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India: Impregnate your wife or face the music

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Galloism
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India: Impregnate your wife or face the music

Postby Galloism » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:14 pm

India:

Maharashtra: Court lets woman have baby with estranged hubby

Swati Deshpande | TNN | Updated: Jun 23, 2019, 0:49 IST

MUMBAI: In a rare plea before a family court, a 35-year-old woman caught in a divorce battle sought a second child with her estranged husband. She pleaded for conception through restoration of conjugal relations or in-vitro fertilisation before her biological clock times out.
In an order this week, the court cited international laws and treaties on personal autonomy and reproductive health to back her “reproductive rights” as being the “basic civil rights of a human being”. The court directed the couple to head for consultation with a marriage counsellor on June 24 and fix a meeting with an IVF expert within a month.

The husband opposed the plea as being illegal, an illusion and against social norms. But holding her request for her husband to donate his sperms for artificial insemination as a “legitimate, eugenic choice of hers” the court directed the couple to an assisted reproductive technology (ART) expert. The husband’s consent for ART is crucial.

Court backs woman’s plea, sends couple to ART expert

The estranged couple has been asked to go for “clinical consultation about the prospect and success of the (ART) procedure in their case”. The doctor has to submit a confidential report to the court later.

“A key aspect of personal autonomy are reproductive rights, which entail rights to make sexual and reproductive decisions,” the United Nations International Conference on Population and Development had said in its steering 1984 document that first defined the term reproductive health. Family Court Judge Swati Chauhan in Nanded invoked its salutary value in the woman’s case.

The judge observed the issue of reproductive rights is “emotionally debatable and gender intricate” and can generate legal and social complications and consequences. The court, though, added it can only hold that the woman has a right to reproduce and is entitled to exercise it but acknowledged that law has limitations. The husband’s consent for ART is crucial.
The couple, both professionals, have a minor child. The husband, who is based in Mumbai, had filed for divorce alleging cruelty by her in 2017 and she approached a court in Nanded for restitution. But while both petitions were pending, she also approached the Nanded family court in 2018 with an application to have another child with him. Her plea, said her lawyer Shivraj Patil, is that since she is 35, her fertile years are limited and she wants a second child to be a sibling to her first and support her in her old age.

The husband opposed her plea questioning its permissibility, legality and her intentions. He refused to have any more children with her, even through ART. “No spouse can be compelled to have conjugal relations directly or indirectly, without free consent,” his lawyer argued.
The woman cannot be faulted for her request, said the court. The husband’s consent is crucial though. The court observed that since both petitions are pending, her plea to have a second child through restoration of conjugal rights cannot be considered. Also, in any case, the judge observed, no court can ever enforce or compel any person to execute an order of restitution.
The judge, though, clarified that in this case “seeking ART procedure is neither in breach of any law nor is it violating any social written or unwritten norms. Moreover, the petitioner is ready to incur the full responsibility of the proposed child”.

Her assertion to raise the child doesn’t curtail its right to claim maintenance, said the court holding that thus the woman’s declaration is not against public policy. The order said, “The respondent may refuse ART by not giving his consent. But by unreasonable refusal he may expose himself to the legal and logical consequences which may follow.”

“Reproductive right is closely and directly related to women. But, in the patriarchal society in India, the majority of women lack the decision-making power,” the court observed.
The husband has to give monthly maintenance for their child who lives with her but the court had rejected her maintenance plea since she earns.

Judge Chauhan, in her order, said within its limited powers, the court can only hold that “she has a right to reproduce and that she is entitled to exercise it.” The judge also said, “Not allowing a fertile woman to procreate is like compelling her to sterilize. To curb or to curtail reproductive right may have a subtle and devastating demographic outcome.’’ The wife undertook to withdraw a criminal case of cruelty she has filed against her husband if he agrees to ART.


Bolding mine.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... p&from=mdr

Unsurprisingly, I am extensively outraged. The judge literally cited “reproductive rights” to tell someone that if they fail to reproduce that she will punish them with “legal and logical consequences” of that decision, which is a threat to throw the book at him in the divorce if he doesn’t fold and reproduce under compulsion said threat.

He has reproductive rights too - namely to not do so.

She may have a right to reproduce, but she has no right to reproduce with any particular man.

I’m also exceptionally suspicious regarding her criminal case of cruelty. Female abusers often turn to the law to act as proxies for furthering their abuse and control over their victim. The notion that she would attempt to get the court to force him to reproduce, after already being estranged, is very indicative of an abusive partner.

Reproductive coercion is a very common tactic among abusers. This just smells bad.

Regarding judges threatening men to reproduce under threat of punishment, what say ye NSG?
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First American Empire
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Postby First American Empire » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:08 pm

This is horrifying. It's basically court-mandated rape, and it's the antithesis of everything I believe as a feminist. "Reproductive Rights" means that people should not be forced to reproduce without their consent. This judge's interpretation is like interpreting "freedom of religion" as mandating forced conversions, or "freedom of speech" as being required to praise the government daily. It's completely, utterly insane.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:15 pm

Indian court mandates rape.
Why do I fail to be surprised?
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Postby Kowani » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:15 pm

Man, India’s getting shittier by the day.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:17 pm

This man wouldn't be in this situation if he weren't married to begin with.

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The Japanese Americans
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Postby The Japanese Americans » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:32 pm

Cue the outrage of several countries.
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Postby Thepeopl » Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:44 am

But what are her other options? Are there sperm banks in India? She can't commit adultury. She already has a child so no man will want her. Sleep with a foreign stranger and her child will suffer the consequences.

I also find it shocking that she needs 2 kids to look after her in her old age, but he doesn't?

So, if she has other options, the judge is bonkers. But in India, I think this ruling is logical.

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Postby Alien Overlord » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:17 am

Thepeopl wrote:But what are her other options? Are there sperm banks in India? She can't commit adultury. She already has a child so no man will want her. Sleep with a foreign stranger and her child will suffer the consequences.

I also find it shocking that she needs 2 kids to look after her in her old age, but he doesn't?

So, if she has other options, the judge is bonkers. But in India, I think this ruling is logical.

Logical maybe, but immoral to the highest degree. It's rape.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:08 am

This decision is based on human rights and not Indian law?
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Postby Bluelight-R006 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:11 am

Seriously, we’re going to say rape is okay now? I thought we had a basic understanding of morality.

Ethel mermania wrote:This decision is based on human rights and not Indian law?

It’s there so someone thought they could take advantage of it.

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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:33 am

I got to tell you, I have an issue with what we are calling rape these days. Go whack off in a cup, its humiliating, its uncalled for, it may even be sexual assault. But it ain't rape.
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Postby Aclion » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:37 am

Thepeopl wrote:But what are her other options? Are there sperm banks in India? She can't commit adultury. She already has a child so no man will want her. Sleep with a foreign stranger and her child will suffer the consequences.

I also find it shocking that she needs 2 kids to look after her in her old age, but he doesn't?

So, if she has other options, the judge is bonkers. But in India, I think this ruling is logical.

How is this any different from the argument incels use to say they're entitled to sex?
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Postby Bluelight-R006 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:42 am

Ethel mermania wrote:I got to tell you, I have an issue with what we are calling rape these days. Go whack off in a cup, its humiliating, its uncalled for, it may even be sexual assault. But it ain't rape.

Rape is having sexual intercourse forcefully with someone who doesn’t want it.

If the lady doesn’t want it but still has it, it’s kind of casual rape. In my opinion, it’s rape, just not as ‘strong’ as the ones we hear about today.

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Postby Aclion » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:45 am

Bluelight-R006 wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:I got to tell you, I have an issue with what we are calling rape these days. Go whack off in a cup, its humiliating, its uncalled for, it may even be sexual assault. But it ain't rape.

Rape is having sexual intercourse forcefully with someone who doesn’t want it.

If the lady doesn’t want it but still has it, it’s kind of casual rape. In my opinion, it’s rape, just not as ‘strong’ as the ones we hear about today.

Rape is sex without free consent, whether through force, coercion or fraud. This is rape.
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Postby Bluelight-R006 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:49 am

Aclion wrote:
Bluelight-R006 wrote:Rape is having sexual intercourse forcefully with someone who doesn’t want it.

If the lady doesn’t want it but still has it, it’s kind of casual rape. In my opinion, it’s rape, just not as ‘strong’ as the ones we hear about today.

Rape is sex without free consent, whether through force, coercion or fraud. This is rape.

Yep. That is rape.

On an OOC note, I tried to search the online Google dictionary to make sure I got it right, but it isn’t there.

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Eastfield Lodge
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Postby Eastfield Lodge » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:53 am

Aclion wrote:
Bluelight-R006 wrote:Rape is having sexual intercourse forcefully with someone who doesn’t want it.

If the lady doesn’t want it but still has it, it’s kind of casual rape. In my opinion, it’s rape, just not as ‘strong’ as the ones we hear about today.

Rape is sex without free consent, whether through force, coercion or fraud. This is rape.

Except no sex is taking place?
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The Japanese Americans
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Postby The Japanese Americans » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:13 am

Eastfield Lodge wrote:
Aclion wrote:Rape is sex without free consent, whether through force, coercion or fraud. This is rape.

Except no sex is taking place?


Okay, let me try this example.

If the court ordered you to cut off your finger and give it to your spouse, would you do it? This situation is the same thing. He's gonna have to give something from his own body to his wife if he doesn't want to face the music.
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Postby Eastfield Lodge » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:33 am

The Japanese Americans wrote:
Eastfield Lodge wrote:Except no sex is taking place?


Okay, let me try this example.

If the court ordered you to cut off your finger and give it to your spouse, would you do it? This situation is the same thing. He's gonna have to give something from his own body to his wife if he doesn't want to face the music.

Oh, I know this is terrible and all, don't mistake me. I'm just in the camp that this isn't "rape", as some people are calling it.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:35 am

Eastfield Lodge wrote:
The Japanese Americans wrote:
Okay, let me try this example.

If the court ordered you to cut off your finger and give it to your spouse, would you do it? This situation is the same thing. He's gonna have to give something from his own body to his wife if he doesn't want to face the music.

Oh, I know this is terrible and all, don't mistake me. I'm just in the camp that this isn't "rape", as some people are calling it.


Why don't you think this is rape?
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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East African Unitary State
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Postby East African Unitary State » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:35 am

Wait wait, what? Can someone give me the tldr version of this?
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Postby Gravlen » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:37 am

Before even starting to call it 'rape', especially since the judge repeatedly says the husband has to consent, can someone please clarify what "face the music" means in this regard?

“The respondent may refuse ART by not giving his consent. But by unreasonable refusal he may expose himself to the legal and logical consequences which may follow.”

What are the legal and logical consequences mentioned here?
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:37 am

East African Unitary State wrote:Wait wait, what? Can someone give me the tldr version of this?


A court has ruled that a man must donate his sperm or he will go to prison, as his wife is entitled to get pregnant from him. (She already has two children.).

The court ruled that it amounted to sterilizing her for him not to allow her to get pregnant. (Divorce is nonetheless legal in India so...).

Her assertion to raise the child doesn’t curtail its right to claim maintenance, said the court holding that thus the woman’s declaration is not against public policy. The order said, “The respondent may refuse ART by not giving his consent. But by unreasonable refusal he may expose himself to the legal and logical consequences which may follow.”

“Reproductive right is closely and directly related to women. But, in the patriarchal society in India, the majority of women lack the decision-making power,” the court observed.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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East African Unitary State
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Postby East African Unitary State » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:40 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
East African Unitary State wrote:Wait wait, what? Can someone give me the tldr version of this?


A court has ruled that a man must donate his sperm or he will go to prison, as his wife is entitled to get pregnant from him. (She already has two children.).

The court ruled that it amounted to sterilizing her for him not to allow her to get pregnant. (Divorce is nonetheless legal in India so...).

Uhhhhh......okaaaaay :unsure:

I guess i should be surprised, but I'm more confused thinking about what could possibly lead into this situation even...well, happen.
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Gravlen
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Postby Gravlen » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:42 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
East African Unitary State wrote:Wait wait, what? Can someone give me the tldr version of this?


A court has ruled that a man must donate his sperm or he will go to prison,

The court does not say he will go to prison.

Ostroeuropa wrote:as his wife is entitled to get pregnant from him. (She already has two children.).

One, not that it really matters.
Last edited by Gravlen on Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
EnragedMaldivians wrote:That's preposterous. Gravlens's not a white nationalist; Gravlen's a penguin.

Unio de Sovetaj Socialismaj Respublikoj wrote:There is no use arguing the definition of murder with someone who has a picture of a penguin with a chainsaw as their nations flag.

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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:42 am

East African Unitary State wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
A court has ruled that a man must donate his sperm or he will go to prison, as his wife is entitled to get pregnant from him. (She already has two children.).

The court ruled that it amounted to sterilizing her for him not to allow her to get pregnant. (Divorce is nonetheless legal in India so...).

Uhhhhh......okaaaaay :unsure:

I guess i should be surprised, but I'm more confused thinking about what could possibly lead into this situation even...well, happen.


Take a guess.

Her assertion to raise the child doesn’t curtail its right to claim maintenance, said the court holding that thus the woman’s declaration is not against public policy. The order said, “The respondent may refuse ART by not giving his consent. But by unreasonable refusal he may expose himself to the legal and logical consequences which may follow.”

“Reproductive right is closely and directly related to women. But, in the patriarchal society in India, the majority of women lack the decision-making power,” the court observed.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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