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Heathenry/Norse Polytheism Discussion thread.

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The Emerald Legion
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Heathenry/Norse Polytheism Discussion thread.

Postby The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:50 am

So, out of curiosity, I wondered what NSG would make of the tiny political world of Norse Polytheism.

The first thing to note is that when it comes to beliefs and rituals, there are relatively few universal truths. Partly due to being a reconstructed faith and the ever evolving studies related to the original worshipers and our understanding of them, and partly out of a deliberate lack of universal dogma. Leading to a variety of subfaiths and splinter groups that are all fairly similar while also being different enough to be different.

The biggest 'political' (theological?) Divide in the community is the Universal vs Folkish divide.

As to the first, the gyst is more or less simple. As one might expect for a religion based on the native pre-christian Germanic beliefs, you end up with a lot of Neo-Nazis trying to join. When not openly couched in white Supremacist rhetoric, Folkish Heathens tend to argue either that the gods have some manner of inherent connection to either those of Northern European blood in particular, or white people in general. Or that, as other ethnic groups have their own cultural traditions that are closed to them, they should have the same right. And sometimes they promote some manner of odd 'they should worship their own ancestral gods instead.' stance. This stance is largely held by the Asatru Folk Assembly and it's followers.

Conversely you have the Universalists, in direct opposition to Folkish ideals, is the idea that Odin is the allfather. He created the first people who spread to make all peoples. Universalists believe there exists no racial component to the faith. Most Universalists are aggressively against Folkish stances, and the topic is a frequent cause for discussion and protest, such as the Declaration 127 movement. which is directly aimed at the AFA but indirectly a denouncement of 'Folkish' belief in general.

Then, as something of a third path, in the same sense as agnosticism is a third path, is Tribalist groups. Where by and large they don't concern themselves too much with what other groups do unless it effects them in particular, and tend to reject the idea that worshiping the same gods makes a group bond between them and the rest of the faith. While they tend to have an either Folkish or Universalist leaning, they don't worry with how other people worship and inner 'tribe' arguments tend to be more personal. Tribalists tend to be ignored in the larger debate, partially because it's somewhat pointless to try to include them. Since most don't advertise or go out of their way to recruit, they tend to be small groups.

Personally, I tend towards Universalist arguments. I've seen nothing to convince me that the faith has any racial component in either history or practice, and while certain Universalist groups are insufferably progressive it's still less of a bother than the more or less open white supremacy found in the Folkish camp.

So, what's your thoughts NSG?
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:32 am

Folkish pagans are literally cancer and anyone who says you need to be of a specific ethnicity to follow a certain religion needs to be punched in the mouth tbh

t. polytheist, albeit not of the Norse worshipping kind

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Postby Risottia » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:35 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:So, out of curiosity, I wondered what NSG would make of the tiny political world of Norse Polytheism.
... So, what's your thoughts NSG?

Until this post of yours, I used to dismiss Norse Polytheism as "weird neonazi stuff". The information you provided has been refreshing indeed.
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Postby Nakena » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:40 am

Paganic polytheist here as well. Non norse. And yeah I've stay away from the drama and infighting between obscure groups really.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Folkish pagans are literally cancer and anyone who says you need to be of a specific ethnicity to follow a certain religion needs to be punched in the mouth tbh


This ^^
Last edited by Nakena on Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby First American Empire » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:40 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Folkish pagans are literally cancer and anyone who says you need to be of a specific ethnicity to follow a certain religion needs to be punched in the mouth tbh

t. polytheist, albeit not of the Norse worshipping kind


As a German-American who worships the Greek pantheon, 100% agreed.
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Postby Hanafuridake » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:41 am

The idea that non-Nordic people should not be able to practice Norse heathenry is rather silly, since the Germanic tribes spread across much of Europe, and even most non-white people in the US (such as Hispanics) have traces of white ancestry. Unless one argues that racial purity is necessary to engage in worship, which is downright stupid to say the least.
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Postby North German Realm » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:43 am

I personally view volkish pagans as ridiculous at best and actively harmful to the larger community at worst. Of course, they've historically always been part of the pagan community (if I recall correctly, the original 'neopagan' movement was ethnocentrist, and let's not get into Himmler's pagan mystic bullcrap) but I tend not to agree with them on the account that while the Old Norse Religion was probably designed for the Old Norse People and not many others, it really does not matter. Observation of the pagan rites (or, rather, what's remained of them. Thank you Christians) and belief in the Aesir or the Vanir doesn't require being of a specific race or culture.

That said, wasn't there an older pagan discussion thread?
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Postby Nakena » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:44 am

North German Realm wrote:That said, wasn't there an older pagan discussion thread?


I believe there was one but it got slided a while ago and wasnt very sucessfull and didn had a good OP.
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Postby North German Realm » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:44 am

Hanafuridake wrote:The idea that non-Nordic people should not be able to practice Norse heathenry is rather silly, since the Germanic tribes spread across much of Europe, and even most non-white people in the US (such as Hispanics) have traces of white ancestry. Unless one argues that racial purity is necessary to engage in worship, which is downright stupid to say the least.

Given the no-fucks-given attitude old Vikings historically had on race (and really, most other stuff modern White Supremacists try to 'emulate' them on), it's probably against the old culture in the first place.
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Postby Kowani » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:39 am

North German Realm wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:The idea that non-Nordic people should not be able to practice Norse heathenry is rather silly, since the Germanic tribes spread across much of Europe, and even most non-white people in the US (such as Hispanics) have traces of white ancestry. Unless one argues that racial purity is necessary to engage in worship, which is downright stupid to say the least.

Given the no-fucks-given attitude old Vikings historically had on race (and really, most other stuff modern White Supremacists try to 'emulate' them on), it's probably against the old culture in the first place.

What a fucking surprise!
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Postby North German Realm » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:08 pm

Kowani wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Given the no-fucks-given attitude old Vikings historically had on race (and really, most other stuff modern White Supremacists try to 'emulate' them on), it's probably against the old culture in the first place.

What a fucking surprise!

I mean, White Supremacists being wrong about something they appropriate from someone else is nothing new.
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Postby Kowani » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:10 pm

North German Realm wrote:
Kowani wrote:What a fucking surprise!

I mean, White Supremacists being wrong about something they appropriate from someone else is nothing new.

White supremacists being wrong in general is nothing new.
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Postby Nakena » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:11 pm

North German Realm wrote:
Kowani wrote:What a fucking surprise!

I mean, White Supremacists being wrong about something they appropriate from someone else is nothing new.


And in the end its all about the same thing really. Sometimes just with alot of fluff around it that makes it nicer but doesnt changes its ugly core.
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 pm

Ironically, I've heard strong arguments to the effect of the racists accidentally getting their own movement Hijacked.

When you pretend to care about the history and primary sources of knowledge on the old faith, you get people actually interested in those things.
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Postby Nakena » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:19 pm

The Emerald Legion wrote:Ironically, I've heard strong arguments to the effect of the racists accidentally getting their own movement Hijacked.


Yes and they get very mad about this. See the ethno vs. civic nationalist split in the movement in early 2017. (which did a lot to kill it)

The Emerald Legion wrote:When you pretend to care about the history and primary sources of knowledge on the old faith, you get people actually interested in those things.


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Postby Threlizdun » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:04 pm

I tend to call myself a 'naturalistic pagan'. I tend to view the gods more as archetypes and the myths associated with them as useful metaphors for life. I still do venerate the gods in a sense, and try to incorporate them into my rituals. I'm pretty eclectic in the traditions I draw from, but Norse paganism is definitely one of my more influential sources, and I hold a strong personal connection to the goddess Freyja/Frigg.

I quite strongly reject folkish interpretations of most polytheistic traditions, though certainly recognize exceptions in the cases of oppressed communities (particularly indigenous people) who wish to protect their ancestral beliefs from appropriation by those who still benefit directly from the systems of imperialism and white supremacy.
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Postby Lillorainen » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:54 pm

Oii,
German here (not a 'pure' one, though), who's always been interested in pagan faiths, in particular the Norse/Germanic one - Norse Paganism is the majority religion in my NS nation, and while I wouldn't say, that I follow it in RL by all means, I do know quite a few people who do (before you ask, the number of neo-nazis amongst them is exactly zero).
At first, I, just like the pagan believers I know from my RL would, entirely agree with the Universalists in here. Folkish heathenry doesn't lead to anything remotely good - it assumes, that one needs to be of a particular ethnicity in order to follow a particular faith, thus making the faith 'exclusive', for the lack of a better term - which may quickly lead to an implication, that a 'legitimate' follower may feel superior to those who aren't members of the exclusive club due to the origin of their blood. In my eyes, this is what led to a certain ideology we've already had in Germany, misusing the old faith for the sickest ideology that ever evolved, and which nobody I consider sane-minded would ever want back. The Nazis actually harmed the Norse faith instead of promoting it, the result still being visible today (see Risottia's first post in this thread, for instance).
Aside from that - who's gonna tell me what to believe in and how to practice it? ^^
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:57 pm

I prefer to call them "LARPers tired of going to Church" and "But Muh Heritage-ists" rather than Heathens and Norse Polytheists, thank you
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Postby Hanafuridake » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:17 pm

I don't really have much of an opinion on Norse polytheism mostly because it doesn't interest me and a lot of the time I live in an Asian country where Northern European people aren't even a fraction of the populace. I'm agnostic when it comes to whether the gods of the Poetic Edda exist, but if they did, I'm not sure why they allowed their believers to be defeated by a foreign religion unless the god of that faith is superior to them. They don't set a good moral example, so I would never worship them.
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:59 pm

I tend to view this kind of literal paganism as something broadly irrelevant, except in its most irritating hippy-dippy extreme(then again, those types usually aren't Norse).
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Folkish pagans are literally cancer and anyone who says you need to be of a specific ethnicity to follow a certain religion needs to be punched in the mouth tbh

t. polytheist, albeit not of the Norse worshipping kind

Out of curiosity, what pantheon do you worship?
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:10 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Folkish pagans are literally cancer and anyone who says you need to be of a specific ethnicity to follow a certain religion needs to be punched in the mouth tbh

t. polytheist, albeit not of the Norse worshipping kind

Out of curiosity, what pantheon do you worship?


Greek primarily, but by and large I accept the divinity of a great many more.

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Postby Diopolis » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:16 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Diopolis wrote:
Out of curiosity, what pantheon do you worship?


Greek primarily, but by and large I accept the divinity of a great many more.

So the Roman attitude?
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Postby Bienenhalde » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:53 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Folkish pagans are literally cancer and anyone who says you need to be of a specific ethnicity to follow a certain religion needs to be punched in the mouth tbh

t. polytheist, albeit not of the Norse worshipping kind


As a person of German descent, if I were a pagan I would rather follow Hellenism or Shinto than Germanic paganism because the former have better aesthetics. :^)
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Postby Farnhamia » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:57 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Folkish pagans are literally cancer and anyone who says you need to be of a specific ethnicity to follow a certain religion needs to be punched in the mouth tbh

t. polytheist, albeit not of the Norse worshipping kind

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:05 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Folkish pagans are literally cancer and anyone who says you need to be of a specific ethnicity to follow a certain religion needs to be punched in the mouth tbh

t. polytheist, albeit not of the Norse worshipping kind

*** Warned for trolling. ***


You gonna warn everyone else who agreed with me for trolling too?

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