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[Defeated] Repeal "Reproductive Freedoms"

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Christian Democrats
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10071
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Sun May 03, 2020 7:28 pm

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:If fetuses were to be granted rights, it would become the legal duty of the criminal justice system to investigate every single woman suffering a miscarriage or any kind of pregnancy complication for criminal negligence or even assault.

That's a silly argument. Every time an old person dies, the state doesn't open a criminal investigation against the caregiver.
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Attempted Socialism
Diplomat
 
Posts: 996
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Attempted Socialism » Sun May 03, 2020 10:54 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Sierra Lyricalia wrote:If fetuses were to be granted rights, it would become the legal duty of the criminal justice system to investigate every single woman suffering a miscarriage or any kind of pregnancy complication for criminal negligence or even assault.

That's a silly argument. Every time an old person dies, the state doesn't open a criminal investigation against the caregiver.
Well, no. But the state will do so if it is suspected that the caregiver is somehow at fault, either deliberately or through negligence. The state will also usually investigate the cause of death even if no foul play is suspected. If, for example, a person is on life support and it is turned off, the state will certainly ascertain whether it was negligence, murder or something else. Here, since the suggestion was to grant foetuses personhood and outlaw abortions, the effect will be the investigation of every period by a sexually active woman and every miscarriage or complication during pregnancy for women, in addition to actually suspected abortions. The consequence of foetal personhood is absurdly moronic in part because it would criminalise basically all sexually active women, monthly.


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Marcie Elizabeth 'MacBeth' Illum
Cui Bono, quod seipsos custodes custodiunt?
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Christian Democrats
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10071
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Mon May 04, 2020 1:15 pm

Attempted Socialism wrote:The consequence of foetal personhood is absurdly moronic in part because it would criminalise basically all sexually active women, monthly.

If you actually believe that, I suspect you're past the point where you can be reasonably persuaded. (I hope that's not the case.)
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

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Attempted Socialism
Diplomat
 
Posts: 996
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Attempted Socialism » Mon May 04, 2020 3:41 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:The consequence of foetal personhood is absurdly moronic in part because it would criminalise basically all sexually active women, monthly.

If you actually believe that, I suspect you're past the point where you can be reasonably persuaded. (I hope that's not the case.)

I... don't believe it. It's not a matter of belief. I am convinced by the nature of the law and I have seen the contest over the personhood bills proposed across the US south. I also find it hilarious coming from you on this topic.


Represented in the World Assembly by
Ambassador and Chairperson of the Executive International Relations Committee
Marcie Elizabeth 'MacBeth' Illum
Cui Bono, quod seipsos custodes custodiunt?
Ivory Tower Critical-Realistic Sardonic Marxist Curmudgeon
Danish Political Scientist Seeks True Love Tenure
Specialities: State development; corruption; IR theory; Vodka
Experiences: Office-running; political campaigns; navigating byzantine academia politics

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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
Minister
 
Posts: 2246
Founded: Dec 08, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Mon May 04, 2020 4:25 pm

Attempted Socialism wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:That's a silly argument. Every time an old person dies, the state doesn't open a criminal investigation against the caregiver.
Well, no. But the state will do so if it is suspected that the caregiver is somehow at fault, either deliberately or through negligence. The state will also usually investigate the cause of death even if no foul play is suspected. If, for example, a person is on life support and it is turned off, the state will certainly ascertain whether it was negligence, murder or something else. Here, since the suggestion was to grant foetuses personhood and outlaw abortions, the effect will be the investigation of every period by a sexually active woman and every miscarriage or complication during pregnancy for women, in addition to actually suspected abortions. The consequence of foetal personhood is absurdly moronic in part because it would criminalise basically all sexually active women, monthly.

OOC: there's a difference between criminalisation and investigation.
Also that's a straw man
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Sierra Lyricalia
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 3677
Founded: Nov 29, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Mon May 04, 2020 4:39 pm

Christian Democrats wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:The consequence of foetal personhood is absurdly moronic in part because it would criminalise basically all sexually active women, monthly.

If you actually believe that, I suspect you're past the point where you can be reasonably persuaded. (I hope that's not the case.)


I think the specific claim cited here is a bit much for all but the most orcish nations, but legally speaking if fetuses were recognized as persons, at minimum the police would have to ask routine questions following up on the medical examiner's report - of the woman who miscarried, of her OB/GYN and general practitioner, of her significant other, and of other acquaintances. If they did not do this as they do for every death of a born person, they would not be treating all persons equally under the law.

And I don't know any woman who, having miscarried, would treat any such questions with any response other than GO FUCK YOURSELF. Possibly including the epithet "pig."

And rightly so.

edited a couple times for clarity
Last edited by Sierra Lyricalia on Mon May 04, 2020 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Aclion
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Posts: 5717
Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Aclion » Mon May 04, 2020 7:05 pm

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:
Christian Democrats wrote:If you actually believe that, I suspect you're past the point where you can be reasonably persuaded. (I hope that's not the case.)


I think the specific claim cited here is a bit much for all but the most orcish nations, but legally speaking if fetuses were recognized as persons, at minimum the police would have to ask routine questions following up on the medical examiner's report - of the woman who miscarried, of her OB/GYN and general practitioner, of her significant other, and of other acquaintances. If they did not do this as they do for every death of a born person, they would not be treating all persons equally under the law.

And I don't know any woman who, having miscarried, would treat any such questions with any response other than GO FUCK YOURSELF. Possibly including the epithet "pig."

And rightly so.

edited a couple times for clarity

Miscarriages would fall under natural deaths, so generally there would be no investigation unless there was something suspect about it.
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Christian Democrats
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10071
Founded: Jul 29, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby Christian Democrats » Mon May 04, 2020 7:46 pm

Aclion wrote:
Sierra Lyricalia wrote:I think the specific claim cited here is a bit much for all but the most orcish nations, but legally speaking if fetuses were recognized as persons, at minimum the police would have to ask routine questions following up on the medical examiner's report - of the woman who miscarried, of her OB/GYN and general practitioner, of her significant other, and of other acquaintances. If they did not do this as they do for every death of a born person, they would not be treating all persons equally under the law.

And I don't know any woman who, having miscarried, would treat any such questions with any response other than GO FUCK YOURSELF. Possibly including the epithet "pig."

And rightly so.

edited a couple times for clarity

Miscarriages would fall under natural deaths, so generally there would be no investigation unless there was something suspect about it.

Indeed. The government does not investigate "every death of a born person." Most deaths by natural causes are certified as a matter of course by a physician. The Real World of United States is a good example:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_cod.pdf

What's more, there are already laws in place for reporting fetal deaths:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

Like elderly people, unborn people are a class that dies by natural causes fairly often. As physicians do now, they would report deaths to the government. An investigation into the cause of death would make sense only if there were some reasonable suspicion of criminal misconduct.

Would the government miss some illegal abortions? Yes, it would. Does the government miss some homicides of elderly persons? Yes, it does. Even when the government identifies a death by unlawful homicide, the criminal often goes free:

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/24/17896034/murder-crime-clearance-fbi-report

These are all problems of enforcement rather than problems of law. Contrary to the dark fantasies of abortion's proponents, some of whom spend too many hours watching The Handmaid's Tale, there's no reason to believe that the government would expend limited and valuable resources on investigations into fetal deaths, unless there were a reasonable suspicion of homicide. The same as now.
Last edited by Christian Democrats on Mon May 04, 2020 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Leo Tolstoy wrote:Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.
GA#160: Forced Marriages Ban Act (79%)
GA#175: Organ and Blood Donations Act (68%)^
SC#082: Repeal "Liberate Catholic" (80%)
GA#200: Foreign Marriage Recognition (54%)
GA#213: Privacy Protection Act (70%)
GA#231: Marital Rape Justice Act (81%)^
GA#233: Ban Profits on Workers' Deaths (80%)*
GA#249: Stopping Suicide Seeds (70%)^
GA#253: Repeal "Freedom in Medical Research" (76%)
GA#285: Assisted Suicide Act (70%)
GA#310: Disabled Voters Act (81%)
GA#373: Repeal "Convention on Execution" (54%)
GA#468: Prohibit Private Prisons (57%)^

* denotes coauthorship
^ repealed resolution
#360: Electile Dysfunction
#452: Foetal Furore
#560: Bicameral Backlash
#570: Clerical Errors

User avatar
Sierra Lyricalia
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 3677
Founded: Nov 29, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Tue May 05, 2020 12:17 am

Christian Democrats wrote:
Aclion wrote:Miscarriages would fall under natural deaths, so generally there would be no investigation unless there was something suspect about it.

...
Like elderly people, unborn people are a class that dies by natural causes fairly often. As physicians do now, they would report deaths to the government. An investigation into the cause of death would make sense only if there were some reasonable suspicion of criminal misconduct.

Would the government miss some illegal abortions? Yes, it would. Does the government miss some homicides of elderly persons? Yes, it does. Even when the government identifies a death by unlawful homicide, the criminal often goes free:

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/24/17896034/murder-crime-clearance-fbi-report

These are all problems of enforcement rather than problems of law. Contrary to the dark fantasies of abortion's proponents, some of whom spend too many hours watching The Handmaid's Tale, there's no reason to believe that the government would expend limited and valuable resources on investigations into fetal deaths, unless there were a reasonable suspicion of homicide. The same as now.


The point is that once fetuses are treated as legal persons, conduct by the pregnant person becomes a possible cause of homicide, and some maternal actions must now be classified as criminal misconduct. Where the ME is unable to cite cause of fetal death as any natural developmental or genetic disorder, or any injury inflicted on the mother by some third party, there must follow some level of investigation. A state that holds fetuses to be persons under the law must protect those persons' rights (that being the entire point of holding them so in the first place). That necessarily includes treating those deaths that can't be immediately explained by natural causes (as well as some that can...) as possible crimes.
Principal-Agent, Anarchy; Squadron Admiral, The Red Fleet
The Semi-Honorable Leonid Berkman Pavonis
Author: 354 GA / Issues 436, 451, 724
Ambassador Pro Tem
Tech Level: Complicated (or not: 7/0/6 i.e. 12) / RP Details
.
Jerk, Ideological Deviant, MT Army stooge, & "red [who] do[es]n't read" (various)
.
Illustrious Bum #279


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