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[R] Trolling

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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Jolthig
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[R] Trolling

Postby Jolthig » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:30 pm

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Jolthig wrote:So...let me get this straight, because she advocates for liberal views like LGBT rights, she serves Iblis? Seriously?

Sure, yeah, they're sins in Islam, but that doesnt mean she is not helping to bring muslims into Congress. Her bravery and strong stand against constant harassment by the right wing media and the Islamophobic industry is admirable.

Islam is a religion, a way of life, a morality, not just an identity. If you stand against the first three then you stand against Islam.

It is not just a sin in Islam, it is a crime. It is regular flogging in Shafi'i school unless married then it is stoning but some scholars say beheading. It is flogging first offense in Hanafi school, stoning for repeat offense. In Hanbali school it is stoning or throwing off a building or cliff at judge's discretion. In Maliki school it's stoning. Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, advocated burning.

Islamophobia is a term designed to align Muslims with gays as a political block
Last edited by Jolthig on Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Al Mumtahanah
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Postby Al Mumtahanah » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:52 pm

These are the actual positions of these madhahib, this is not trolling.

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A Crimson
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Postby A Crimson » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:53 pm

Al Mumtahanah wrote:These are the actual positions of these madhahib, this is not trolling.


I think they meant the last sentence, which a person may think would be trolling/flamebait


also i'm the only one here who wasn't posted in the muslim thread that responded to this
Last edited by A Crimson on Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:59 pm

A Crimson wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:These are the actual positions of these madhahib, this is not trolling.


I think they meant the last sentence, which a person may think would be trolling/flamebait


also i'm the only one here who wasn't posted in the muslim thread that responded to this

If you don't have anything to report on for the player who is in question, the rules discourage one from posting in a report thread. The only time one is allowed to post in a moderation thread without reporting someone is if it's a discussion thread or if the reported player intends to defend himself or in turn, report the person who reported him.
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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:01 pm

Not seeing it as trolling.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:14 pm

NERVUN wrote:Not seeing it as trolling.

I fail to see how his post isn't trolling as the One Stop Rules Shop specifically outlines trolling as:

One Stop Rules Shop wrote:Trolling/Baiting/Gloating: Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). Someone disagreeing with you does not equate to trolling. Intent is incredibly important and will be judged by the moderators to the best of their abilities. Honest belief does not excuse trolling.


I will repost his post here:

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Jolthig wrote:So...let me get this straight, because she advocates for liberal views like LGBT rights, she serves Iblis? Seriously?

Sure, yeah, they're sins in Islam, but that doesnt mean she is not helping to bring muslims into Congress. Her bravery and strong stand against constant harassment by the right wing media and the Islamophobic industry is admirable.

Islam is a religion, a way of life, a morality, not just an identity. If you stand against the first three then you stand against Islam.

It is not just a sin in Islam, it is a crime. It is regular flogging in Shafi'i school unless married then it is stoning but some scholars say beheading. It is flogging first offense in Hanafi school, stoning for repeat offense. In Hanbali school it is stoning or throwing off a building or cliff at judge's discretion. In Maliki school it's stoning. Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, advocated burning.

Islamophobia is a term designed to align Muslims with gays as a political block

In our discussion about Ilhan Omar, I asked him why he says she is of Iblis as she advocates for LGBT rights and he replied with this post. Given that there are many LGBT users on this site who may be watching that discussion, they'll be offended at this post which calls for their punishments. If this isn't enough, then I would like a second opinion.
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:23 pm

Adding to the above post, since the One Stop Rules Shop also says it depends on the intentions of the player when they make any post that may violate the rules here is an earlier post by this user that makes me believe he was trolling by advocating for the punishment of LGBT people regardless of what the LGBT NSGers think. It was made before the reported post:

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Jolthig wrote:I don't approve of all the things she advocates for either, but she is way better than most politicians here and she still encourages other muslims to join the government. This is definitely takfir.

Yes it is, she serves Iblis, not Allah (swt).


While this post isn't actionable in of itself, I'm posting this because it in my opinion, lends support that he was trolling and attempting to inflame the LGBT NSGers with that post.
Last edited by Jolthig on Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:27 pm

Jolthig wrote:
NERVUN wrote:Not seeing it as trolling.

I fail to see how his post isn't trolling as the One Stop Rules Shop specifically outlines trolling as:

One Stop Rules Shop wrote:Trolling/Baiting/Gloating: Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). Someone disagreeing with you does not equate to trolling. Intent is incredibly important and will be judged by the moderators to the best of their abilities. Honest belief does not excuse trolling.


I will repost his post here:

Al Mumtahanah wrote:Islam is a religion, a way of life, a morality, not just an identity. If you stand against the first three then you stand against Islam.

It is not just a sin in Islam, it is a crime. It is regular flogging in Shafi'i school unless married then it is stoning but some scholars say beheading. It is flogging first offense in Hanafi school, stoning for repeat offense. In Hanbali school it is stoning or throwing off a building or cliff at judge's discretion. In Maliki school it's stoning. Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, advocated burning.

Islamophobia is a term designed to align Muslims with gays as a political block

In our discussion about Ilhan Omar, I asked him why he says she is of Iblis as she advocates for LGBT rights and he replied with this post. Given that there are many LGBT users on this site who may be watching that discussion, they'll be offended at this post which calls for their punishments. If this isn't enough, then I would like a second opinion.

Because if I am reading that correctly, he is describing what various schools of Islamic thought THINK about LGBT. If I called that trolling, I would have to outlaw anyone who posted any news article talking about LGBT issues in Africa, or how the Catholic Church outlaws divorce.

Stating "This is what other people think of this issue" does not trolling make. Saying "I agree and we should do this" is a different kettle of fish, but that is not what was stated here.
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NERVUN
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Postby NERVUN » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:28 pm

Jolthig wrote:Adding to the above post, since the One Stop Rules Shop also says it depends on the intentions of the player when they make any post that may violate the rules here is an earlier post by this user that makes me believe he was trolling by advocating for the punishment of LGBT people regardless of what the LGBT NSGers think. It was made before the reported post:

Al Mumtahanah wrote:Yes it is, she serves Iblis, not Allah (swt).


While this post isn't actionable in of itself, I'm posting this because it in my opinion, lends support that he was trolling and attempting to inflame the LGBT NSGers with that post.

I'm having a hard time seeing a claim that so-and-so politician serves the Devil is trolling...

We'd have to shut down the MAGA thread for that.
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:34 pm

Okay, may I have a second opinion on this? This will be my last attempt to make my case before I desist.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:38 pm

Jolthig wrote:Okay, may I have a second opinion on this? This will be my last attempt to make my case before I desist.

You said yourself you didn't think it was actionable.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:47 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Okay, may I have a second opinion on this? This will be my last attempt to make my case before I desist.

You said yourself you didn't think it was actionable.

I said, the post in of itself, referring to Ilhan Omar being an agent of the devil is of itself not actionable. What I have instead said is that it could lend support to the post regarding punishments in LGBT as trolling in my opinion. I specifically said the intention. Not the post of Ilhan omar being an agent of the devil in of itself, but the fact that I think it lends to support to the user trolling by advocating for punishment of LGBT people no matter what method as he himself stated that if anyone stands against Islamic principles (as Ilhan Omar supports LGBT rights), and hes basically saying that she should do the contrary by advocating for their punishments regardless of the method, that is why I thought it was trolling.

If it's not trolling. Then I don't know what else to say, but that many LGBT users will feel appalled and threatened by that post. If it's okay for someone else to advocate for the death of Iranian civilians, or another user days earlier advocating for the shooting of illegal immigrants, but this user saying punishment of LGBT people is okay regardless of the method with many LGBT users watching, then it is injustice to not see this as actionable in my opinion with all due respect.

If its still not actionable, then I'll desist, and you may lock this thread
Last edited by Jolthig on Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NERVUN » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:59 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:You said yourself you didn't think it was actionable.

I said, the post in of itself, referring to Ilhan Omar being an agent of the devil is of itself not actionable. What I have instead said is that it could lend support to the post regarding punishments in LGBT as trolling in my opinion. I specifically said the intention. Not the post of Ilhan omar being an agent of the devil in of itself, but the fact that I think it lends to support to the user trolling by advocating for punishment of LGBT people no matter what method as he himself stated that if anyone stands against Islamic principles (as Ilhan Omar supports LGBT rights), and hes basically saying that she should do the contrary by advocating for their punishments regardless of the method, that is why I thought it was trolling.

If it's not trolling. Then I don't know what else to say, but that many LGBT users will feel appalled and threatened by that post. If it's okay for someone else to advocate for the death of Iranian civilians, or another user days earlier advocating for the shooting of illegal immigrants, but this user saying punishment of LGBT people is okay regardless of the method with many LGBT users watching, then it is injustice to not see this as actionable in my opinion with all due respect.

If its still not actionable, then I'll desist, and you may lock this thread

I will light the second opinion beacon.
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Al Mumtahanah
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Postby Al Mumtahanah » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:07 pm

This was not posted in an LGBT thread or directed at LGBT posters this was in a Muslim thread pursuant to fiqh.......

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:09 pm

Al Mumtahanah wrote:This was not posted in an LGBT thread or directed at LGBT posters this was in a Muslim thread pursuant to fiqh.......

Irrelevant to the question of whether or not it's trolling.

That said, I misread Jolthig's post, taking it as talking only about Ilhan Omar's behavior and Al Mumtahanah's take on it. Looking further into it ... it is trolling and Al Mumtahanah gets warned for it.
Last edited by Farnhamia on Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:23 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Al Mumtahanah wrote:This was not posted in an LGBT thread or directed at LGBT posters this was in a Muslim thread pursuant to fiqh.......

Irrelevant to the question of whether or not it's trolling.

That said, I misread Jolthig's post, taking it as talking only about Ilhan Omar's behavior and Al Mumtahanah's take on it. Looking further into it ... it is trolling and Al Mumtahanah gets warned for it.

Thank you, Farn. As usual: *leaves gifts and goes about my day*
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:27 pm

On the basis of an exchange NERVUN and I just had, I'm asking for a ruling from one of the senior Mods.
Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:29 pm

Farnhamia wrote:On the basis of an exchange NERVUN and I just had, I'm asking for a ruling from one of the senior Mods.

...

I also agree, then.

/notamod

I am willing to present more arguments alongside Farn for why an action is justified and I am willing to present evidence and examples from past rulings for why an action should be taken. Otherwise, the senior mod can scroll through my arguments to prove my case, or rather our case.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:20 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:On the basis of an exchange NERVUN and I just had, I'm asking for a ruling from one of the senior Mods.

...

I also agree, then.

/notamod

I am willing to present more arguments alongside Farn for why an action is justified and I am willing to present evidence and examples from past rulings for why an action should be taken. Otherwise, the senior mod can scroll through my arguments to prove my case, or rather our case.

Thanks, if we want more, we'll ask for more. Right now, let the Wheels of Moderation turn.
Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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Postby North German Realm » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:24 am

I'm not sure if this counts, but I didn't want to open another thread for it given it's happening in the same Thread that Jolthig's original report was from (IDT)

viewtopic.php?p=35853539#p35853539

Al Mumtahanah wrote:It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Prophet said concerning those who do the action of the people of Lut: “Stone the upper and the lower, stone them both.” (Hasan)
Sunan Ibn Majah 3:20:256

Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver.
Tirmidhi 1:152

It was narrated from Ibn`Abbas that the Messenger of Allah said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lut, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.” (Hasan)
Sunan Ibn Majah 3:20:2561

One can justify that he's just narrating a Hadith, but given his previous posts, this might be a call for death -or more accurately murder- of homosexuals.
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Al Mumtahanah
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Postby Al Mumtahanah » Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:34 am

Those Ahadith were quoted in relation to a debate on what is meant by the sin of the people of Lut. They are quoted to prove it means sodony.

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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:13 pm

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Ok, just repeat yourself man. Alright. :roll:

You wondered why Pakistan prosecuted Ahmadiyya: besides denying Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was the final Prophet, it is because they are a religion founded by an express traitor to and therefore enemy of the Ummah, whom they believe is the Messiah and Prophet.

Gloating about persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan.
Last edited by Jolthig on Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Al Mumtahanah
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Postby Al Mumtahanah » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:28 pm

I said prosecute, not persecute, and it was related to a previous assetion that they were the enemy of Islam. There is no gloating here

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Al Mumtahanah
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Postby Al Mumtahanah » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:33 pm

I never once trolled anyone in any of these reports, I am being reported simply for disagreeing or quoting Ahadith. Trolling means to say something just to distress someone, nothing of this had anything to do with that and everyone here knows it.

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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:40 pm

Al Mumtahanah wrote:I never once trolled anyone in any of these reports, I am being reported simply for disagreeing or quoting Ahadith. Trolling means to say something just to distress someone, nothing of this had anything to do with that and everyone here knows it.

Al Mumtahanah wrote:
Samudera Darussalam wrote:The supporting part is quite subjective, I believe. I just looking it up on the internet, and the ayah on the People of Lot has many interpretations than simply condemnation on homosexuality, but also rapes and showing inhospitability towards one's guests.

Rapes definitely harm more than simply acts of LGBTQ+, so I guess you're safe. I'm leaning towards neutral on this matter, btw.

Some guy looking it up on the internet is now more knowledgeable than over a thousand years of Muslim scholarship?


The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) referenced the sin multiple times and said it is to be treated as adultery. All of the four rightly-guided caliphs understood this.


This demonstrates otherwise judging by the response of Samudera Darussalam
Last edited by Jolthig on Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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