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America Cuts Turkey From The NATO F-35 Deal

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Lanorth
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America Cuts Turkey From The NATO F-35 Deal

Postby Lanorth » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:12 pm

Source

The US says it is removing Turkey from its F-35 fighter jets programme, after Ankara received the first parts of a Russian missile defence system.

The US says the "F-35 cannot coexist with a Russian intelligence collection platform that will be used to learn about its advanced capabilities".

Russia began delivering its advanced S-400 system to Turkey last week.

Turkey and the US are key Nato allies - but Ankara has also been establishing closer links with Russia.

In a statement on Wednesday, White House spokeswoman Stephanie Grisham said: "Unfortunately, Turkey's decision to purchase Russian S-400 air defence systems renders its continued involvement with the F-35 impossible.

"The United States has been actively working with Turkey to provide air defence solutions to meet its legitimate air defence needs, and this administration has made multiple offers to move Turkey to the front of the line to receive the US Patriot air defence system.

"Turkey has been a longstanding and trusted partner and Nato ally for over 65 years, but accepting the S-400 undermines the commitments all Nato allies made to each other to move away from Russian systems."

At the same time Ms Grisham stressed that "the United States still greatly values our strategic relationship with Turkey.

"As Nato allies, our relationship is multi-layered, and not solely focused on the F-35," she said.
What are your thoughts on the current situation? In my opinion I thought that Turkey had this coming. Because of their interactions with Russia and the tensions that have been apparent between NATO and Russia, this was bound to happen soon. I doubt anything worse would happen, as Turkey has the second-largest military in NATO, an alliance with twenty-nine member states, so they are rather important.
Last edited by Lanorth on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Tekania
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Postby Tekania » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:32 pm

IMHO a program that has continuously run over-budget is making a serious blunder in turning away a customer.
Such heroic nonsense!

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First American Empire
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Postby First American Empire » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:44 pm

This is a small step in the right direction. Cut all military aid to Turkey until they stop attacking our Kurdish allies in Syria.
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Postby Risottia » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:03 pm

Another YUUUGE success for American diplomacy, which proves America is great and makes the BESTEST planes, that's why Turkey prefers buying Ruski missiles instead of America's planes, planes for whom Turkey is a main provider of components.


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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:15 pm

I guess Saudi Arabia will need to compensate by purchasing more lovely weapons.
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Khataiy
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Postby Khataiy » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:27 pm

Objectively speaking, this only hurts the US, the fact Turkey has received Russian produced anti-aircraft systems should actually is a benefit for NATO, the stated concerns over the S-400 system being an "intelligence" project for the Russians are a bit of an outlandish claim, in fact this is a major plus for NATO intelligence on the nature of the S-400 system and its weaknesses and how to use its technology to adapt NATO equipment including future jets and countering it. Turkey really didn't loose much from the F-35s but the S-400s simply are the better option. Bad move by NATO.
Last edited by Khataiy on Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cappuccina
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Postby Cappuccina » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:16 am

Turkey isn't gonna miss out on much considering the F-35 is moribund. They were probably never even going to get any.
Last edited by Cappuccina on Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nakena » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 am

It saves Erdogan a massive amount of cash.
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Postby -Ocelot- » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:40 am

As a Greek I am happy Turkey is purposely weakening itself. Keep ruining your economy. And destroy your relations with the US, please. Let us have the F-35 while you have jack.

Bombadil wrote:I guess Saudi Arabia will need to compensate by purchasing more lovely weapons.


8 billion to be precise.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... be-stopped

Trump has no problem arming these particular Islamists. Weird.


Tekania wrote:IMHO a program that has continuously run over-budget is making a serious blunder in turning away a customer.


It's alright, we'll buy them.
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Postby Crockerland » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:45 am

The US should also withdraw all of its nuclear weapons from Turkey, and of course officially recognize the Armenian Genocide at a federal level.
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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:53 am

Crockerland wrote:The US should also withdraw all of its nuclear weapons from Turkey, and of course officially recognize the Armenian Genocide at a federal level.


From Wikipedia's article on Armenia genocide denial

Currently, only the governments of Turkey and Azerbaijan deny that there was an Armenian genocide, while Pakistan does not recognize Armenia's existence as a country. Many other countries, most controversially the United States (pressured by the Turkish lobby, Israel, and, in the past, the Anti-Defamation League),have deliberately avoided officially recognizing it as a genocide to avoid harming relations with Turkey.


Yeah you gotta stop doing them favors
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:56 am

A weak response from the US.
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Cappuccina
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Postby Cappuccina » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:03 am

-Ocelot- wrote:As a Greek I am happy Turkey is purposely weakening itself. Keep ruining your economy. And destroy your relations with the US, please. Let us have the F-35 while you have jack.

Bombadil wrote:I guess Saudi Arabia will need to compensate by purchasing more lovely weapons.


8 billion to be precise.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... be-stopped

Trump has no problem arming these particular Islamists. Weird.


Tekania wrote:IMHO a program that has continuously run over-budget is making a serious blunder in turning away a customer.


It's alright, we'll buy them.

You're acting like getting offered F-35s even means anything, I'd be an empty promise...for a plane that barely functions anyways.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:04 am

F-35 are overrated and overpriced. Would not buy yet. Rather wait a few years till they have figured them out and have been proved themself in combat.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:19 am

Good. Having the S-400 and the F-35 in the same place isn't a good idea. But then again it's likely that the Russians have already got data on the radar reflection characteristics of the F-35 from repeatedly illuminating them with their radars around Syria anyway...
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Postby Novus America » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:21 am

Cappuccina wrote:Turkey isn't gonna miss out on much considering the F-35 is moribund. They were probably never even going to get any.


This is not true at all. The F-35 was certainly over ambitious.
And it showed in the development.
But most flaws have been corrected, and they have been dominating recent exercises.

Plus they are selling like crazy.
Admittedly it is questionable if our manufacturing capability is near enough to meet demand.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:22 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:A weak response from the US.


But probably the best one. We are in a tough situation here.
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Postby -Ocelot- » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:28 am

Nakena wrote:F-35 are overrated and overpriced. Would not buy yet. Rather wait a few years till they have figured them out and have been proved themself in combat.


I don't see how it's overrated. It's objectively better than it's predecessors.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:34 am

-Ocelot- wrote:
Nakena wrote:F-35 are overrated and overpriced. Would not buy yet. Rather wait a few years till they have figured them out and have been proved themself in combat.


I don't see how it's overrated. It's objectively better than it's predecessors.


It is but she has a valid point that if you wait a few years for the kinks to get worked out and the price to go down (the sunk development costs need to be recouped, the more planes sold, the less of this cost will appear in the price) you might get a better deal.

Imagine if a plane program costs 100 million in sunk developments costs. Each plane costs 10 million to make. If you only sell one it costs 110 million per plane. Sell ten planes 20 million per plane. Sell 100 only 11 million per plane.
And one it is all paid off they only cost 10 million.
Last edited by Novus America on Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Loben The 2nd
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Postby Loben The 2nd » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:35 am

good on US, now we need to find a new buyer.

Maybe Korea wants a few.
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Postby Kernen » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:41 am

Khataiy wrote:Objectively speaking, this only hurts the US, the fact Turkey has received Russian produced anti-aircraft systems should actually is a benefit for NATO, the stated concerns over the S-400 system being an "intelligence" project for the Russians are a bit of an outlandish claim, in fact this is a major plus for NATO intelligence on the nature of the S-400 system and its weaknesses and how to use its technology to adapt NATO equipment including future jets and countering it. Turkey really didn't loose much from the F-35s but the S-400s simply are the better option. Bad move by NATO.

It really isn't.

Any defense system will have to be integrated with existing technology so the defense system doesn't shoot allied aircraft or vehicles. A defense system this advanced uses a lot of metrics for measuring, and would have to integrate or account for the systems that make the F-35 particularly stealthy when it comes to targeting. The US cannot rule out that the S-400 platform would not be accessible by Russians electronically. So any integrated defense is going to expose information we have an interest in keeping safe to the people we're trying to stay safe from.

If the technology in the F-35 is really as advanced as we're acting like it is, which in fairness it probably is, efficiency in development aside, this is the only safe move.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:41 am

Loben The 2nd wrote:good on US, now we need to find a new buyer.

Maybe Korea wants a few.



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Loben The 2nd
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Postby Loben The 2nd » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:42 am

Kernen wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Objectively speaking, this only hurts the US, the fact Turkey has received Russian produced anti-aircraft systems should actually is a benefit for NATO, the stated concerns over the S-400 system being an "intelligence" project for the Russians are a bit of an outlandish claim, in fact this is a major plus for NATO intelligence on the nature of the S-400 system and its weaknesses and how to use its technology to adapt NATO equipment including future jets and countering it. Turkey really didn't loose much from the F-35s but the S-400s simply are the better option. Bad move by NATO.

It really isn't.

Any defense system will have to be integrated with existing technology so the defense system doesn't shoot allied aircraft or vehicles. A defense system this advanced uses a lot of metrics for measuring, and would have to integrate or account for the systems that make the F-35 particularly stealthy when it comes to targeting. The US cannot rule out that the S-400 platform would not be accessible by Russians electronically. So any integrated defense is going to expose information we have an interest in keeping safe to the people we're trying to stay safe from.

If the technology in the F-35 is really as advanced as we're acting like it is, which in fairness it probably is, efficiency in development aside, this is the only safe move.


tbh we should also cut Britain out of the F-35 too.
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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:43 am

Loben The 2nd wrote:
Kernen wrote:It really isn't.

Any defense system will have to be integrated with existing technology so the defense system doesn't shoot allied aircraft or vehicles. A defense system this advanced uses a lot of metrics for measuring, and would have to integrate or account for the systems that make the F-35 particularly stealthy when it comes to targeting. The US cannot rule out that the S-400 platform would not be accessible by Russians electronically. So any integrated defense is going to expose information we have an interest in keeping safe to the people we're trying to stay safe from.

If the technology in the F-35 is really as advanced as we're acting like it is, which in fairness it probably is, efficiency in development aside, this is the only safe move.


tbh we should also cut Britain out of the F-35 too.


I am entirely unclear on UK electronic security or integration with non-ally systems, so I couldn't begin to speak on it.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:43 am

Good. Turkies have no business piloting fighter planes. :)
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