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Has anyone been critical of Rojava

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Communal concils
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Has anyone been critical of Rojava

Postby Communal concils » Sat May 18, 2019 8:43 am

Rojava is a unrecognized state that is located in northeastern Syria. The state was established in 2012 in the rojava revolution. The power vacuum of the civil war in Syria lead to the Kurdish militants to sieze a significant portion of the country. in 2014, the state gained western support. the evacuations of sinjar mountain, and the battle of Kobani gave them the image of being the brave souls of the middle east.

Progressives see them as hope for democracy, anarchist like that they declare themselves "not a state", and many insignificant leftist ideologues put lot's of faith into the revolution (even though, they serve as cannon fodder). along their crusade for liberation, the YPG and PKK have been accused of human right violations like Ethnic cleansing, child soldiers, displacement, and killings of dissidence. Rojava has also been accused of Kurdish chauvinism disguised as anarchism.

In my opinion, Rojava is a living contradiction. Claiming to be libertarian, but they rule over people that don't want to be ruled. Rojava is everything the social anarchist and other libertarian socialist have accused state socialist of doing, only that they are ineffective at making policies universally enforce. I find it funny that this "Anarchist" state depends on nations (like America ) for it's survival. In fact, it would be crushed by Assad without American aid. The YPG even allowed United States troops to be stationed there, which means that rojava is now a important part of Neo-Conservative imperialism.

What I want to know, is your reason for being against or for this state. It deserves the title state, The state is a "human community that (successfully) claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of violence within a given territory."


Sources: https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/06/18/syr ... n-enclaves

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... ar-crimes/

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 43648.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syri ... SKCN1S40RD


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Postby Petrolheadia » Sat May 18, 2019 12:32 pm

Communal concils wrote:I find it funny that this "Anarchist" state depends on nations (like America ) for it's survival. In fact, it would be crushed by Assad without American aid. The YPG even allowed United States troops to be stationed there, which means that rojava is now a important part of Neo-Conservative imperialism.

You like the Soviets, yeah? Well, lemme tell you about Lend-Lease.
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Postby Communal concils » Sat May 18, 2019 12:37 pm

Petrolheadia wrote:
Communal concils wrote:I find it funny that this "Anarchist" state depends on nations (like America ) for it's survival. In fact, it would be crushed by Assad without American aid. The YPG even allowed United States troops to be stationed there, which means that rojava is now a important part of Neo-Conservative imperialism.

You like the Soviets, yeah? Well, lemme tell you about Lend-Lease.



I am not oppose to the united states supporting nations. However, 2000's America is different from the united states in 1940's. For best and for worse, but today's America is more greedy and manipulative than ever.

Though, my argument is that it's a contradiction that a anti-statist organization has support from a state.

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Postby Allanea » Sat May 18, 2019 12:39 pm

In WW2, the Stalinist regime was pretty bad. It did use child soldiers, and engage in any number of nasty tactics against the Nazis, and against dissidents.

Yet most people in the world - even many people who criticize and condemn the Soviet regime otherwise, and Stalinism in particular - generally agree that the Soviets were heroic in their resistance to Nazism, partly because the Nazis very literally were planning to murder and enslave most of the ethnic groups living in the USSR, under General Plan Ost.

I don't disagree that I would not want to live under the Rojava.

But it's important to note in any criticism of them that they are faced with people who practice mass-violence, rape-as-weapons, etc. against them, and are defending themselves against oppression and all sorts of nasty crap not only from the Syrian government, but also from groups like ISIS and even some NATO countries.

It's difficult - indeed, I don't think any group in the 20th century has ever succeeded in this - to completely abide by the rules of war when you're fighting against such lopsided odds against people who hate your guts.

That said I imagine the Kurds will probably lose.
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Sat May 18, 2019 12:49 pm

Terrorists will find what they deserve. For peace for justice long live the secular republic of turkmeneli
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Postby Petrolheadia » Sat May 18, 2019 12:50 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Terrorists will find what they deserve. For peace for justice long live the secular republic of turkmeneli
(Image)

You might want to rethink the name to appear serious.

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Postby Farnhamia » Sat May 18, 2019 12:53 pm

Petrolheadia wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Terrorists will find what they deserve. For peace for justice long live the secular republic of turkmeneli
(Image)

You might want to rethink the name to appear serious.

In Polish, "menel" means "hobo".

And in English, a pole is an inanimate object. Knock it off.
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Postby Communal concils » Sat May 18, 2019 12:54 pm

Allanea wrote:In WW2, the Stalinist regime was pretty bad. It did use child soldiers, and engage in any number of nasty tactics against the Nazis, and against dissidents.

Yet most people in the world - even many people who criticize and condemn the Soviet regime otherwise, and Stalinism in particular - generally agree that the Soviets were heroic in their resistance to Nazism, partly because the Nazis very literally were planning to murder and enslave most of the ethnic groups living in the USSR, under General Plan Ost.

I don't disagree that I would not want to live under the Rojava.

But it's important to note in any criticism of them that they are faced with people who practice mass-violence, rape-as-weapons, etc. against them, and are defending themselves against oppression and all sorts of nasty crap not only from the Syrian government, but also from groups like ISIS and even some NATO countries.

It's difficult - indeed, I don't think any group in the 20th century has ever succeeded in this - to completely abide by the rules of war when you're fighting against such lopsided odds against people who hate your guts.

That said I imagine the Kurds will probably lose.



1. Well, my criticism has more to do with Theory vs practice. If they were truely anarchist or libertarian, then they must have spared people. They must no have demolished houses, and they must not have supported a cult of personality over Kurdish theorist names Abduallah Ocalan. You are correct about soviets using those things. However, I think that fighting dissidence and harsh punishment are sometimes justified.

2. I am not against their struggles of fighting ISIS. My criticism is about how they claim to be of a certain ideology, and how that is contradicting with practice. I hate how anarchist mindlessly praise them, I hate how they can't implement policies universally, and I don't like how they are used as a tool for NeoCons.

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Postby Communal concils » Sat May 18, 2019 12:57 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Terrorists will find what they deserve. For peace for justice long live the secular republic of turkmeneli
(Image)



I'm sure how the other cultures like Alwaites druze and Arabs will feel about this. They perhaps will suffer.

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Postby Allanea » Sat May 18, 2019 12:59 pm

Well I'm not an ancom.

In the real world, unfortunately, groups need to have some manner of allies if they're to succeed in war, and it's never clear who uses whom.

German intelligence was probably happy that Lenin came to power in the USSR. But in the end it worked out badly for Germany.

I think it's entirely reasonable that a state that's going to be fighting a war for its own existence will accept foreign aid even from countries whose ideology contradicts its own. (Did you know that some anticolonialist movements in Africa accepted aid... from Apartheid South Africa?)

But again I'm not an ancom.
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Postby Arayas » Sat May 18, 2019 1:01 pm

Just a faction in the war that western leftists have a boner for because they claim to support "causes" of the western left.
Supporting an ethno-nationalist/seperatist cause in syria while codemning the same in the west.
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Sat May 18, 2019 1:04 pm

Communal concils wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Terrorists will find what they deserve. For peace for justice long live the secular republic of turkmeneli
(Image)



I'm sure how the other cultures like Alwaites druze and Arabs will feel about this. They perhaps will suffer.

Arabs and Kurds will embrace a turkmeneli state should be established Do you know the ideology of Six Arrows ?
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Postby Petrolheadia » Sat May 18, 2019 1:06 pm

Communal concils wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:You like the Soviets, yeah? Well, lemme tell you about Lend-Lease.



I am not oppose to the united states supporting nations. However, 2000's America is different from the united states in 1940's. For best and for worse, but today's America is more greedy and manipulative than ever.

As in?
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Postby Communal concils » Sat May 18, 2019 1:07 pm

Arayas wrote:Just a faction in the war that western leftists have a boner for because they claim to support "causes" of the western left.
Supporting an ethno-nationalist/seperatist cause in syria while codemning the same in the west.



I know, it's weird. I even find it weirder that anarchist will comment themselves to a chauvinist movement.

Anarchist fall prey to states all the time. Call the military a Militia, call a Government a council, and Call conscription "Voluntary" Mobilization. They will most likely support Italian fascism as long as it has a libertarian face.

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Postby Epicurustan » Sat May 18, 2019 1:15 pm

Rojava has nice ideals, their constitution is good and so forth. Generally speaking I think they would be the best party to make peace in Syria.

That said - they are too idealistic, little pragmatic. They refuse to trade and industrialize due to their ecological ideology. Which is noble, but not good in the long term. Rojava needs to centralize its economical coordination and industrialize to become as self sufficient as possible.

Aside of that, Rojava doesn't call itself anarchistic. Yes, there are anarchist groups there, but the State exists.
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Postby Petrolheadia » Sat May 18, 2019 1:26 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Petrolheadia wrote:You might want to rethink the name to appear serious.

In Polish, "menel" means "hobo".

And in English, a pole is an inanimate object. Knock it off.

It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.
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Postby Communal concils » Sat May 18, 2019 1:27 pm

Epicurustan wrote:Rojava has nice ideals, their constitution is good and so forth. Generally speaking I think they would be the best party to make peace in Syria.

That said - they are too idealistic, little pragmatic. They refuse to trade and industrialize due to their ecological ideology. Which is noble, but not good in the long term. Rojava needs to centralize its economical coordination and industrialize to become as self sufficient as possible.

Aside of that, Rojava doesn't call itself anarchistic. Yes, there are anarchist groups there, but the State exists.



1.I agree with you. Most Leftist forget that the most successful societies are the ones with a command economy of mass production and industrialization.

2. I know that they are not anarchist, but their are officials of the YPG that say so. A significant number of left-Libertarians think it's anarchist.

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Postby Communal concils » Sat May 18, 2019 1:28 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Communal concils wrote:

I'm sure how the other cultures like Alwaites druze and Arabs will feel about this. They perhaps will suffer.

Arabs and Kurds will embrace a turkmeneli state should be established Do you know the ideology of Six Arrows ?




I am aware of the 6 arrows, it is the ideology of Ataturk.

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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat May 18, 2019 1:35 pm

Until this thread, I had no idea Rojava existed. Personally, then, I haven’t been critical of it.
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Postby Communal concils » Sat May 18, 2019 1:40 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Until this thread, I had no idea Rojava existed. Personally, then, I haven’t been critical of it.




Well, I just don't like how people treat it as a magical utopia.

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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat May 18, 2019 1:41 pm

Communal concils wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Until this thread, I had no idea Rojava existed. Personally, then, I haven’t been critical of it.




Well, I just don't like how people treat it as a magical utopia.


I can’t say anything about that, really, as I know nothing of Rojava. I’ll read a bit on the state and if warranted, I’ll comment but I have nothing right now. This is my first time hearing about such a place.
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Postby Pim Fortuyn » Sat May 18, 2019 1:44 pm

Roy Gutman has, for one.

The love for Rojava is a side effect of the decades-long cultivation of the PKK’s reputation as a bunch of left-wing freedom fighters. Still, they’re better than the alternative at this point which is not a good thing. The fact that they allow in the USA is one of their most redeeming points.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat May 18, 2019 1:50 pm

Hmm... for what I’m getting, the region claims to practice, among its citizens, gender equality (which is quite an opposite for the rest of Syria). They purport to be libertarian and want religious tolerance. Those seems like pros to me (particularly gender equality and religious tolerance), but what are the cons? There are cons in everything.
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Postby Badb Catha » Sat May 18, 2019 1:55 pm

Rojava is less a country and more of a transitionary period masquerading as a country; an interregnum with a constitution, if you will. The only thing that has kept it alive is the state of war uniting the myriads of conflicting ideologies, religions, and ethnicities within it against a common foe as well as foreign aid from sympathetic organizations and nations who either identify with the populist arguments utilized by Rojava to garner support and justify it's legitimacy or simply dislike the Ba'athist government in Syria (or it's allies) enough to warrant aiding them against it. The end result is the same: when peace is brought to the region, unless the country is destroyed, Rojava will either collapse into civil war or quickly turn into a repressive failed state that oppresses any citizen who is either not of the right cultural/religious/ethnic background or is simply ideologically unaligned with the government.

It is inevitable. Left-wing Revolutions commonly utilize the "people's struggle" as a call-to-arms but they always turn their backs on the people once in power. Rojava will be no different; the war is the only thing preventing it from happening right now. As soon as the inherent failures of Leftism begin to manifest, the people will revolt and they government will either fall to inaction/give in to demands and be toppled (unlikely) or it will begin to persecute it's detractors for increasingly trivial reasons until decades of instability leads to either foreign invasion or mass public arrest that will spiral into civil war. Either way, the government will lose. The multiculturalism and Leftism it proudly champions to drive forth it's struggle for self-determination will only end up causing it's demise in the end. It is inevitable.
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Postby Communal concils » Sat May 18, 2019 1:58 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Hmm... for what I’m getting, the region claims to practice, among its citizens, gender equality (which is quite an opposite for the rest of Syria). They purport to be libertarian and want religious tolerance. Those seems like pros to me (particularly gender equality and religious tolerance), but what are the cons? There are cons in everything.



Well, Religious tolerance and gender equality also are part of the Assad Regime. I will say that the country is libertarian in name, and It has been accused of attacking dissidence.

the con is that they are overdependent on the west, and that they have done harsh methods of luring ISIS out.

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