NATION

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Christmas: Glass Box Edition

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Should we grant the prisoner the Christmas meal?

Yes (Christmas is a time of joy and everyone should have some)
41
75%
No (revoke her Christmas rights for another year)
14
25%
 
Total votes : 55

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Infected Mushroom
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Christmas: Glass Box Edition

Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:36 am

Please consider the following hypothetical:

The following scenario is designed to get you to think about the meaning of Christmas and whether or not everyone has a right to celebrate it.

You are a government administrator in an alternate timeline of medieval Europe. You’ve been appointed to serve a six month term as a member of a decision-making committee. Members of this committee occasionally vote on important matters relating to the administration of top secret prisons throughout the nation (the administration itself is carried out and headed by a different department).

Recently, an issue has come up for a vote. It concerns the prisoner in the top secret anti-mage prison (the Glass Box), convicted war criminal and mass murderer Witch Queen Annie Holstadt.

The following background regarding the prisoner may be relevant to a full consideration of the issue at vote:

A few years ago, the young Annie Holstadt created a powerful magical army and attempted to take over all of Europe in a war of aggression. During the war, Holstadt killed millions of innocent civilians and burned many towns and cities to the ground with magical fire. In the concluding stages of the war, Annie attempted to wipe out the fairy peoples.

The European monarchies eventually rallied together. Annie was subsequently defeated, captured and sentenced to life imprisonment in the Glass Box.


Annie has been imprisoned inside the Glass Box for close to two complete years now. She has become extremely traumatized as a result of her imprisonment and the loss of her magical powers. For security reasons, she’s kept completely inside her cell at all times and isn’t allowed to go outside at all.

As a result of the anti-magical properties of the Glass Box which have varying seasonal cycles, Annie suffers from partial paralysis for long stretches of the year, literally tied to her bed and having to sip her food through straws.

When she’s able to walk around, she spends most of her days staring blankly out of the transparent walls of her cell or reading the limited books that are allowed (ex the Bible). The overall effects of the Glass Box make her feel cold and weak all year round. A specialized staff keeps her on medications all year round so she doesn’t die and has to serve the life sentence.

Image




Christmas, the most important holiday season of the year in your culture, is coming up on the calendar. Traditionally, all prisoners throughout Europe are served a special high quality meal on Christmas eve. If the prisoner is high born, then they are traditionally served some wine as well. This is because Christmas is considered a time of joy, family and spiritual reflection, and although prisoners are separated from family, they should still be allowed to celebrate the important time in some way.

In “exceptional and rare circumstances,” the Christmas meal right can be revoked.

The issue for you to vote on (as a member of a committee of five people) is as follows: Should Annie get her special Christmas meal or not?

In the previous year, the members of your committee voted 3 to 2 that Annie’s Christmas meal rights should be revoked. Most of the written justifications for the votes said something to the effect of: “It would be improper to give a Christmas meal to a witch who has murdered millions of innocents and committed every manner of unacceptable crimes against the Lord Himself.”

However, a whole year has gone by and now a new committee with new members (including you) gets to vote on this issue again.

The prison staff report that Annie, having recovered from a random bout of paralysis, has been looking forward to her Christmas meal.

The staff say that she has been very quiet and “well behaved” throughout the year. She has cooperated with government interrogations and state psychiatrists/criminologists seeking to profile and study her. The staff remarks smugly that compared to the non-magical criminals at the max security cells, she’s surprisingly easy to order around and hasn’t given them much trouble. The staff recommends that you grant her the Christmas meal because “it’s a small treat, and it is Christmas, even for mass murderers” and they reassure you it will be served in good faith.

Please discuss the following:


1. Do you, as a member of the committee of 5, choose to vote in favor of or against serving the Christmas meal to the imprisoned Witch Queen? Why or why not?

2. What does Christmas mean to you personally? Does everyone have a right to celebrate Christmas? How does that factor into your decision with respect to 1?

3. What is your view concerning the tradition of serving special meals in general to prisoners on holidays like Thanksgiving or New Year?


Assume that there are no security risks with serving the meal and that the logistics of actually serving the meal is left entirely to another department and their discretion (you are only in charge of the go ahead vote at the very top, nothing more).

This scenario is subjects to edits and clarifications.

Please assume that because the food is prepared by the order of magic users and special security, it is impossible to poison or otherwise harm/kill the prisoner.

I believe that everyone should have a right (albeit a limited one if your a prisoner for crimes) to celebrate Christmas. Christmas should be for everyone and it is a time of joy, forgiveness, and spiritual self reflection. I believe it would reflect well on the state to grant Holstadt this small benefit. It would also serve as a limited act of kindness considering her bleak state of existence. Hence I would vote to give her the Christmas meal.

It follow from my overall position that I would support serving special meals to prisoners on holidays in general.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:12 am, edited 5 times in total.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:09 am

1. Yes, I vote in favour. It's the humane thing to do.
2. Personally: Eating more than what's healthy. People have the right to celebrate whatever they want, Hanukkah for example.
3. One of the thing with prisoners is that usually they need to be reintroduced to society (barring life long sentences). For this, it is vital that they have the ability to participate in said society's traditions (of course, while staying in prison).
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:11 am

Of course she deserves a Christmas dinner, I'm not a monster. I'll also have it poisoned since it's clear a version of me in a previous life didn't forgot to kill her like planed.
And there but for fortune, may go you or I.

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:18 am

Heloin wrote:Of course she deserves a Christmas dinner, I'm not a monster. I'll also have it poisoned since it's clear a version of me in a previous life didn't forgot to kill her like planed.


I mean, the scenario does say the logistics involving the meal is left to another department

They would prepare it themselves and have it tested for everything (signs of magical contamination, poison, drugs etc)

It’s the same mage order from the previous hypothetical, they want her alive for study and information

You’re a different character this time (a non magical administrator)

Poisoning it is highly impractical

...

Whether you vote yes or no, the administration of it is out of your hands; your committee is top level decisions only (and in a limited way)

Does this impact your answer?
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:21 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:1. Yes, I vote in favour. It's the humane thing to do.
2. Personally: Eating more than what's healthy. People have the right to celebrate whatever they want, Hanukkah for example.
3. One of the thing with prisoners is that usually they need to be reintroduced to society (barring life long sentences). For this, it is vital that they have the ability to participate in said society's traditions (of course, while staying in prison).


On the whole I agree

Also, small pleasures should be granted on special occasions I think
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:22 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Of course she deserves a Christmas dinner, I'm not a monster. I'll also have it poisoned since it's clear a version of me in a previous life didn't forgot to kill her like planed.


I mean, the scenario does say the logistics involving the meal is left to another department

They would prepare it themselves and have it tested for everything (signs of magical contamination, poison, drugs etc)

It’s the same mage order from the previous hypothetical, they want her alive for study and information

You’re a different character this time (a non magical administrator)

Poisoning it is highly impractical

...

Whether you vote yes or no, the administration of it is out of your hands; your committee is top level decisions only (and in a limited way)

Does this impact your answer?

Doesn't impact my decision in any capacity. I already know all the administrates are morons because Witch Hitler is still alive. So seeing that they are morons I fully expected to easily circumvent them in some way.
And there but for fortune, may go you or I.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:24 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
I mean, the scenario does say the logistics involving the meal is left to another department

They would prepare it themselves and have it tested for everything (signs of magical contamination, poison, drugs etc)

It’s the same mage order from the previous hypothetical, they want her alive for study and information

You’re a different character this time (a non magical administrator)

Poisoning it is highly impractical

...

Whether you vote yes or no, the administration of it is out of your hands; your committee is top level decisions only (and in a limited way)

Does this impact your answer?

Doesn't impact my decision in any capacity. I already know all the administrates are morons because Witch Hitler is still alive. So seeing that they are morons I fully expected to easily circumvent them in some way.


They take a different ethical position for sure.

But their competence is demonstrated by their successful management of the Glass Box systems (no one has ever broken out)
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Linderman
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Postby Linderman » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:28 am

I serve it to her. It’s the humane thing to do.

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:28 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:1. Yes, I vote in favour. It's the humane thing to do.
2. Personally: Eating more than what's healthy. People have the right to celebrate whatever they want, Hanukkah for example.
3. One of the thing with prisoners is that usually they need to be reintroduced to society (barring life long sentences). For this, it is vital that they have the ability to participate in said society's traditions (of course, while staying in prison).


I just realized, a Dutch Christmas tradition is to let people out of a glass box with Christmas :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serious_Request

Serious Request is a family of annual multi-day, multimedia fundraising events for International Red Cross initiatives, typically hosted by radio stations in the week before Christmas. (...) During the Dutch 3FM Serious Request, three popular radio DJs are locked up for six days in a small temporary radio studio (the "Glass House")
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:29 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:1. Yes, I vote in favour. It's the humane thing to do.
2. Personally: Eating more than what's healthy. People have the right to celebrate whatever they want, Hanukkah for example.
3. One of the thing with prisoners is that usually they need to be reintroduced to society (barring life long sentences). For this, it is vital that they have the ability to participate in said society's traditions (of course, while staying in prison).


I just realized, a Dutch Christmas tradition is to let people out of a glass box with Christmas :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serious_Request

Serious Request is a family of annual multi-day, multimedia fundraising events for International Red Cross initiatives, typically hosted by radio stations in the week before Christmas. (...) During the Dutch 3FM Serious Request, three popular radio DJs are locked up for six days in a small temporary radio studio (the "Glass House")


Wow... what a... coincidence

Interesting

I did not know about this tradition in the Netherlands
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:42 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Doesn't impact my decision in any capacity. I already know all the administrates are morons because Witch Hitler is still alive. So seeing that they are morons I fully expected to easily circumvent them in some way.


They take a different ethical position for sure.

But their competence is demonstrated by their successful management of the Glass Box systems (no one has ever broken out)

People said the same thing about Alcatraz.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:43 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
They take a different ethical position for sure.

But their competence is demonstrated by their successful management of the Glass Box systems (no one has ever broken out)

People said the same thing about Alcatraz.


What’s your view with regards to 3?
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:58 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:People said the same thing about Alcatraz.


What’s your view with regards to 3?

Prisoners still should have some of the comforts of home. A special Christmas dinner or stuff for other holidays, I'm 100% behind prisoner rights and so forth. Plus in this scenario I'm still choosing the humane option by killing her.
And there but for fortune, may go you or I.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:03 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
What’s your view with regards to 3?

Prisoners still should have some of the comforts of home. A special Christmas dinner or stuff for other holidays, I'm 100% behind prisoner rights and so forth. Plus in this scenario I'm still choosing the humane option by killing her.


And if I clarify that it’s a premise that she cannot be poisoned?

(I’ve edited/clarified)

Would you choose to serve her the meal or deny it to her?

The reason I do so is because I don’t want the poll to get confused between people feeding her and people trying to poison

The dilemma is about feeding/not feeding a mass murderer a special Christmas meal in good faith
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:06 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Prisoners still should have some of the comforts of home. A special Christmas dinner or stuff for other holidays, I'm 100% behind prisoner rights and so forth. Plus in this scenario I'm still choosing the humane option by killing her.


And if I clarify that it’s a premise that she cannot be poisoned?

(I’ve edited/clarified)

Would you choose to serve her the meal or deny it to her?

My position has not changed, she will get here Christmas dinner and will get poisoned.

The reason I do so is because I don’t want the poll to get confused between people feeding her and people trying to poison

The dilemma is about feeding/not feeding a mass murderer a special Christmas meal in good faith

Don't worry, I didn't and won't poll so I won't be effecting that much.
Last edited by Heloin on Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:33 am

Resign from the committee in protest of the inhumane treatment being employed in this prison and blow the whistle on this anti-magic cell. Who cares about Christmas? The government is torturing people.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:35 am

Ifreann wrote:Resign from the committee in protest of the inhumane treatment being employed in this prison and blow the whistle on this anti-magic cell. Who cares about Christmas? The government is torturing people.


Why not vote for her meal first before doing so?

Help her a bit?
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:39 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Resign from the committee in protest of the inhumane treatment being employed in this prison and blow the whistle on this anti-magic cell. Who cares about Christmas? The government is torturing people.


Why not vote for her meal first before doing so?

Help her a bit?

Who cares about Christmas? The government is torturing people.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:45 am

Ifreann wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Why not vote for her meal first before doing so?

Help her a bit?

Who cares about Christmas? The government is torturing people.


I mean, this is an alternate medieval ages

do you believe prisoners should get special meals in Christmas?

...

I can definitely see how by modern standards it could be construed as torture
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Jarian
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Postby Jarian » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:49 am

With conditions being so awful, she should get her special meal. Seeing as everyone else (including other prisoners) get one then she should too, especially as security is not a concern here. I'm siding with with Ifreann, but I'd let her and the other prisoners enjoy their meals before becoming a whistle blower. That way they get two presents.
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:53 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Who cares about Christmas? The government is torturing people.


I mean, this is an alternate medieval ages

Clearly not. There's advanced medicine and psychiatry, modern bureaucracy and terminology. Clearly this is the modern era, it just happened earlier.

do you believe prisoners should get special meals in Christmas?

Humane treatment and freedom from torture is far more important than trivial cultural traditions like that.
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Postby Imbalistan » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:56 am

I know I may sound inhumane, but no. Okay, maybe like a leftover turkey leg, but come on, I dont want to give a war criminal a whole celebration.
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Postby The Free Joy State » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:15 am

Haven't I killed this woman twice already?

Okay:

1. Playing as the character, I'm with Heloin. Her time has come. My character is poisoning her Christmas dinner. On the plus-side, it will be beautifully cooked, and my character will let her decorate her cell. Sorry, Witch Hitler.

2. As myself: Christmas means spending time with loved ones, eating too much and watching The Sound of Music (while avoiding the Queen's speech). People have a right to celebrate Christmas however they prefer, or not at all if they'd rather.

3. As myself: I favour humane treatment for prisoners, including access to appropriate medical care and educational opportunities to reduce the chance of recidivism. Special meals on special occasions would probably come under this.

I also didn't choose a poll answer.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:30 am

Imbalistan wrote:I know I may sound inhumane, but no. Okay, maybe like a leftover turkey leg, but come on, I dont want to give a war criminal a whole celebration.


but is she not already in a lot of pain?

why not give her the special meal?
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Imbalistan
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Postby Imbalistan » Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:33 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Imbalistan wrote:I know I may sound inhumane, but no. Okay, maybe like a leftover turkey leg, but come on, I dont want to give a war criminal a whole celebration.


but is she not already in a lot of pain?

why not give her the special meal?

If I keep a Taliban leader in prison, a man who was responsible for horrific terror attacks, and let me remind you, was not forced to do them, would you want to treat him out?
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