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[Discuss] Should Flags of terrorist organizations be banned?

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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[Discuss] Should Flags of terrorist organizations be banned?

Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Sun May 26, 2019 9:39 am

My thought must be banned because terror cannot be enacted what is your feedback ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
Last edited by Frisbeeteria on Sun May 26, 2019 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited title, removed poll
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Sun May 26, 2019 11:30 am

This is in response to multiple Getting Help reports about various flags that the OP thought ought to be illegal. Their English is not great, so please be clear in your response. Also, this is not something we enact via popular vote, so I've removed the poll.

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Sun May 26, 2019 12:18 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:This is in response to multiple Getting Help reports about various flags that the OP thought ought to be illegal. Their English is not great, so please be clear in your response. Also, this is not something we enact via popular vote, so I've removed the poll.
Just how many people thinks like me I wonder survey should be not removed freedom of discussion should be
But your rules bro just a suggestion :)
I don't understand my English badly excuse me
Last edited by Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum on Sun May 26, 2019 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Twin Moons
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Postby Twin Moons » Sun May 26, 2019 12:26 pm

No real-world flag should ever be banned, just as we don't ban people from creating evil nations.

To put it in perspective: one of the oldest issues in NS allows you to legalize Human sacrifices to Violet.
Last edited by Twin Moons on Sun May 26, 2019 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Highever
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Postby Highever » Sun May 26, 2019 12:37 pm

Where exactly do we draw the line on this? The swastika has validity due to the similar laws of several nations regarding its display. Do we ban the flags of Taiwan because the mainland considers them somewhat akin to an unrecognized terror group? Ban the flags of groups considered terrorists only by one or a few countries? Seems incredibly vague here.
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Jebslund
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Postby Jebslund » Sun May 26, 2019 3:38 pm

Highever wrote:Where exactly do we draw the line on this? The swastika has validity due to the similar laws of several nations regarding its display. Do we ban the flags of Taiwan because the mainland considers them somewhat akin to an unrecognized terror group? Ban the flags of groups considered terrorists only by one or a few countries? Seems incredibly vague here.

The swastika isn't even banned.
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Highever
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Postby Highever » Sun May 26, 2019 3:58 pm

Jebslund wrote:
Highever wrote:Where exactly do we draw the line on this? The swastika has validity due to the similar laws of several nations regarding its display. Do we ban the flags of Taiwan because the mainland considers them somewhat akin to an unrecognized terror group? Ban the flags of groups considered terrorists only by one or a few countries? Seems incredibly vague here.

The swastika isn't even banned.

Well as nation flags they are, but in RP context and such they're not.
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Luna Amore
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Postby Luna Amore » Sun May 26, 2019 3:59 pm

Highever wrote:
Jebslund wrote:The swastika isn't even banned.

Well as nation flags they are, but in RP context and such they're not.

They aren't banned from nation flags. It depends on context which is difficult but not impossible to do within the rules (Jainism flag on a Jainism themed nation for example). I had a swastika on my flag for a while to demonstrate the concept.
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Imbalistan
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Postby Imbalistan » Sun May 26, 2019 4:00 pm

Highever wrote:
Jebslund wrote:The swastika isn't even banned.

Well as nation flags they are, but in RP context and such they're not.

Nope, swastika also has religious meaning in Hinduism, and even Buddhism I believe. So, sometimes the flags are not tolerated, its a hot cake situation.
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Jebslund
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Postby Jebslund » Sun May 26, 2019 4:03 pm

Highever wrote:
Jebslund wrote:The swastika isn't even banned.

Well as nation flags they are, but in RP context and such they're not.

No, actually, they aren't.

To quote Violet:

An example is the use of a swastika as a national flag. The swastika isn't specifically banned on NationStates, because we don't ban particular references or arrangements of pixels. But since it is widely seen to symbolize specific real-life events--in particular, the Holocaust--it is usually unacceptable, as an endorsement of violence against real-life people. (This is regardless of how it's intended: We don't try to peer into minds to judge intent, only how it appears.)

Similarly, there is no ban on mentioning Nazis, or Hitler, or espousing ideological beliefs. However, a nation made up as a cookie-cutter Nazi Germany in its name, region, and custom fields (e.g. motto, currency), with no contrary context or redeeming content, is hard to interpret as anything other than an endorsement of that real-life nation's most well-known acts. So this is unacceptable, too. This is the kind of content that has been getting through lately, and shouldn't have.

I'm using Nazi examples because that's what we've seen recently, but it applies equally to any theme or organization that's primarily known for violence for against real-life people. And conversely, it's perfectly fine for a nation to reference Nazis, if that's done in a way that isn't likely to make reasonable people think it's endorsing the Holocaust.

A common question is why we don't ban nations that mimic the Soviet Union, or the USA, or some other real-life nation/entity with a violent history. Certainly, you can total up the body count of various real-world countries and arrive at awful totals: the Soviet Union under Stalin, for example. The question we ask is whether a mini-Soviet Union nation appears to celebrate violence against RL people. And the answer is probably no: assuming no specific references to the contrary, most people wouldn't make that association, because the Soviet Union is widely known for much more than butchery.
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Postby Krasny-Volny » Sun May 26, 2019 4:04 pm

Highever wrote:Where exactly do we draw the line on this? The swastika has validity due to the similar laws of several nations regarding its display.


This is not true. Several Eastern European nations have similar laws concerning the display of the hammer and sickle, including a few that apply the same laws to the swastika.

NationStates does not ban the hammer and sickle despite its display being illegal in several states just like the swastika.

The site has banned the swastika when used in the context of Nazism because it is almost universally associated with genocide and racism. Whereas the hammer and sickle has no such universal association, and means different things to different people despite being flown by more than a few rather nasty regimes itself.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sun May 26, 2019 4:05 pm

Here are some swastika flags other than mod puppets that we've allowed:

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=athara_magarat
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=hindu_mahasabha

It's permitted in appropriate contexts.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sun May 26, 2019 4:06 pm

If the flag is meant to be malicious to a group of people then I would see why it should be banned, but if not, I don't see why it should. I think the current rules are fine.

This proposal also begs the question on who's list of terrorist groups would this site use to decide which flags should be banned. Who is viewed as a terrorist and who isn't is unfortunately not always objective.
Last edited by LiberNovusAmericae on Sun May 26, 2019 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Highever
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Postby Highever » Sun May 26, 2019 4:08 pm

Huh I did not know either of those things.Interesting.
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Nilrahrarfan
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Postby Nilrahrarfan » Sun May 26, 2019 5:22 pm

We should just ban the ISIS flag and call it a day, since it has no meaning other than terrorism.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Mon May 27, 2019 1:02 am

I understand now there are cultural differences between us sample swastika symbol of racism but historical bi symbol but flags in the present
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon May 27, 2019 4:15 am

The moderators will never agree with me on this, but no flags or opinions should be banned. Every opinion is valid, as someone holds it, however disgusting it might be.

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Postby Caracasus » Mon May 27, 2019 4:30 am

The label 'terrorist' is far too vague to put anything like this into place. Whose defenition of terrorist we go with would be an impossible decision to make.

While there probably are problems with current flag policy, I struggle to see how a replacement would be better.
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Postby Phydios » Mon May 27, 2019 7:31 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:The moderators will never agree with me on this, but no flags or opinions should be banned. Every opinion is valid, as someone holds it, however disgusting it might be.

...Isn't this literally Moderation policy? The rules outright say that they don't ban specific flags or designs- only rule-breaking use of them. (There's already been examples of acceptable swastikas given in this thread.) And the rules do treat every opinion is valid, no matter how offensive some people might find it, as long as it is not stated in a rule-breaking way. A very recent ruling shows that Moderation doesn't ban opinions just because some people find them disgusting.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon May 27, 2019 8:06 am

Phydios wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:The moderators will never agree with me on this, but no flags or opinions should be banned. Every opinion is valid, as someone holds it, however disgusting it might be.

...Isn't this literally Moderation policy? The rules outright say that they don't ban specific flags or designs- only rule-breaking use of them. (There's already been examples of acceptable swastikas given in this thread.) And the rules do treat every opinion is valid, no matter how offensive some people might find it, as long as it is not stated in a rule-breaking way. A very recent ruling shows that Moderation doesn't ban opinions just because some people find them disgusting.

Some opinions are treated very differently too others.

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Jebslund
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Postby Jebslund » Mon May 27, 2019 8:42 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Phydios wrote:...Isn't this literally Moderation policy? The rules outright say that they don't ban specific flags or designs- only rule-breaking use of them. (There's already been examples of acceptable swastikas given in this thread.) And the rules do treat every opinion is valid, no matter how offensive some people might find it, as long as it is not stated in a rule-breaking way. A very recent ruling shows that Moderation doesn't ban opinions just because some people find them disgusting.

Some opinions are treated very differently too others.

Not really... Some people are simply incapable of expressing those opinions in rules-compliant ways, then blame Moderation BiasTM for their own shortcoming.
Jebslund is a nation of kerbals ruled by Emperor Jebediah Kerman. We reject tyranny, believing that rights should be protected, though we also believe said rights end where the rights of others begin.
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Singular sapient: Jebslunder
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Singular/Plural nonsapient: Kermanic
Note: When a verb can logically only be done by the sapient using/piloting/holding the object in question, then the appropriate demonym for the number of sapients is used.

Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are ECONOMIC SYSTEMS. Stop conflating them with political systems.

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Nilrahrarfan
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Postby Nilrahrarfan » Thu May 30, 2019 10:20 am

Jebslund wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Some opinions are treated very differently too others.

Not really... Some people are simply incapable of expressing those opinions in rules-compliant ways, then blame Moderation BiasTM for their own shortcoming.

For example, instead of saying that the jews should be killed in a genocide, you should say that Soros should be put out of power. It's only one person, so it's not racism. It's also less offensive. There are even many jews who hate Soros, so there's no trolling involved.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu May 30, 2019 10:46 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:The moderators will never agree with me on this, but no flags or opinions should be banned. Every opinion is valid, as someone holds it, however disgusting it might be.


Max and Google disagree with you even before us mods have our say.

We don't care about money in the sense of maximizing profits, but we do want the site to support itself, so that it will be here for years to come. If Google dumps us for being a "hate site" or some such, that doesn't work.
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Nilrahrarfan
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Postby Nilrahrarfan » Thu May 30, 2019 10:49 am

USS Monitor wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:The moderators will never agree with me on this, but no flags or opinions should be banned. Every opinion is valid, as someone holds it, however disgusting it might be.


Max and Google disagree with you even before us mods have our say.

We don't care about money in the sense of maximizing profits, but we do want the site to support itself, so that it will be here for years to come. If Google dumps us for being a "hate site" or some such, that doesn't work.

You should be more relaxed, with a few Nazi Symbols allowed. However, there should be a disclaimer stating how the website doesn't support Nazi ideologies. What could possibly go wrong?
Last edited by Nilrahrarfan on Thu May 30, 2019 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Thu May 30, 2019 11:02 am

Nilrahrarfan wrote:You should be more relaxed, with a few Nazi Symbols allowed. However, there should be a disclaimer stating how the website doesn't support Nazi ideologies. What could possibly go wrong?

You make it sound like this is a democracy, it's not. Max said no, he's the big boss. We don't have a say in what the rules are, we just play by them or go find another website :)
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