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Should Slavery/Indentured Servitude be brought back?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Economically or Societally speaking, unfree labor is...

Good
26
9%
Bad
235
85%
Neither
9
3%
Other (Explain)
7
3%
 
Total votes : 277

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Saiwania
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Should Slavery/Indentured Servitude be brought back?

Postby Saiwania » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:32 am

I know that this proposal seems monstrous and a huge step backwards in terms of the progression of history, but just hear me out?

Indentured Servitude was a process where someone provided free labor to one or more specific employers for a finite period of time, as determined by a formal contract that was agreed to. It was used for example, as an alternative means by which someone could pay off their debts if they were in debt. This seems like a good deal to me on the face of it. If someone is involuntarily employed, they could maybe make the best of it and come out better by the end of it, if they picked up any skills from the work that was assigned to them. The main downside is that people in that situation weren't paid, but perhaps got free room and board or other accomodations.

Slavery on the other hand, was the buying and selling of humans as property. The owner of a person could do whatever they wished, but usually the point was to exploit free labor from people. One key reason for Slavery going away that is often given, was because it became unprofitable. The cost of ownership for a person, is the need to provide food, water, and shelter for them at minimum. Hence, the cost of having slaves- is like the cost of raising a child or dependent in that respect. Back in 1850, a slave in the American South cost the equivalent of $40,000 in today's money- because it was difficult to capture and transport an African slave across the Atlantic by sail, but today- a slave is rumored to cost only $90 on average globally speaking, despite it now being illegal worldwide.

If we want to try to extract even more productivity for the economy, it isn't enough to have near full employment like is the case for the US economy during Donald Trump's presidency. We need to perhaps try to utilize the under 5% of the population that isn't employed for whatever reason, and the people who aren't employed but aren't looking- except for the truly disabled or retired people. On paper, there are more jobs than there are qualified people to fill those jobs. To get some wealth extracted from an untapped resource such as the normally un-employable people, one way to do this would be yes- unfree labor. Even if people don't like the concept for moral reasons.

One controversial opinion some people have about slavery historically speaking is: "What are Blacks complaining about? They got free room and board in exchange for some free labor." And this is a sentiment I can partially understand, even though it is brash and insensitive. If slavery were more regulated, I think that perhaps it would be the case that certain abuses and excesses could be prevented ahead of time, while still facilitating the use of unpaid labor to bring about cheaper prices for certain products and more work in general getting done.

The homeless as one example, I see as a ripe candidate for possibly benefiting from slavery, in that as slaves- they'd be taken off of the streets but would get free room and board, but in exchange- they provide whatever unpaid labor that is needed. Lots of people could make lots of money if a slave trade was active again. There are huge pools of labor out there that're idle that could in theory be made active if one or more forms of unfree labor were allowed.

If unfree labor in general, good or bad for the economy and society overall? Why or why not?

I've walked around my family's backyard and know that they can't afford to pay a professional landscaper an actual salary, but they can afford to host one or more individuals; and yard help is clearly needed. I do get tempted to think, that with one or more slaves, the unpaid labor they could provide would be a solution my family would clearly benefit from, if it were the case that slavery were legal. Once no more work is needed, slaves can always be sold to someone else who has work that needs doing, or can be formally set free.

If I were desperate enough to have something paid off as a last resort, I'd seriously consider signing away my liberty to get more decent living conditions as someone's slave, as an alternative to living in squalor on the streets. There is always the risk that an owner can be abusive or unreasonable, but if you do the work satisfactorily, it arguably isn't likely. The abuse of slaves might be limited if it were treated akin to how animal cruelty is handled.

I think it is the case that to some extent, slavery has never truly gone away. That it still happens to this day, because in at least some contexts- it does manage to still be profitable. Such as what is alleged to have recently happened within the UK: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/05/worl ... avery.html
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:33 am

No. It's bad in all contexts.
/thread

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Kannap
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Postby Kannap » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:33 am

No

/thread
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:34 am

Kannap wrote:No

/thread

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Azlaake
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Postby Azlaake » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:34 am

An absolutely horrible idea
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:35 am

No.
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Latin Islands
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Postby Latin Islands » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:35 am

No. No. No. Never.

Slavery might have never gone away, but that doesn't mean it has to permanently stay.
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:36 am

Nah b

/thread
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:37 am

Nope.

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Bluelight-R006
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Postby Bluelight-R006 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:37 am

No. Never. Ne’er e’er.

The fact humans could be sold at a finite price for the working of others itself is messed up. I vote for a society of equality.

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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:38 am

Oh you want slavery back? Okay Sai hop into the wheatfields your my slave, do what master says now boy, and if you slip up ill beat you within an inch of your life and whip you, oh its soo beneficial to have slavery back right?


Fucking christ, also lol:
One controversial opinion some people have about slavery historically speaking is: "What are Blacks complaining about? They got free room and board in exchange for some free labor." And this is a sentiment I can partially understand, even though it is brash and insensitive.
The fucking Nazi finds the sentiment of "Shut up blacks what were you complaining about, you had no rights and were treated like fucking dogshit and even killed but you had a roof" to be understandable.
Last edited by The Huskar Social Union on Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:38 am

Also:

The abuse of slaves might be limited if it were treated akin to how animal cruelty is handled.


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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:39 am

Don’t most economists agree slavery actually hurts the economy?
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:40 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Don’t most economists agree slavery actually hurts the economy?

A little something about taking people out of the free market.
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.
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Alexandria Eschate
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Postby Alexandria Eschate » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:40 am

Jesus

If your family needs some help with yard work, but can't afford to hire a professional, just find some neighbor kids who'd happily toil away for a few bucks. That's how it's always worked.

The solution to the homeless population is not to enslave them. And with the massive amount of untreated mental health issues among the homeless, just how effective laborers do you think they'd be? Certainly, a public works/jobs program can help alleviate some, but why on earth would you leap right to enslavement?

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Imperial Esplanade
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Postby Imperial Esplanade » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:41 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:Don’t most economists agree slavery actually hurts the economy?

That depends on who you ask.

https://www.economist.com/free-exchange ... omic-sense
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:41 am

Alexandria Eschate wrote:Jesus

If your family needs some help with yard work, but can't afford to hire a professional, just find some neighbor kids who'd happily toil away for a few bucks. That's how it's always worked.

The solution to the homeless population is not to enslave them. And with the massive amount of untreated mental health issues among the homeless, just how effective laborers do you think they'd be? Certainly, a public works/jobs program can help alleviate some, but why on earth would you leap right to enslavement?

Look at Sai's flag and nation type lol. Are you surprised?
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:42 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Don’t most economists agree slavery actually hurts the economy?

A little something about taking people out of the free market.

A chunk of the population that just can’t buy consumer goods. Also I remember reading something about the plantations in the south just using slave labor for everything, becoming too self sufficient to really contribute to the local economy
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The Free Joy State
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Free Joy State » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:42 am

To quote "The Wild Rover":

No. Nay. Never.

No, nay, never. No more.

And it's no. Nay. Never.

No. Never. No more.


In short, this is up there on the list of the worst ideas on NSG. And that takes some doing.
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Greater Cesnica
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:43 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Greater Cesnica wrote:A little something about taking people out of the free market.

A chunk of the population that just can’t buy consumer goods. Also I remember reading something about the plantations in the south just using slave labor for everything, becoming too self sufficient to really contribute to the local economy

And don't even get started on how this shit turns into sex slavery.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:44 am

You have an idealised conception of slavery if you think that abuse is unlikely. Your average slave master would not be a combination of personal trainer, social support and confidant. Relatively few may engage in the most heinous kinds of abuse, but a position whereby one individual is granted ownership over another is not particularly well balanced in terms of protecting the wellbeing of the owned party, especially in areas of life behind closed doors without the possibility of outside scrutiny.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Nea Byzantia
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Postby Nea Byzantia » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:44 am

No...Our Lord said "Forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven our debtors."

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Imbalistan
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Postby Imbalistan » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:46 am

Yeah, no. Look at the pakastani textile industry.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:46 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:A chunk of the population that just can’t buy consumer goods. Also I remember reading something about the plantations in the south just using slave labor for everything, becoming too self sufficient to really contribute to the local economy

And don't even get started on how this shit turns into sex slavery.

Oh I’m not even touching the obvious moral problems. I’m talking from the economic standpoint so that people who don’t care about human rights understand it’s bad from every perspective
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Bluelight-R006
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Postby Bluelight-R006 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:47 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:You have an idealised conception of slavery if you think that abuse is unlikely. Your average slave master would not be a combination of personal trainer, social support and confidant. Relatively few may engage in the most heinous kinds of abuse, but a position whereby one individual is granted ownership over another is not particularly well balanced in terms of protecting the wellbeing of the owned party, especially in areas of life behind closed doors without the possibility of outside scrutiny.

Can confirm this. Many abuse of maids in Singapore, and rarely has anything been done to counteract the issue. Trusting humans is to be caring and nice all the time, everyone... is just dumb.

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