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Wrong way to play?

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Lottielan
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Founded: Apr 14, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Wrong way to play?

Postby Lottielan » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:29 pm

I’ve been playing now for the last couple of months & enjoying it.

However I received the following message from a game Mod yesterday:

Frisbeeteria wrote:
I keep seeing your nation name in Bids on cards I'm drawing. You're bidding at or below Junk value. I don't know how successful you are with that, but I'll certainly never sell to you even at base junk value if you price like that. It's really quite rude, to be honest.
Anyone who buys URs for 0.21, rares for 0.11, and uncommons for 0.06 or higher will get my spares. Sometimes I'll even sell at junk for commons and uncommons. But players like you who post insulting bids I'll do my best to shut out. I'll even overbid you on cards I don't particularly want simply because your rudeness annoys me.
You can of course ignore me, block me, or whatever. Or you can join the ranks of civilized players and let other players make a tiny profit when they sell you the cards you clearly want. I'm sure I'll never contact you again - your actions will speak for themselves. Choose wisely.


What is everyone’s opinion on this?
Is there a right & wrong way to play?
Just to note, in case anyone is curious, my below JV bids are part of my method of keeping track of what I’ve got in my collection. However, if someone wants to sell below JV, I’ll never say no to that!

I’d like to add that my contact with others in the community has been great, people like 9003 & Matrixulated have been helpful & extremely generous to me starting out.

Unfortunately messages like the above - from an actual game moderator. Has definitely soured my enjoyment of the game.

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The Sherpa Empire
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Founded: Jan 15, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Sherpa Empire » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:33 pm

Mods are players too and they have opinions same as anyone else. That is Fris the player, not Fris the mod.
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Christian Confederation
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Posts: 547
Founded: Dec 12, 2018
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Christian Confederation » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:34 pm

I don't really buy cards, I mostly just junk what I don't want and keep the rest.

But I hope you keep having fun.
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Refuge Isle
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Founded: Dec 14, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Refuge Isle » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:07 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:Mods are players too and they have opinions same as anyone else. That is Fris the player, not Fris the mod.

The player or the mod, it's a pretty rude message. Under junk bids are annoying but not likely to get a seller. The market works bad or ineffective strategies out and doesn't really need a top ten wealthy player to invent their own sanctions to try to lock someone out of the game.

If any practice is ideologically a "wrong" way to play, it's dropping but people seem fine with that when the opportunity surfaces. Ideally, just junk cards and buy cards you want at their list value and you'll be the #38 deck without pissing too many people off :p

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Ponderosa
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Founded: Feb 10, 2013
Anarchy

Postby Ponderosa » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:13 am

Personally, I find it annoying too. That's why I made a post here asking why people do it. I got a couple of responses.

Frisbeeteria wrote:It's a placeholder. By having a bid on a card, it automatically shows up on your page=deck/show_trades=auctions page the instant someone matches bids with asks.

I have 0.04 bids on all Legendaries, so any time one comes on sale, I get to watch the entire auction.


I found this explanation satisfactory. Often if I see someone bidding below junk value, I'll place an ask and telegram the bidder asking them to raise their bid (as per the advice of Erratica). I have to admit I'm guilty of underbidding sometimes as well, although nowadays I try to bid a little over junk value at least - just so the owner has a modicum of incentive to sell to me.

Don't know why Fris suddenly has a problem with it, but I don't think you need to worry about actually being punished. Play how you like. There's no rules with the card game - just norms promoted mostly by ultra-rich card farmers.
Last edited by Ponderosa on Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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NERVUN
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Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:23 am

*Mod hat on*
To clarify, we DO NOT MODERATE via our personal TG accounts. As it was stated here, you got a TG from Fris-as-a-player, not from Frisbeeteria, NationStates Senior Game Moderator (And snappy dresser). If that was the case, it would come from a TG marked NationStates Moderators. Why Fris feels the way he does, I do not know. You'd have to ask him. But you're not playing wrong or against the rules.
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Lottielan
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Founded: Apr 14, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lottielan » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:39 am

Really interesting comments so far,

NERVUN wrote:*Mod hat on*
To clarify, we DO NOT MODERATE via our personal TG accounts. As it was stated here, you got a TG from Fris-as-a-player, not from Frisbeeteria...


Thanks for clarifying that, I didn’t appreciate there was a difference on nationstates.

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Zetastan
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Founded: Apr 25, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Zetastan » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:40 am

I've ALWAYS bidded at junk price and no one have ever complained about that. Of course I raised the price in case of auctions but only if the price seemed fair for the card class.

I can't see where is the problem, it's normal to search for the lowest price possible.

I find much more scandalous to ask outrageous prices for low-grade cards (once I saw an Uncommon Card sold for 13.00!!).

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Bluelight-R006
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Founded: Mar 31, 2017
Anarchy

Postby Bluelight-R006 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:47 am

This isn’t a wrong way to play the game. Many people around the world attempt to negotiate below the reasonable price of whatever they’re buying. It’s not an insult, it’s just a business strategy that a lot of people use worldwide.

It’s not like the seller will accept the bid; too. The seller has every right to choose the low bid or a higher one.

It sure isn’t fair to the seller, but it’s the seller’s choice anyway, so they decide on what happens to themselves, too. If it’s unfair, turn it down. Rude? It’s not.

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Ponderosa
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Founded: Feb 10, 2013
Anarchy

Postby Ponderosa » Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:50 am

Zetastan wrote:I've ALWAYS bidded at junk price and no one have ever complained about that. Of course I raised the price in case of auctions but only if the price seemed fair for the card class.

I can't see where is the problem, it's normal to search for the lowest price possible.

I find much more scandalous to ask outrageous prices for low-grade cards (once I saw an Uncommon Card sold for 13.00!!).


Coming to defend that too: sometimes I'll place an extremely high ask on something just so I know not to accidentally junk it. Since you can't junk cards you're offering, it provides a layer of protection against me going "Oooh, an Uncommon. Better junk it."
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Demoness
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Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby Demoness » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:03 am

I love all these "rules". I've gotten a rude telegram telling me to never penny bid and that he backed off when I had a "real" bid (nevermind that my original bid was "real" and he outbid me in the last ten seconds). The next week he was penny bidding all over the place. People make these "rules" and only follow them when it suits them. That's why I stopped playing.

As far as bids are concerned, if I'm going to junk something and see a bid at JV, then I'll sell because someone is clearly collecting it. Likewise, I don't see an issue on bidding JV if I only kinda want it. Bidding under JV is unlikely to generate a sale, but it's no more "insulting" than having a penny bid to "keep track".

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Refuge Isle
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Founded: Dec 14, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Refuge Isle » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:12 am

Selling a card at junk value is community service for all the other cards we over-inflate :lol:

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Lottielan
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Founded: Apr 14, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lottielan » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:14 am

Refuge Isle wrote:Selling a card at junk value is community service for all the other cards we over-inflate :lol:


I like the theory. You could call it the “equalising effect” :lol:

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Giant Baba
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Founded: Jun 23, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Giant Baba » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:27 am

I don't think there is a 'wrong' way to play. This is a game, value is subjective, we voluntarily participate for personal fun and enjoyment. Bidding at or below Junk value can create both liquidity and price deflation for low demand cards (and the Deck values of the players who hold them). For example, there are even some Legendary tier cards (with a Junk value of 1) that only carry standing high bids of .01 or .05. They hold a high CMV relative to the bank levels of most players, making them out of reach or unattractive to players who don't anticipate a high return on future upstart. If you check the trade history, often these will be long time market laggards.

There is a practical logic to trades occurring here from both the perspective of both buyers and sellers, as it can facilitate trades from card holding players who want the immediate value of capital over the inherent Junk/CMV of the card and anticipate other players will step in and bid the value of the card higher to at least beyond Junk level. The risks on the part of the seller are that i. no additional demand will materialize and the card will end up selling at a huge discount to Junk/CMV or ii. a holder of multiple copies of the card in question will use the arbitrage to buy at the discount while selling into whatever demand that does come. All part of the fun of the game.

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Christ Triumphant
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Founded: Nov 07, 2017
Father Knows Best State

Postby Christ Triumphant » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:37 am

I mean, there's nothing wrong with what you're doing, morally speaking.

The problem is, if you place a bid at or below Junk Price, that means the player selling the card gets either the same amount or less than if they had simply pressed the "Junk" button. Why would someone want to wait an hour for a sale to go through the market just to receive the same amount that they could have gotten by junking it? There's just a lack of incentive for folks to sell to you.

So, it could be seen as a "wrong" tactic, in that it may not produce the results you're seeking as efficiently as another tactic. Fris was just pointing that out to you, but in his own special way.

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Guard Captain
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 22
Founded: Jan 20, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Guard Captain » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:53 am

As TG's from Fris go, that was quite light. Try penny bidding him sometime, he'll blow his top :blush:

Personally, I love your below JV cards. It encourages others to bid higher....right into the path of players like myself with multiple copies waiting to pounce.

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Tildalandia
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Posts: 6
Founded: Oct 04, 2018
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Tildalandia » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:58 am

Christ Triumphant wrote:I mean, there's nothing wrong Why would someone want to wait an hour for a sale to go through the market just to receive the same amount that they could have gotten by junking it?

Because maybe someone will bid on it as well^

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Dabberwocky
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Founded: Jan 26, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby Dabberwocky » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:05 am

The way I see it is as a tag for card that they would buy in the future. Also as stated above, it provides information when an auction on a card is happening.
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United States of Americanas
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Founded: Jan 23, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby United States of Americanas » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:19 am

There should be a way to search any card in the decks and have a “Watch” button like on eBay so you can monitor the card without bidding on it.

Probably something we should slide onto Max Barry’s desk to look over for a future game update.

That said, until that is made possible using penny bids as placeholders is only going to become more common.

I’m rather astounded Fris approached you in such a rude way. Sure, wasn’t logged in as a mod but still, someone who is a mod and acts like a twat in their personal account is only going to harm their general reputation.

Fris would have a horrible time if he ever saw the full Level 3 quotes for every stock on OTCBB:PK NASDAQ and NYSE :lol:
Last edited by United States of Americanas on Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Demoness
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Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby Demoness » Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:20 am

Dabberwocky wrote:The way I see it is as a tag for card that they would buy in the future. Also as stated above, it provides information when an auction on a card is happening.

You could just as easily place a fair bid on it, especially if it's not a big seller. Then you don't have to watch for auctions.

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Earthbound Immortal Squad
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Posts: 299
Founded: Jul 12, 2014
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Earthbound Immortal Squad » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:30 am

Demoness wrote:
Dabberwocky wrote:The way I see it is as a tag for card that they would buy in the future. Also as stated above, it provides information when an auction on a card is happening.

You could just as easily place a fair bid on it, especially if it's not a big seller. Then you don't have to watch for auctions.


I usually just place a solid price over the expected bid since most people don't like to spend too much so I usually get the cards I need. Another point though Fris is hardly an angel themselves when it comes to strategies. They often look at bids they have a card on offer then bid up forcing the other person to buy their card so they get card another copy of the card which they can then sell for even more which can be quite lucrative on a large scale. Just saying it's legitimate, it doesn't break any rules I may not like it but that is just how it is.
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Novum Imperium Atlanticum
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Founded: Mar 21, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby Novum Imperium Atlanticum » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:23 pm

I always bid and pay a fair price, but I do have a habit of auction sniping. Most of the times, I win, some I lose out on. I got a rude tg from someone who called me despicable. I lolled. How seriously can you take this...

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Toerana
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Founded: Nov 27, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Toerana » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:44 pm

Novum Imperium Atlanticum wrote:I always bid and pay a fair price, but I do have a habit of auction sniping. Most of the times, I win, some I lose out on. I got a rude tg from someone who called me despicable. I lolled. How seriously can you take this...

Some people take it very seriously xD
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Lottielan
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Founded: Apr 14, 2019
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lottielan » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:17 am

Toerana wrote: Some people take it very seriously xD


Think this may be where the issue lies.
I think if you play within the mechanics of the game however you enjoy it, that’s great. If that doesn’t bring joy anymore because people won’t play by “your rules”, maybe it’s time to walk away.

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Dr Neela Rasgotra
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Founded: Mar 28, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Dr Neela Rasgotra » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:11 am

Lottielan wrote:
Toerana wrote: Some people take it very seriously xD


Think this may be where the issue lies.
I think if you play within the mechanics of the game however you enjoy it, that’s great. If that doesn’t bring joy anymore because people won’t play by “your rules”, maybe it’s time to walk away.

So you just telling Frisbeeteria to walk away, because enough people supported your point of view.^
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