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Where nations come together and discuss matters of varying degrees of importance. [In character]
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Kreise
Secretary
 
Posts: 36
Founded: Nov 06, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

The Empty Throne OOC Sign Up MT

Postby Kreise » Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:04 am

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=465923

The Grand Duchy of Kreise was long ruled in Personal Union with a neighbouring Kingdom. How after a bloody war annihilated the Royal family, the throne was empty and the link to the Kingdom severed. The viceregal Statthalter has led the country in place of a Grand Duke, but everyone knows this situation can not last forever, the Law requires a Grand Duke.

The Succession Law of Kreise is rooted in tradition and medieval German law. Thus the absolute right to succession was limited to the male members of the ruling house. The question if women could succeed is disputed, but more importantly, among those who believe a woman can succeed there is disagreement on which rules apply. This is important, because all descendants of the former dynasty descend from princesses married to foreign houses. Furthermore, old family trees and other documents must be reviewed.


All this takes time, but time is the one thing that Statthalter Frederick Peter von Goldenfeld doesn't have. He has delayed calling an election for years, but knows that he can not hold out any longer.

Political Background Info:

Kreise has a bicameral parliament called the Landtag. The 1. Chamber has 24 appointees who are all noble, the 2. Chamber has 203 members that are elected democratically. The Cabinet is appointed by the Grand Duke or the Statthalter, usually from the majority in the 2. Chamber. There haven't been elections for some time, eroding the legitimacy of the current government. The current cabinet is made up mostly of representatives from the Centre Union and the National-Liberals. Support for both parties have shrunk. The Opposition is made up of the Social Democrats and the Radical Party on the left. On the right there is the aristocratic Conservative party and the populist Freedom Party. The succession issue has split most of the parties. A left wing populist movement to establish a Republic has arisen led by Social Democrat, Peter Hauch. Most parties are still officially Monarchist, and support for various proposed solutions do not cross party lines.

There are roughly three approaches to the crisis. 1st is the Legitimist position, which states there is a legal heir somewhere that must be found. 2nd, is the Elective position, which states that there is no legal heir, so one must be chosen. 3rd is to abolish the monarchy.

The Legitimists and Electivists can be divided into subgroups, depending on how they interpret the laws. Currently, the electivist group is made up of those who interpret the laws the strictist. For example; they argue that all remaining descendants are unqualified either by unequal birth, sex or some other violation of the House Laws. It should be noted, that some Electivists argue that women can't inherit, but that they could be elected.

The legitimists are divided into much more different groups. Roughly they can be divided into hard and soft legitimists, the soft legitimist suggesting one or more barriers to inheritance can be waived. Finally, there are the different rules of succession, such as linear, gradual and linear gradual. Many of these positions intersect.

Here are some links to help understand German inheritance law :https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/Zoepfl.htm#Succession
https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/g_succ.htm
Last edited by Kreise on Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Haring Bayang Katagalugan
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 16, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Haring Bayang Katagalugan » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:36 am

I'm in! Where is the ic?
Last edited by Haring Bayang Katagalugan on Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kreise
Secretary
 
Posts: 36
Founded: Nov 06, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Kreise » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:24 am

Haring Bayang Katagalugan wrote:I'm in! Where is the ic?


It is great that you are interested, but I would like to have at least an idea of how you would like to be involved.

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Haring Bayang Katagalugan
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 16, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Haring Bayang Katagalugan » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:35 am

Seeing that your government is having a hard time to wrap their head around the concept of having a female ruler, HBK would send representatives to convince the government that a female ruler would be beneficial.
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HARING BAYANG KATAGALUGAN
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United Auroran Empire
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 113
Founded: Jun 06, 2019
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Auroran Empire » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:39 pm

I would like to be involved! I would like to think I would play the role of presenting a long-lost pretender to the throne. The UAE would present a man of your country's origin and produce document after document(which may or may not be forged) that he is the bastard child of the previous Duke. Political shenanigans insure. The man would be accompanied by a diplomat who would play the political ball game in tandem with the pretender( who may not actually be from the region at all).

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Camelone
Minister
 
Posts: 3389
Founded: Feb 20, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Camelone » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:05 pm

I could play one of two scenarios, or both, one being a low ranking Camelonean noble who is a part of a far removed cadet branch of the destroyed previous family or a prestigious member of a patrician family within the Christhold Commonwealth, a vassal republic of the High Kingdom and the only Protestant area in Camelone, who has a small amount of the previous ruling families blood in his veins through a marriage a century or so ago. I could do both as well.
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De Scali
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: May 29, 2019
Corporate Bordello

Postby De Scali » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:23 pm

I would be in filling the role of a member of my nation (which would be a neighbor)'s royal family with our two houses having close familial ties. Sent by the king to be his eye in the situation.

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Kuronami
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1712
Founded: Nov 04, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Kuronami » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:41 am

I'd be interested in showing support and helping in a smooth transition of powers in your government. This is actually almost similar to Kuronami's last succession where the Emperor left no heir so we'd be pretty helpful in this.

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Kreise
Secretary
 
Posts: 36
Founded: Nov 06, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Kreise » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:39 am

Haring Bayang Katagalugan wrote:Seeing that your government is having a hard time to wrap their head around the concept of having a female ruler, HBK would send representatives to convince the government that a female ruler would be beneficial.


It is not so simple, the question is not if a female head of state would be good, but if she would be legal. But even that wouldn't solve the dilemma, as there is uncertainty as to what succession laws apply to women.

United Auroran Empire wrote:I would like to be involved! I would like to think I would play the role of presenting a long-lost pretender to the throne. The UAE would present a man of your country's origin and produce document after document(which may or may not be forged) that he is the bastard child of the previous Duke. Political shenanigans insure. The man would be accompanied by a diplomat who would play the political ball game in tandem with the pretender( who may not actually be from the region at all).


This is a good start, but for two problems. Bastards aren't legal heirs and DNA testing. Rather I would suggest that instead he claims his parents were secretly married.

Camelone wrote:I could play one of two scenarios, or both, one being a low ranking Camelonean noble who is a part of a far removed cadet branch of the destroyed previous family or a prestigious member of a patrician family within the Christhold Commonwealth, a vassal republic of the High Kingdom and the only Protestant area in Camelone, who has a small amount of the previous ruling families blood in his veins through a marriage a century or so ago. I could do both as well.


Both work, although the character doesn't have to be Protestant.

De Scali wrote:I would be in filling the role of a member of my nation (which would be a neighbor)'s royal family with our two houses having close familial ties. Sent by the king to be his eye in the situation.


Sounds good.

Kuronami wrote:I'd be interested in showing support and helping in a smooth transition of powers in your government. This is actually almost similar to Kuronami's last succession where the Emperor left no heir so we'd be pretty helpful in this.


Also Good,


I will add more details either today or tomorrow.

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United Auroran Empire
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 113
Founded: Jun 06, 2019
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Auroran Empire » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:23 am

ill change it up for ya

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Legio IX Hispania
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Jun 08, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Legio IX Hispania » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:06 pm

I would like to join, perhaps by having one of my senior diplomats get in over his head by supporting one of the candidates, probably the United Auroran Empire's pretender.

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Kreise
Secretary
 
Posts: 36
Founded: Nov 06, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Kreise » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:53 am

I added the IC link,

Camerlone
UAE
Kuronami

You can all post

Legio IX Hispania wrote:I would like to join, perhaps by having one of my senior diplomats get in over his head by supporting one of the candidates, probably the United Auroran Empire's pretender.


Can you show that you can RP?

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New Edom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22777
Founded: Mar 14, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby New Edom » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:40 am

I'd like to propose that there is a member of a branch of the Edomite Royal Family (the House of Obed) descended from a Princess of Fuchsberg-Riesethal. I think that it would be interesting if this marriage took place a few generations ago, and that those descended from this princess would show an interest and put out feelers to see what happens. If you are interested, I would like to also know about economic prospects for closer ties.
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Legio IX Hispania
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Jun 08, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Legio IX Hispania » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:29 pm

This is my first RP on nationstates, but I play D&D weekly, so I do a lot of RP there.

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Tekistion
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 18
Founded: May 31, 2018
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Tekistion » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:45 pm

Having read the IC and noticing you said there was a growing amount of people protesting for the abolition of the monarchy, I was wondering if I could join and play the role of some sort of undercover Tekisti secret police agitator that would try and destroy the people's faith in the monarchy and spread instability?
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Haring Bayang Katagalugan
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Oct 16, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Haring Bayang Katagalugan » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:20 pm

Tekistion wrote:Having read the IC and noticing you said there was a growing amount of people protesting for the abolition of the monarchy, I was wondering if I could join and play the role of some sort of undercover Tekisti secret police agitator that would try and destroy the people's faith in the monarchy and spread instability?


I'm down to do the same thing if that's cool?
The Repúbliká
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HARING BAYANG KATAGALUGAN
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ChoclateTurtletopia
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 48
Founded: Jun 11, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby ChoclateTurtletopia » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:21 am

Could I attempt to get the people to change their ruling system to a republic (By supporting Peter Haunch), by sending in a Choclateturtletopian diplomat (Richard Hunt) to talk to viceregal Statthalter to get him to consider changing the government to a republic.

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Danceria
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9958
Founded: Aug 13, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Danceria » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:25 am

I shall tag this for further questions.
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Kreise
Secretary
 
Posts: 36
Founded: Nov 06, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Kreise » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:42 am

New Edom wrote:I'd like to propose that there is a member of a branch of the Edomite Royal Family (the House of Obed) descended from a Princess of Fuchsberg-Riesethal. I think that it would be interesting if this marriage took place a few generations ago, and that those descended from this princess would show an interest and put out feelers to see what happens. If you are interested, I would like to also know about economic prospects for closer ties.


Sounds like a good idea. As far as increased trade, that it certainly a possibility. I am not sure exactly what sort of information you are looking for, but I am open to trade deals that go as far as a customs union. Of course, Kreise is a lot smaller than New Edom, and so the potential for New Edom to import there is limited by population. You can post if you want

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Kreise
Secretary
 
Posts: 36
Founded: Nov 06, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Kreise » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:52 am

Haring Bayang Katagalugan wrote:
Tekistion wrote:Having read the IC and noticing you said there was a growing amount of people protesting for the abolition of the monarchy, I was wondering if I could join and play the role of some sort of undercover Tekisti secret police agitator that would try and destroy the people's faith in the monarchy and spread instability?


I'm down to do the same thing if that's cool?


I have to think about this. Both of you are too vague, and I am worried that you might take it too far, like inciting riots etc. I should also note, that it would not be a secret policeman, but a spy. Also, there is really limited options here. At the moment, there is no Monarch that could be made unpopular. Rather the only line of attack is to attack the monarchists and especially the caretaker government. I suppose as actual candidates show up, criticizing them would be a good plan. Mostly though it would be a game of propaganda and misinformation. Similar to Russian interference in Western elections. Also, you must be ready to not be very successful.

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Tekistion
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 18
Founded: May 31, 2018
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Tekistion » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:08 pm

Kreise wrote:
I have to think about this. Both of you are too vague, and I am worried that you might take it too far, like inciting riots etc. I should also note, that it would not be a secret policeman, but a spy. Also, there is really limited options here. At the moment, there is no Monarch that could be made unpopular. Rather the only line of attack is to attack the monarchists and especially the caretaker government. I suppose as actual candidates show up, criticizing them would be a good plan. Mostly though it would be a game of propaganda and misinformation. Similar to Russian interference in Western elections. Also, you must be ready to not be very successful.


The goal would be to use a Stalinist-NKVD style of agitation - which is why I used the term secret policeman, rather than spy. This would include, as you said, a lot of political intrigue. The objectives would be to slowly empower the opposition while trying to eliminate unfavorable candidates.

For example in this case, you say there is a range of republican parties that have not crossed the party line of opposing the regent on both the left and the right, from right-wing populists to social democrats and radicals. One of the goals of a Tekisti network would be to try and empower the left win opposition through funding or international support to legitimize them so they can denounce the regency and the likes, and maybe try and make them form a united front (Sort of like the NKVD's efforts in Republican Spain) between the radicals and social democrats. At the same time, they may try to 'remove' opposition leaders that do not agree with the goals of Tekistion, which could have the effects of either strengthening Tekistion's stake in the matter (propping up a loyal party leader for the SocDems, for example) or weakening the opposition (accidentally splintering the party further). There is also the possibility of disseminating more propaganda in the nation if the power struggle lasts too long...

Personally I don't think this would be too over-powered. I imagine that while there could be a conflict between the republicans and the monarchists, both groups are ultimately at odds with themselves. After all, we've established that there might be several pretenders to the throne, and that the republican parties are pretty split across the spectrum. Of course we cannot make a monarch that isn't in place unpopular, but the idea is to further diminish the people's trust in the system because of the caretaker government. This would ultimately be a game of political intrigue and assassinations rather than trying to take over the government completely, and if you think that the espionage is going a little bit overboard then I can just tone it back.
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Kreise
Secretary
 
Posts: 36
Founded: Nov 06, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Kreise » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:18 am

Tekistion wrote:
Kreise wrote:
I have to think about this. Both of you are too vague, and I am worried that you might take it too far, like inciting riots etc. I should also note, that it would not be a secret policeman, but a spy. Also, there is really limited options here. At the moment, there is no Monarch that could be made unpopular. Rather the only line of attack is to attack the monarchists and especially the caretaker government. I suppose as actual candidates show up, criticizing them would be a good plan. Mostly though it would be a game of propaganda and misinformation. Similar to Russian interference in Western elections. Also, you must be ready to not be very successful.


The goal would be to use a Stalinist-NKVD style of agitation - which is why I used the term secret policeman, rather than spy. This would include, as you said, a lot of political intrigue. The objectives would be to slowly empower the opposition while trying to eliminate unfavorable candidates.

For example in this case, you say there is a range of republican parties that have not crossed the party line of opposing the regent on both the left and the right, from right-wing populists to social democrats and radicals. One of the goals of a Tekisti network would be to try and empower the left win opposition through funding or international support to legitimize them so they can denounce the regency and the likes, and maybe try and make them form a united front (Sort of like the NKVD's efforts in Republican Spain) between the radicals and social democrats. At the same time, they may try to 'remove' opposition leaders that do not agree with the goals of Tekistion, which could have the effects of either strengthening Tekistion's stake in the matter (propping up a loyal party leader for the SocDems, for example) or weakening the opposition (accidentally splintering the party further). There is also the possibility of disseminating more propaganda in the nation if the power struggle lasts too long...

Personally I don't think this would be too over-powered. I imagine that while there could be a conflict between the republicans and the monarchists, both groups are ultimately at odds with themselves. After all, we've established that there might be several pretenders to the throne, and that the republican parties are pretty split across the spectrum. Of course we cannot make a monarch that isn't in place unpopular, but the idea is to further diminish the people's trust in the system because of the caretaker government. This would ultimately be a game of political intrigue and assassinations rather than trying to take over the government completely, and if you think that the espionage is going a little bit overboard then I can just tone it back.


Ok, it helps to have more information, but according to Wikipedia, the NKVD operated in Spain during the Civil War and actually had prisons, they also assassinated people. That wouldn't work in Kreise, because the government is currently centrist, and assassinating a monarchist would discredit the republican movement.

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Tekistion
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 18
Founded: May 31, 2018
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Tekistion » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:22 am

Kreise wrote:Ok, it helps to have more information, but according to Wikipedia, the NKVD operated in Spain during the Civil War and actually had prisons, they also assassinated people. That wouldn't work in Kreise, because the government is currently centrist, and assassinating a monarchist would discredit the republican movement.


Yes, as I said - any potential assassinations would be targeted at other low-level republicans who are problematic to Tekistion's interests. That's why I think it could be interesting to have intrigue that can both hurt and help the republican movement, by causing either more factionalism within a party or strengthening a certain candidate. It is much more dynamic to have intrigue that can have negative effects, especially if, as I presume, the republican movement would be destined to lose in this RP anyway.
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Danceria
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9958
Founded: Aug 13, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Danceria » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:26 am

Is it possible, for inheritance to occur matrilineally, that is to say, if a female member of your royal house would marry a male noble, have said male noble be "educated" or naturalized, or just kick the regency can down the road until the kid of aforementioned union is ready to take the reins?
One true Patron Saint of Sinners and Satire
It is my sole purpose in life to offend you and get you to think about your convictions due to this
“You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.” - Sir Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of Great Britain.
Obligatory Quotes below
“Love looks not with the eyes, but with the mind; and therefore is winged Cupid painted blind.” - William Shakespeare.

“Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.” - Mark Twain

“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.” - Thomas Jefferson

“The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress, and grows brave by reflection.” - Thomas Paine
-{(~CO-FOUNDER OF NS AXIS POWERS~)}-

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Kreise
Secretary
 
Posts: 36
Founded: Nov 06, 2014
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Kreise » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:34 am

Danceria wrote:Is it possible, for inheritance to occur matrilineally, that is to say, if a female member of your royal house would marry a male noble, have said male noble be "educated" or naturalized, or just kick the regency can down the road until the kid of aforementioned union is ready to take the reins?


Yes, but I want to make it clear, that a lot of people think a woman can inherit. This is a constitutional crisis, because there is no clear agreement. I will add more to the OP to better explain.


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