneactia wrote:
Big Jim P wrote:
I would think that they make a Nation and file teh GHR before they attract any other attention to themselves.


You can file a GHR without logging in.


I didn't know this.

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Lamoni
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Postby Lamoni » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:40 am

Just for GVH's edification, but the DOS punishment is not going anywhere, and you really cannot be serious about making the harshest punishment be only a year's ban. The vast majority of people who get DOSed do not improve after only one year, and indeed would go on to troll and harass people for years to come, if we let them.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:53 am

Lamoni wrote:Just for GVH's edification, but the DOS punishment is not going anywhere, and you really cannot be serious about making the harshest punishment be only a year's ban. The vast majority of people who get DOSed do not improve after only one year, and indeed would go on to troll and harass people for years to come, if we let them.

I know it's not going anywhere, things rarely change as a result of a discussion thread.

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:15 am

Scomagia wrote:How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?

You can file them without being logged in to a nation.
Jebslund wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I think a year-long ban would suffice

Clearly you've never run a site before. I can tell you from experience that one year will, in most cases, *not* suffice.

As someone who has run a site I can tell you from experience that if a year long ban won't suffice they'll be evading it within an hour anyway.
Last edited by Aclion on Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kaedijork » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:22 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:NationStates has been around now for nearly 20 years, there are certainly people who have been made DOS who are very different people from when they were first DOS from the sight... There are probably even DOS people among us right now who are contributing constructively to the community.

Closeted DOS victim reveals himself in a roundabout way?

In seriousness, DOS being permanent probably works the best as it is now, however, there should definitely be accessible pathways where the individual can apply after a time period and then have their activity monitored for a certain length of time.
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:33 am

Aclion wrote:
Scomagia wrote:How does on file a GHR without "sneaking back in"?

You can file them without being logged in to a nation.

I'm sure it would be a good idea to put an email into such a GHR, so the mods can actually respond.
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Lamoni
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Postby Lamoni » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:36 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Aclion wrote:You can file them without being logged in to a nation.

I'm sure it would be a good idea to put an email into such a GHR, so the mods can actually respond.


Yes, so very much THIS. If we don't have a nation or e-mail to respond to your GHR, then we cannot actually respond to your GHR.
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