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Books you recommended for people who disagree with you?

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Iridencia
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Books you recommended for people who disagree with you?

Postby Iridencia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:19 am

It can be easy to trap yourself in an echo chamber, unintentionally or not. Even when we try to research the other side of something ourselves, we can often wind up piloting ourselves in intentionally weak directions, dismissing sources without looking into them, taking the word of those who are biased, etc. One of the best ways to research a topic you oppose is to simply ask someone on the opposition: What convinced you?

Thread is simple: What books do you recommend for people who disagree with you on a certain subject, and why? The point is not to debate the books or their subjects, but merely recommend them for the pursuit of intellectual honesty. I'll go first:

"Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James W. Loewen. It is a well-researched book for those who see American history or Western history in general in sentimental or simplistically "proud" shades. The book is not intended to be an antagonistic takedown of the United States, but rather the dangers of the country's tendency to sanitize and even outright lie about its own history for the sake of its own self-congratulatory myth of grandeur and greatness. The message is one about becoming great through learning from our mistakes, not hiding them.

"The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory" by Cynthia Eller. It is a common assumption, especially among feminists of a more spiritual flavor, that humanity started out in matriarchal societies and then gradually became patriarchal. Eller, however, explains how this is largely pseudohistory with no evidence to back it up, and explains (and elaborates further on in the book's sequel, "Gentlemen and Amazons") how the hypothesis actually originated as an anti-feminist theory to show how "evolved" societies naturally gravitate towards men being in charge. Eller furthers argues how despite the feminist intentions of the current myth, it actually serves to perpetuate negative stereotypes about women and indirectly reinforces the dangerous notion that the past can justify the future. I didn't agree with everything in the book, particularly the parts about biological sex, but the main point about the history and the dangerous assumptions at play are solid.

"Foundational Falsehoods of Creationism" by Aron Ra. It is a step by step breakdown of every argument creationism has and why it does not work, packed with evidence shooting down just about every myth creationist pseudoscience sells to the religiously hopeful. Ra leaves zero wiggle room and demonstrates that the only real way to continue being a creationist is to purposely avoid actual science.


PS: I wasn't sure whether this best belonged in General or Arts & Fiction and thought this was the safest option. Please feel free to move if inappropriate.
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:16 pm

For those who think Donald Trump offers any kind of stability even in his own office, Fear by Bob Woodward. I didn't think things were as bad as they were until reading it.

And for those who think 1984 is a way to pwn Leftist CensorshipTM, 1984.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:20 pm

Thomas Piketty’s Capitalism in the 21st Century. Really goes after that
“self-made man” myth. Complete with citations, data, and economic jargon. Oh, and Keynes’ General Theory, for your free-marketeers. I would also recommend Robert Riesch’s Saving Capitalism, if you wanted something more recent. It’s a bit US Centric, but it’s good nonetheless. Oh, and Enlightenment Now. Good for sure those traditionalists who refuse to accept that the world was better in the past.


Hmm…I suppose anything by Sartre, really? Or perhaps some Descartes…
Last edited by Kowani on Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:23 pm

Harry Potter.
Just cause I disagree with them doesn’t mean we can’t both appreciate goodfiction.
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Surkiea
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Postby Surkiea » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:08 pm

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:20 pm

For some Christians, Nachfolge by Dietrich Bonhoeffer (I think the English title is The Cost of Discipleship). It's a good reminder for those Christians who don't obey the things written in the Bible.
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Postby Liriena » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:20 pm

Thread is simple: What books do you recommend for people who disagree with you on a certain subject, and why? The point is not to debate the books or their subjects, but merely recommend them for the pursuit of intellectual honesty.


Well, I guess that depends on the topic and what I'm trying to convince them of and on what terms.

When it comes to gender issues, I like to recommend post-modern writers like Judith Butler and Donna Haraway because I feel like their approach, even if I don't necessarily agree with it, kind of undermines a lot of stereotypes people have about their field and it may pique the unconvinced's curiosity.

Since I'm more of a communications and cultural studies type, for everything else I tend to lean heavily on the Frankfurt School, the Birmingham school and authors like Gramsci, Bourdieu... Mostly books that might provoke the reader to think more critically about the things they take for granted or have naturalized as "common sense". Even if they don't turn into into avowed leftists because of it, I'll be glad if it makes them be more critical.
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:43 pm

Investment Banking: Valuation, Leveraged Buyouts, and Mergers & Acquisitions by Rosenbaum and Pearl.

That book is my bible and I keep one in my briefcase at all times.
Last edited by Bear Stearns on Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:47 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:Investment Banking: Valuation, Leveraged Buyouts, and Mergers & Acquisitions by Rosenbaum and Pearl.

That book is my bible and I keep one in my briefcase at all times.

How large is your briefcase? You are a building, after all.
Insert trite farewell here

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:50 pm

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:51 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Investment Banking: Valuation, Leveraged Buyouts, and Mergers & Acquisitions by Rosenbaum and Pearl.

That book is my bible and I keep one in my briefcase at all times.

How large is your briefcase? You are a building, after all.


https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Investment+Banking%3A+Valuation%2C+Leveraged+Buyouts%2C+and+Mergers+and+Acquisitions%2C+2nd+Edition-p-9781118656211

I'm talking about a real book lol. printed on 8.5x11" paper and is about an inch and a half thick, so it takes up about 141 cubic inches.

My briefcase is a leather satchel by Louis Vuitton.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
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Postby Vistulange » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:51 pm

Why Nations Fail by Daron Acemoğlu and James A. Robinson.

Generally a good book on how political institutions affect economic institutions. As well as a whole other lot. Generally debunks a lot of bullshit, but is otherwise valuable as well.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:53 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Scomagia wrote:How large is your briefcase? You are a building, after all.


https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Investment+Banking%3A+Valuation%2C+Leveraged+Buyouts%2C+and+Mergers+and+Acquisitions%2C+2nd+Edition-p-9781118656211

I'm talking about a real book lol. printed on 8.5x11" paper and is about an inch and a half thick, so it takes up about 141 cubic inches.

My briefcase is a leather satchel by Louis Vuitton.

Twas a joke, my man.
Insert trite farewell here

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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:56 pm

While not giving much insight into my actual politics, reading Napalm and Silly Putty and When Will Jesus Bring the Porkchops? should give a solid understanding for my feelings about politics.
Insert trite farewell here

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:57 pm

Alvecia wrote:Harry Potter.
Just cause I disagree with them doesn’t mean we can’t both appreciate goodfiction.

Worm, and six months later when they've finished that, Ward.
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Thepeopl
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Postby Thepeopl » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:59 pm

Help! My boss is an ape, by Patrick van Veen; you might have to learn Dutch though, don't know if it ever was translated. He is a behavioural scientist.
Any work of Midas Dekkers, also not sure whether it has been translated. He is a biologist turned anthropologist.

The curious incident of the dog in the night time, by Mark Haddon.

Neurologic, the brain's hidden rationale behind our irrational behaviour by Eliezer Sternberg

Counterintuitive by Tyler Durman

Oh, and all works from John Scalzi and Charles Stross
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:03 pm

I have never really just recommended a book for people who disagree with me. I think just throwing a book title at someone and saying "read it" probably ranks amongst the top 10 laziest "arguments" in a debate.
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Thepeopl
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Postby Thepeopl » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:26 pm

The New California Republic wrote:I have never really just recommended a book for people who disagree with me. I think just throwing a book title at someone and saying "read it" probably ranks amongst the top 10 laziest "arguments" in a debate.

But could you recommend some books?

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Bear Stearns
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:32 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Investment+Banking%3A+Valuation%2C+Leveraged+Buyouts%2C+and+Mergers+and+Acquisitions%2C+2nd+Edition-p-9781118656211

I'm talking about a real book lol. printed on 8.5x11" paper and is about an inch and a half thick, so it takes up about 141 cubic inches.

My briefcase is a leather satchel by Louis Vuitton.

Twas a joke, my man.


I do not joke about Bear Stearns. I was in mourning that fateful day in March.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
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Nouveau Quebecois
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nouveau Quebecois » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:34 pm

The Bible... for everyone.
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Scomagia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Scomagia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:43 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Scomagia wrote:Twas a joke, my man.


I do not joke about Bear Stearns. I was in mourning that fateful day in March.

That makes it better. I like to crack wise at other people's suffering. Sorry, buddy.
Insert trite farewell here

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Bear Stearns
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:45 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
I do not joke about Bear Stearns. I was in mourning that fateful day in March.

That makes it better. I like to crack wise at other people's suffering. Sorry, buddy.


A few people close to me IRL went through hell because of the firm's collapse. Hit them pretty hard.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
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Scomagia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Scomagia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:53 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Scomagia wrote:That makes it better. I like to crack wise at other people's suffering. Sorry, buddy.


A few people close to me IRL went through hell because of the firm's collapse. Hit them pretty hard.

Admirable of them to be able to withstand a whole firm collapsing on them, though. What do they bench? :p
Insert trite farewell here

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Bear Stearns
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:55 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
A few people close to me IRL went through hell because of the firm's collapse. Hit them pretty hard.

Admirable of them to be able to withstand a whole firm collapsing on them, though. What do they bench? :p


Portfolios and retirement funds with a lot of Bear Stearns stock.
The Bear Stearns Companies, Inc. is a New York-based global investment bank, securities trading and brokerage firm. Its main business areas are capital markets, investment banking, wealth management and global clearing services. Bear Stearns was founded as an equity trading house on May Day 1923 by Joseph Ainslie Bear, Robert B. Stearns and Harold C. Mayer with $500,000 in capital.
383 Madison Ave,
New York, NY 10017
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Caliphate of Harlem
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Ex-Nation

Postby Caliphate of Harlem » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:10 pm

On liberalism, women's and LGBTQ rights I choose Joseph Massad's book Islam In Liberalism. It's a pretty scathing analysis of how Western Liberals tend to view the rest of the world, the ways in which they think their social and legal norms ought to govern everybody and how they project everything negative onto the Islam and the Third World. Massad argues that Liberalism has become a kind of intolerant missionizing religion, pretty scathing but very interesting.

On development and economics I'm going with Arturo Escobar's Against Development. He criticises the idea of development, poverty and progress, busts a lot of myths we just assume are true. Difficult read but a pretty good one.

Saba Mahmood's Religious Difference in a Secular Age: A Minority Report. A lot of people assume that religious violence is caused by the existence of religions themselves and that secularism is the solution to the problem, Mahmood looks at the ways in which secularist policies in the Middle East worsened religious tensions more often than they've solved them.

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