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ICE Attacks and Responsible Dialogue

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Scomagia
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ICE Attacks and Responsible Dialogue

Postby Scomagia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:12 pm

You may have noticed, or not, that violence against ICE has been increasing lately. From the attempted firebombing of an ICE facility to this: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ice-of ... hreats.amp
One protester threatened the family of GEO Group’s former general counsel, John Bulfin.

“We know where all your children live throughout the country … John Bulfin you have kids in [bleeped out], you have kids in [bleeped out],” the protester yelled. “We know everything about you and you won’t just be seeing us here.”
.........
“We know where you sleep at night,” another protester shouted. “We know what kind of dog food you buy your dogs.”

“We’re not actually joking,” the protester said before shouting the location of where Bulfin lives. “John Bulfin you go to [bleeped out], you go to church on [bleeped out], you live on [bleeped out] the road. We are not joking.”

Another can be heard yelling: “When immigrant bodies are under attack, what do we do?”

"Fight back,” other protesters responded.

Breitbart reports that the footage was taken a day before shots were fired early Tuesday at an ICE office and GEO Group office in San Antonio, Texas, in what the FBI has called a “targeted attack.”


I think any reasonable person would say that this is unacceptable. ICE facilities should not be targeted for firebombing and ICE officials should not be shot at and threatened or have the lives of their children threatened. But this kind of violence has not emerged from a void, it has been spurred by the recent rhetoric of politicians and news pundits.

My question, NSG, is a simple one: should the politicians and media personalities responsible for putting out violent or demonizing rhetoric against ICE be expected to condemn this kind of violence and take responsibility for the effects of their words?

My take: the politicians and media figures who have pushed radical anti-ICE messages should be taken to task for the effects of their words. They should apologize and immediately condemn these kinds of actions in order to demonstrate that this behavior is unacceptable. Failing that, I think this kind of thing is going to become more common. If the relevant figures refuse to condemn these actions, I think it's fair to assume that this was what they were hoping for all along.

Your thoughts?
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Utceforp
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Postby Utceforp » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:18 pm

Oh no, what ever will these poor, innocent, defenseless armed men who send people to concentration camps for a living do to defend themselves :(
Last edited by Utceforp on Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:22 pm

Utceforp wrote:Oh no, what ever will these poor, innocent, defenseless armed men who send people to concentration camps for a living do to defend themselves :(

You do realize that government offices usually have more unarmed desk workers than armed field agents, right? You also realize that ICE does more than send people to detention facilities, right?

But let's be real, here. Are you supporting violence against ICE workers?
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:25 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Utceforp wrote:Oh no, what ever will these poor, innocent, defenseless armed men who send people to concentration camps for a living do to defend themselves :(

You do realize that government offices usually have more unarmed desk workers than armed field agents, right? You also realize that ICE does more than send people to detention facilities, right?

But let's be real, here. Are you supporting violence against ICE workers?


That's like saying anyone who supports Trump supports the El Paso mass shooting.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:28 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Scomagia wrote:You do realize that government offices usually have more unarmed desk workers than armed field agents, right? You also realize that ICE does more than send people to detention facilities, right?

But let's be real, here. Are you supporting violence against ICE workers?


That's like saying anyone who supports Trump supports the El Paso mass shooting.

First, it's a question. Second, totally different things unless the Trump supporter in question is making statements that seem to be mocking the victims.

Third, what's your opinion, Vass?
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Utceforp
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Postby Utceforp » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:28 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Utceforp wrote:Oh no, what ever will these poor, innocent, defenseless armed men who send people to concentration camps for a living do to defend themselves :(

You do realize that government offices usually have more unarmed desk workers than armed field agents, right? You also realize that ICE does more than send people to detention facilities, right?

But let's be real, here. Are you supporting violence against ICE workers?

All I'm saying is that your attempt to make people feel pity for an organization of crypto-fascists isn't going to go well.
Signatures are so 2014.

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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:29 pm

Utceforp wrote:
Scomagia wrote:You do realize that government offices usually have more unarmed desk workers than armed field agents, right? You also realize that ICE does more than send people to detention facilities, right?

But let's be real, here. Are you supporting violence against ICE workers?

All I'm saying is that your attempt to make people feel pity for an organization of crypto-fascists isn't going to go well.

Do you support the violence, yes or no?
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:30 pm

Well, I guess people have been listening to all the Democrats who compare ICE to the Gestapo and detainment centers to concentration camps.

For how much they lecture Trump you'd think they'd realize that words have consequences. I guess they haven't, or they simply don't care.
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Postby Vassenor » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:34 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
That's like saying anyone who supports Trump supports the El Paso mass shooting.

First, it's a question. Second, totally different things unless the Trump supporter in question is making statements that seem to be mocking the victims.

Third, what's your opinion, Vass?


Is this going to be another one of those threads where you hound people for not stating something that should be a given?
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:35 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Scomagia wrote:First, it's a question. Second, totally different things unless the Trump supporter in question is making statements that seem to be mocking the victims.

Third, what's your opinion, Vass?


Is this going to be another one of those threads where you hound people for not stating something that should be a given?

Is this going to be another one of those threads where you never actually state your opinion and people have to pull your teeth to get anything out of you?
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:35 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Scomagia wrote:First, it's a question. Second, totally different things unless the Trump supporter in question is making statements that seem to be mocking the victims.

Third, what's your opinion, Vass?


Is this going to be another one of those threads where you hound people for not stating something that should be a given?

What's your opinion, Vass?
[Insert bizarre political diatribe here]
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Danubia-Slavia
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Postby Danubia-Slavia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:38 pm

Whether or not you agree to ICE doing what they do, that's no excuse to threaten them and their families for the job they do. And in my opinion, having the ability to apprehend and detain illegal immigrants is an important part of enforcing your borders. Although I do believe the detention centers are a bit too crowded for the liking, the illegal immigrants put in there made a choice to disobey the law and cross illegally. The fact that so many people are de-huamnizing ICE is sick, I could understand if there was actual proof of mass abuse throughout the force, but it's just people ENFORCING THE LAW.

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Postby Republican President Donald J Trump USA » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:39 pm

Scomagia wrote:You may have noticed, or not, that violence against ICE has been increasing lately. From the attempted firebombing of an ICE facility to this: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ice-of ... hreats.amp
One protester threatened the family of GEO Group’s former general counsel, John Bulfin.

“We know where all your children live throughout the country … John Bulfin you have kids in [bleeped out], you have kids in [bleeped out],” the protester yelled. “We know everything about you and you won’t just be seeing us here.”
.........
“We know where you sleep at night,” another protester shouted. “We know what kind of dog food you buy your dogs.”

“We’re not actually joking,” the protester said before shouting the location of where Bulfin lives. “John Bulfin you go to [bleeped out], you go to church on [bleeped out], you live on [bleeped out] the road. We are not joking.”

Another can be heard yelling: “When immigrant bodies are under attack, what do we do?”

"Fight back,” other protesters responded.

Breitbart reports that the footage was taken a day before shots were fired early Tuesday at an ICE office and GEO Group office in San Antonio, Texas, in what the FBI has called a “targeted attack.”


I think any reasonable person would say that this is unacceptable. ICE facilities should not be targeted for firebombing and ICE officials should not be shot at and threatened or have the lives of their children threatened. But this kind of violence has not emerged from a void, it has been spurred by the recent rhetoric of politicians and news pundits.

My question, NSG, is a simple one: should the politicians and media personalities responsible for putting out violent or demonizing rhetoric against ICE be expected to condemn this kind of violence and take responsibility for the effects of their words?

My take: the politicians and media figures who have pushed radical anti-ICE messages should be taken to task for the effects of their words. They should apologize and immediately condemn these kinds of actions in order to demonstrate that this behavior is unacceptable. Failing that, I think this kind of thing is going to become more common. If the relevant figures refuse to condemn these actions, I think it's fair to assume that this was what they were hoping for all along.

Your thoughts?

ICE has been doing its job under all US President's since its creation, The Leftist Democrat Politicians in Congress should at least apologize, but they wont, because they support open borders, which is illegal.
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:40 pm

We should just start treating anyone who tries to doxx ICE officers as terrorists.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:40 pm

Danubia-Slavia wrote:Whether or not you agree to ICE doing what they do, that's no excuse to threaten them and their families for the job they do. And in my opinion, having the ability to apprehend and detain illegal immigrants is an important part of enforcing your borders. Although I do believe the detention centers are a bit too crowded for the liking, the illegal immigrants put in there made a choice to disobey the law and cross illegally. The fact that so many people are de-huamnizing ICE is sick, I could understand if there was actual proof of mass abuse throughout the force, but it's just people ENFORCING THE LAW.

I couldn't agree more. Detention center conditions need to be improved but that is no cause to threaten the lives of ICE officials, let alone their families.

Do you think that those fanning the rhetorical flames should be held accountable for these events?
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:42 pm

Nova Cyberia wrote:We should just start treating anyone who tries to doxx ICE officers as terrorists.

Doxxing should be a felony anyway. Not sure if a terrorism charge would be appropriate though.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:42 pm

Yeah, the politicians should disassociate from the radicals immediately. Both sides of the spectrum are radicalizing and it's not good.
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:43 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Nova Cyberia wrote:We should just start treating anyone who tries to doxx ICE officers as terrorists.

Doxxing should be a felony anyway. Not sure if a terrorism charge would be appropriate though.

Why not? Doxxing is intended to cause terror, and it's become a common tactic of far-leftists like Antifa who wage mass doxxing campaigns.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:44 pm

I’m going to say the same thing I did regarding the mass shooting at El Paso, which applies to this too: “if you have the ear of a large group of people, be you a private person, politician or a religious leader, remember this- Be careful with the rhetoric you espouse, as it can provoke unstable people who listen to you to commit atrocities.

You are responsible for your words. We all are. You didn’t kill anyone yourself, but you fanned the flames of hate that resulted in such deaths (or in this case, attacks to ICE facilities, agents and endangerment to their families). Let this rest solely on your conscience because you are indeed guilty of stirring the pot.”

My answer is, of course that yes, they’re accountable.
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Postby Estanglia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:45 pm

Disagree with ICE all you want, but threatening harm towards people who aren't involved with the things you hate is absolutely disgusting. Just because someone is related to someone who you consider evil or are doing a job that you consider evil doesn't allow you to threaten harm upon them, especially when you're threatening people who can't do much (if anything) about that person (like, say, their children) or are using it to threaten them into doing what you want.
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Postby Danubia-Slavia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:46 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Danubia-Slavia wrote:Whether or not you agree to ICE doing what they do, that's no excuse to threaten them and their families for the job they do. And in my opinion, having the ability to apprehend and detain illegal immigrants is an important part of enforcing your borders. Although I do believe the detention centers are a bit too crowded for the liking, the illegal immigrants put in there made a choice to disobey the law and cross illegally. The fact that so many people are de-huamnizing ICE is sick, I could understand if there was actual proof of mass abuse throughout the force, but it's just people ENFORCING THE LAW.

I couldn't agree more. Detention center conditions need to be improved but that is no cause to threaten the lives of ICE officials, let alone their families.

Do you think that those fanning the rhetorical flames should be held accountable for these events?


I do not think we should criminalize people speaking their minds, even if their opinion is stupid in my opinion. What we should criminalize is the thing mentioned in the OP, releasing private information of an individual without their consent in the motive to have them doxxed, stalked, harassed, etc. I'm a big endorser of freedom of speech, even for ideologies that can be quite extreme, but voicing extreme opinions is different than handing extremists the info to destroy one's life.

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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:46 pm

Utceforp wrote:Oh no, what ever will these poor, innocent, defenseless armed men who send people to concentration camps for a living do to defend themselves :(


Imagine unironically supporting terrorism against people just doing their jobs.
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Postby Danubia-Slavia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:48 pm

Estanglia wrote:Disagree with ICE all you want, but threatening harm towards people who aren't involved with the things you hate is absolutely disgusting. Just because someone is related to someone who you consider evil or are doing a job that you consider evil doesn't allow you to threaten harm upon them, especially when you're threatening people who can't do much (if anything) about that person (like, say, their children) or are using it to threaten them into doing what you want.

I couldn't agree more

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Postby Vassenor » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:49 pm

So what specific rhetoric are we blaming for this?
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Nova Cyberia
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Postby Nova Cyberia » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:50 pm

Vassenor wrote:So what specific rhetoric are we blaming for this?

What's your opinion?
Yes, yes, I'm racist and fascist because I disagree with you. Can we skip that part? I've heard it a million times before and I guarantee it won't be any different when you do it.
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