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[Draft] Condemn Enadia

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Kuriko
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[Draft] Condemn Enadia

Postby Kuriko » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:13 am

I just thought I'd type this up, and I'm hoping to use it but if public opinion is against then I won't. It's kind of bare-bones right now, but will probably flesh out as time goes on. All evidence for this proposal can be found in the Enadia GP embassy thread, and I'm sure someone will come along to point the stuff out here in full.

The Security Council,

Noting that condemnations are resolutions designed to warn the international community of nations or regions that pose a threat to them or their safety;

Believing that the region of Enadia is worthy of such a resolution, and that the international community must be warned about their true selves;

Pointing Out that the government of Enadia has an apparent disregard for the safety of those nations within their borders by asking national leaders for private information in order to access the regional forums located within their capital city;

Shocked that the government of Enadia has voiced anti-LGBTQ sentiments in the past, and has never apologised for them while at the same time trying to downplay their statements;

Angered by Enadia's apparent disregard for the sovereignty of other regions by their continued use of World Assembly wide recruitment methods, as well as their apparent attitude that they're better than any other nation or region out there;

Hereby condemns Enadia.
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Eumaeus
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Postby Eumaeus » Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:07 pm

Kuriko wrote:The Security Council,

Noting that condemnations are resolutions designed to warn the international community of nations or regions that pose a threat to them or their safety;

Believing that the region of Enadia is worthy of such a resolution, and that the international community must be warned about their true selves;

The two underlined sections sound a lot more like they apply to players than they do to nations/regions/the international community.
Pointing Out that the government of Enadia has an apparent disregard for the safety of those nations within their borders by requiring the disclosure of private data in order to access the regional forums located within their capital city;

I feel like from an IC perspective framing it as a nation's citizens' data instead of the national leader's would hammer home the threat to safety. I understand that this phrasing is likely based off of the OOC privacy violations that you can't mention due to Rule 4, but I think that when put into IC language it does not sound nearly as bad.
Shocked that the government of Enadia has voiced anti-LGBTQ sentiments in the past, and has never apologised for them while at the same time trying to downplay their statements;

-Insert "but we have a member who's gay" here-
Angered by Enadia's apparent disregard for the sovereignty of other regions by their continued use of World Assembly wide recruitment methods, as well as their apparent attitude that they're better than any other nation or region out there;

Probably worth splitting this into two clauses. The comment on the poor attitude of the target region's government sounds kind of petty when tacked on to another thought.

Overall my opinion of this idea, let alone this specific proposal (which imo is lacking in substance), is a hard no. While the behaviors of Enadia's leaders have (rightfully) earned it a poor reputation, it has not done anything actually worth condemning. The request for personal information in their forum applications is an offsite offense that can easily be dismissed by the argument that people should know better than to give their real name, the anti-LGBTQ stuff is bad but honestly there are regions that are far more hostile that do not get attention for it, and while their recruitment policy can only be described in diplomatic terms as a "dick move" they have no obligation not to poach players from other regions. If they wish to be universally despised for some of the least respectable reasons imaginable then that is their choice to make.

Additionally, while I have followed the controversy surrounding Enadia since my return to NationStates, I have for the most part refrained from voicing my opinion of it. From what I have seen there is nothing at all remarkable about this region. The only reason that it is at all well known is because its leaders seem to thrive on controversy, distorting the legitimate concerns of the international community into a narrative that their region is targeted unjustifiably. I do not believe that condemning them will result in any sort of positive change within their region, especially since the timing of this proposals comes in the middle of an Enadian referendum regarding the very recruitment policy mentioned in this proposal.

I believe that this community has the potential to someday do something that crosses a line, but I do not believe it has crossed that line quite yet. This is essentially a condemnation of a region because it is poorly run and its leaders have no respect for any player that isn't a member of their region, which in my opinion is not enough to merit condemnation.
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:05 pm

Can we not give them any more attention than is necessary please?
Last edited by Wayneactia on Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby South Reinkalistan » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:20 am

This does not provide enough reason for a condemnation, in my opinion. I made a mistake with this a while back, when I was trying to condemn a nation on grounds of 'spreading misinformation'. Having a high self-image or voicing controversial opinions is not necessarily grounds for such action. Also, I don't believe that the information required to access the regional forums is indeed that private at all, and I believe the information is held by the forum hosting website rather than the region itself (although don't quote me on that). The sixth point should also be done away with, in my opinion. 'their apparent attitude that they're better' is not grounds for a commendation.

Still, if this gets fleshed out a lot more and you find some more substantial claims, then I'm sure it might get some backing.
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Postby United Republic Empire » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:12 pm

Kuriko wrote:I just thought I'd type this up, and I'm hoping to use it but if public opinion is against then I won't. It's kind of bare-bones right now, but will probably flesh out as time goes on. All evidence for this proposal can be found in the Enadia GP embassy thread, and I'm sure someone will come along to point the stuff out here in full.

The Security Council,

Noting that condemnations are resolutions designed to warn the international community of nations or regions that pose a threat to them or their safety;

Believing that the region of Enadia is worthy of such a resolution, and that the international community must be warned about their true selves;

Pointing Out that the government of Enadia has an apparent disregard for the safety of those nations within their borders by asking national leaders for private information in order to access the regional forums located within their capital city;

Shocked that the government of Enadia has voiced anti-LGBTQ sentiments in the past, and has never apologised for them while at the same time trying to downplay their statements;

Angered by Enadia's apparent disregard for the sovereignty of other regions by their continued use of World Assembly wide recruitment methods, as well as their apparent attitude that they're better than any other nation or region out there;

Hereby condemns Enadia.


Talk about trying to knee jerk and drop a low blow.

One there have never been anti-lgbtq sentiments - Like I said before if there was then I wouldn't be living in Enadia nor would the other gay and bisexual people like myself. Quite frankly trying to condem is a region over your personal bitterness with a member is just wrong and sad.

Enadia doesn't the attitude of "we're better" - Anyone that actually spends time within the region knows our attitude

We also don't ask for their private info - common sense - when playing a roleplay and nation simulator is to put the nation name. Beside Enadia doesn't host any of it - the forums are hosted by an actual company. What you're attempting is to blow it out of proportion to fuel your bitterness against Enadia.

You're allowed to be angry all you want. It's a legal practice, maybe you should put your energy into advocating a change in the site rules instead of channeling negative resentment towards a region.

You're absolutely right - the security council is for condemning or commending the international community. Do you know what it is not for though ? The security council is not for petty and bitter squabbles that end up being in bad faith.
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Postby Miporin » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:58 pm

United Republic Empire wrote:You're allowed to be angry all you want. It's a legal practice, maybe you should put your energy into advocating a change in the site rules instead of channeling negative resentment towards a region.


Raiding is a legal practice, and people get angry about it all the time. Not being against site rules doesn't make something immune to condemnation- in fact, one can make the case that illegality is actually *detrimental* to condemnation efforts. :blush:
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Postby United Republic Empire » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:02 pm

Miporin wrote:
United Republic Empire wrote:You're allowed to be angry all you want. It's a legal practice, maybe you should put your energy into advocating a change in the site rules instead of channeling negative resentment towards a region.


Raiding is a legal practice, and people get angry about it all the time. Not being against site rules doesn't make something immune to condemnation- in fact, one can make the case that illegality is actually *detrimental* to condemnation efforts. :blush:


talking about the recruitment
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Postby Johanneslanden » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:36 pm

United Republic Empire wrote:Enadia doesn't the attitude of "we're better" - Anyone that actually spends time within the region knows our attitude

If that were true, then they wouldn't see fit to send recruitment telegrams to UCRs
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Postby Latrovia » Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:03 pm

Johanneslanden wrote:
United Republic Empire wrote:Enadia doesn't the attitude of "we're better" - Anyone that actually spends time within the region knows our attitude

If that were true, then they wouldn't see fit to send recruitment telegrams to UCRs

Our choice to send a tag:wa telegram is not a proof of we're better than more UCR's.

To return to this new draft of condemning Enadia.

1) We're not anti-lgbt. In fact that matter has been raised so many times that it simply is beyond us as to why does the NSGP keep beating a dead horse.
2) Our government is safeguarding every member that is located within the EU localities. In fact that is the main reason why we choose whom to ban and when to ban instead of moving our tails left and right and banning people un-rightfully.
3) Regarding players data. Enadia never has and never will store data for its benefit. In fact we have strict confidentiality policies at place and never have released anyone's private data in the NSGP unless they have been considered a danger for the Kingsmen Secret Services for the well-being of other UCR's or upon the users personal request.
4) Enadia has never infringed any regions sovereignty. In fact this argument was brought up again several times in our NSGP thread and it has already been addressed more than once.
5) Enadia respects its laws and customs. Which means that our choices to recruit from the WA is none of anyone's concern. If you wish to raise a concern or sign a diplomatic agreement you may very well do so and opt-out.
6) Please go ahead with this, I am loving already the idea. :clap:
Last edited by Latrovia on Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bewhua » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:46 pm

Kuriko wrote:Pointing Out that the government of Enadia has an apparent disregard for the safety of those nations within their borders by asking national leaders for private information in order to access the regional forums located within their capital city;


Please elaborate? Do you mean asking for the email to sign up in the forums? I haven't heard of private information being requested.

Kuriko wrote: Shocked that the government of Enadia has voiced anti-LGBTQ sentiments in the past, and has never apologised for them while at the same time trying to downplay their statements;

I'm not going to deny that certain people in the government may disagree with LGBTQ+ politics and ideas, but they do not have any bad intentions and have nothing against LGBTQ+ people. Besides, their beliefs are theirs, and are not influential on any of the region's actions; In fact, people have been banned on grounds of homophobia and transphobia. And, even though it doesn't mean much, I'd say around half our members are gay, bi-curious or trans. They are all respected members of the community.

Kuriko wrote: Angered by Enadia's apparent disregard for the sovereignty of other regions by their continued use of World Assembly wide recruitment methods,

While i understand why WA recruitment is annoying and not very respectful, i don't believe it's grounds for a condemnation.

Kuriko wrote: as well as their apparent attitude that they're better than any other nation or region out there;

This isn't true. This isn't great publicity for our region, but a lot of the people here only stay because of the community. Most of us think the structure itself is pretty... uncomfortable. Besides, not grounds for a condemnation.

Look, i understand why you could be mad at us, but i don't get the hate towards Enadia. The people here are very nice! I recommend you visit the region discord - you don't need to sign up on weird forums or anything - and see for yourself. Why can't we be friends..?
Last edited by Bewhua on Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kaystein » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:49 pm

Kuriko wrote:I just thought I'd type this up, and I'm hoping to use it but if public opinion is against then I won't. It's kind of bare-bones right now, but will probably flesh out as time goes on. All evidence for this proposal can be found in the Enadia GP embassy thread, and I'm sure someone will come along to point the stuff out here in full.

The Security Council,

Noting that condemnations are resolutions designed to warn the international community of nations or regions that pose a threat to them or their safety;

Believing that the region of Enadia is worthy of such a resolution, and that the international community must be warned about their true selves;

Pointing Out that the government of Enadia has an apparent disregard for the safety of those nations within their borders by asking national leaders for private information in order to access the regional forums located within their capital city;

Shocked that the government of Enadia has voiced anti-LGBTQ sentiments in the past, and has never apologised for them while at the same time trying to downplay their statements;

Angered by Enadia's apparent disregard for the sovereignty of other regions by their continued use of World Assembly wide recruitment methods, as well as their apparent attitude that they're better than any other nation or region out there;

Hereby condemns Enadia.


I've been in the region for a while, and I can report it's not an anti-LGBT environment. Haven't seen a trace of anything discriminating in the discord, forum, or RMB during my residency. So if it has happened, it seems to have stopped now. I'll report on anything I do see.
Last edited by Kaystein on Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:13 pm

I'm really opposed at this point to condemnations based on OOC reasoning. I think condemnations should be badges for playing the villain in NationStates well, and I think when we also pass condemnations for OOC reasons, it really muddies the waters by lumping the former in with the latter.

I don't like Enadia at all, but I'm against this.
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:32 pm

Enadia isn't a great region at the moment, and I really hope that changes, but they don't deserve a condemnation.

I will address your points one by one:

1. There is no feature in the forum software I installed, unless it has been modified since I had admin rights, to force people to enter their personal information save for an email address (which is a pretty obvious requirement.)
2. I don't know what screenshots you have, however I can say that I never felt unwelcome in Enadia due to my sexuality. My reasons for leaving were entirely IC, and I for one wouldn't have stuck around in a homophobic region for literally years. I am sure that current lgbt enadians will echo this.
3. Yeah, WA-wide tging is annoying, and I wish it'd stop. However this alone doesn't strike me as grounds for a condemnation.

I would add that there are ways Enadia could improve, which I have informed them of many times; mainly due to the fact the current policy pertaining to the rest of the world hinges on the belief that they hate Enadia. In my view, Enadia has not been the same region or community that it was prior to the controversy last year surrounding nsfw content on the regional discord server: Enadia needs to try to re-engage with the rest of the gp community. One way of showing good faith might be to cease the WA-wide recruitment messages, which even if Enadia's leaders don't believe they are poaching, certainly have the affect of annoying any potential partners. But...I've come at this issue from a foreign affairs standpoint for a very long time, and I doubt that I'm going to have any more impact than I did then speaking from outside of the region.
I don't know if Enadia can fix itself, but its attitude would be a good starting point.
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Postby Wayneactia » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:50 am

I am curious if Kuri is just floating this, or if this was a directive from The Council of Nine?

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Postby United Republic Empire » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:01 am

Wayneactia wrote:I am curious if Kuri is just floating this, or if this was a directive from The Council of Nine?


I'd like to believe the Council of 9 wouldn't stoop to something low as such. It actually seems like a sloppy personal vendetta by a single individual in my opinion.
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Postby Latrovia » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:37 am

United Republic Empire wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:I am curious if Kuri is just floating this, or if this was a directive from The Council of Nine?


I'd like to believe the Council of 9 wouldn't stoop to something low as such. It actually seems like a sloppy personal vendetta by a single individual in my opinion.


I do agree. We can not hold accountable the XKI for the deeds of their WAD.
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Postby Kuriko » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:53 am

Wayneactia wrote:I am curious if Kuri is just floating this, or if this was a directive from The Council of Nine?

Just floating, the Council has nothing to do with this. Tbh, I never had an intent to submit this. I just wanted to write something to get me in the mood for the real proposal I'm trying to write.

Edit: but like I said, we'll see what public opinion is.
Last edited by Kuriko on Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Johanneslanden » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:58 am

Full support if this is submitted.
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Postby United Republic Empire » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:11 am

Johanneslanden wrote:Full support if this is submitted.


That's nice of you to lay out your true character for all to see that you support personal vendettas that would unintentionally cause the security council to lose integrity and opening doors up for everyone to clog it up with their own personal grudges. Versus a solid grounds for condemnation and commendations - much like if oprah was tossing out commendation badges - you get one, you get one, you all get one.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:22 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:I'm really opposed at this point to condemnations based on OOC reasoning. I think condemnations should be badges for playing the villain in NationStates well, and I think when we also pass condemnations for OOC reasons, it really muddies the waters by lumping the former in with the latter.

I don't like Enadia at all, but I'm against this.

I’m in agreement with Cormac on this one. From what I’ve seen of the region via their embassy posts they’re not particularly agreeable, but certainly not worth a Condemnation.
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Postby Wayneactia » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:44 am

Kuriko wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:I am curious if Kuri is just floating this, or if this was a directive from The Council of Nine?

Just floating, the Council has nothing to do with this. Tbh, I never had an intent to submit this. I just wanted to write something to get me in the mood for the real proposal I'm trying to write.

Edit: but like I said, we'll see what public opinion is.


What is the official position of The Council in regards to Enadia? Is this merely a diplomatic dispute, or has there been an open declaration of hostilities between your two regions?

United Republic Empire wrote:cause the security council to lose integrity and opening doors up for everyone to clog it up with their own personal grudges. Versus a solid grounds for condemnation and commendations - much like if oprah was tossing out commendation badges - you get one, you get one, you all get one.


Pretty sure that already happened with the neoliberation craze that went on
Last edited by Wayneactia on Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:49 am

Harry/URE:

After being approached by Kaystein, I have written up a rough draft of what I believe to be a reasonable set of rules regarding recruitment, which have the joint effects of preventing spammy WA tgs, increasing Enadia's ability to recruit high-benefit members, and dealing with any possible fallout that might arise even from a more conventional recruitment strategy. Additionally it does not tie Enadia into any treaties or bilateral arrangements. I would suggest you give it a look if he chooses to submit it, either in his own name or mine.
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Postby Latrovia » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:11 am

Wayneactia wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Just floating, the Council has nothing to do with this. Tbh, I never had an intent to submit this. I just wanted to write something to get me in the mood for the real proposal I'm trying to write.

Edit: but like I said, we'll see what public opinion is.


What is the official position of The Council in regards to Enadia? Is this merely a diplomatic dispute, or has there been an open declaration of hostilities between your two regions?

United Republic Empire wrote:cause the security council to lose integrity and opening doors up for everyone to clog it up with their own personal grudges. Versus a solid grounds for condemnation and commendations - much like if oprah was tossing out commendation badges - you get one, you get one, you all get one.


Pretty sure that already happened with the neoliberation craze that went on


As I mentioned the EU Administration has no open disputes with any region. We wish XKI and Kuriko best of luck in whatever it is they are doing.
Last edited by Latrovia on Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kaboomlandia » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:21 pm

I don’t believe in condemnations for OOC reasons (Exhibit A: Predator). Opposed.
In=character, Kaboomlandia is a World Assembly member and abides by its resolutions. If this nation isn't in the WA, it's for practical reasons.
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Fauxia
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
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Postby Fauxia » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:52 am

Kaboomlandia wrote:I don’t believe in condemnations for OOC reasons (Exhibit A: Predator). Opposed.

And it’s not fair to nations with condemnations for IC reasons. If you start giving condemnations for OOC reasons condemned players and regions will get bad reputations that they don’t deserve. I’m really at least a little surprised to see a proposal I dislike so much from you, Kuri. Absolutely and categorically opposed.
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Reploid Productions wrote:Unfortunately, Max still won't buy the mods elite ninja assassin squads to use, so... no such luck.

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