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When did the Roman Empire Fall? A fun thread.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What Year did the Empire fall?

476 AD
29
24%
Between 476 AD and the 800's AD
7
6%
1204 AD
7
6%
1453 AD
49
41%
1461 AD
9
8%
Other (state in thread)
19
16%
 
Total votes : 120

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United Muscovite Nations
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Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Thu May 16, 2019 10:32 am

Novus America wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:You have your history confused, Odoacer didn't seize or sack Rome, he, as an officer in the Roman Army, deposed Romulus Augustus and petitioned the Emperor Zeno for the recognition of his authority after his troops named him King of Italy.

Legal entities are social constructs, if the people in your territory believe you to be the sole legitimate authority, then that is the case.


Fair enough that I made a mistake there.
But I do agree 476 is a bad date to mark the end of the Roman Empire.

He did however seize power and only ask for recognition after, that does not happen in a properly functioning state.

However states are much MORE than just a social construct, obviously.
If not any self proclaimed micro nation or pretender would be a state.

People in both North and South Korea consider themselves Korean.
But Korea does not exist as one state.
There are still self proclaimed Yugoslavs, but Yugoslavia does not exist as a state at all.

It had happened many times in Roman history, even before you had more than one emperor, it wasn't that unusual in the Roman Empire to have transitions where the army deposes the Emperor. There were two times in Roman history (both of them before Diocletian created the Tetrarchy) where you had one year where it happened 4 or more times (Year of Four Emperors and Year of Five Emperors). It happened like 20 or 30 times in the Crisis of the Third Century.

If the people holding power considered themselves to be one state, it would become inevitable that they would eventually exist as one state, in the case of the Roman Empire, the people holding power considered themselves one state, which is why they cooperated so closely. If you wanted to become Emperor legally in East or West, you had to get the approval of the reigning Emperor from the other half of the Empire, and there were times where the Eastern Emperor deposed Western pretenders who failed to get this recognition.
Last edited by United Muscovite Nations on Thu May 16, 2019 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
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Ifreann
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Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Thu May 16, 2019 10:59 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The rape of the Sabine women was the end of Rome. Why couldn't you have kept Rome pure, Romulus? :(


Nothing pure about murdering your brother because he mocked your shitty fence.

If Remus was right we'd be talking about the Reman Empire.
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Novus America
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Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Thu May 16, 2019 11:26 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Fair enough that I made a mistake there.
But I do agree 476 is a bad date to mark the end of the Roman Empire.

He did however seize power and only ask for recognition after, that does not happen in a properly functioning state.

However states are much MORE than just a social construct, obviously.
If not any self proclaimed micro nation or pretender would be a state.

People in both North and South Korea consider themselves Korean.
But Korea does not exist as one state.
There are still self proclaimed Yugoslavs, but Yugoslavia does not exist as a state at all.

It had happened many times in Roman history, even before you had more than one emperor, it wasn't that unusual in the Roman Empire to have transitions where the army deposes the Emperor. There were two times in Roman history (both of them before Diocletian created the Tetrarchy) where you had one year where it happened 4 or more times (Year of Four Emperors and Year of Five Emperors). It happened like 20 or 30 times in the Crisis of the Third Century.

If the people holding power considered themselves to be one state, it would become inevitable that they would eventually exist as one state, in the case of the Roman Empire, the people holding power considered themselves one state, which is why they cooperated so closely. If you wanted to become Emperor legally in East or West, you had to get the approval of the reigning Emperor from the other half of the Empire, and there were times where the Eastern Emperor deposed Western pretenders who failed to get this recognition.


Again the “cooperation” was just as often outright warfare as actual cooperation.
Sure they sometimes worked together. Just as often did not.

The Venetians and ERE did the same deal of close cooperation at times to outright war at times.

Sure you could say the crisis of the 3rd century was actually the end, but it did reunite under one state several times. When it stopped reuniting it was dead.

And Odoacer did say his short lived state was a vassal if the ERE, but he controlled on a small part of the west and this did not last.

And both the rulers of both Koreas claim the right to rule Korea as one state. But obviously it is not and will not actually be so.
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Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

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Mostrov
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Founded: Aug 06, 2009
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Mostrov » Thu May 16, 2019 11:40 am

I think the idea to change what has been traditionally assigned as the fall, that being 476, misses the fact that it marked an important transition from Rome as a world-empire—one with a universal claim to sovereignty—to a more limited polity. If we are to mark the political continuity, why not then point to the end of the Venetian republic (or the Vatican), which was a continuous legal body from Roman times, both from the fall of the west to the fall of the east, and was indeed was diplomatically recognized as part of its body by the latter; or if the crown is the central point, then the fact it could be won by conquest as early as the principate (Maximinus Thrax, Claudius Gothicus, or Leo the Thracian as a later example) even by a barbarian, or for that matter conquest by a foreign religion (Elagabalus and Constantine), then it seems hard to deny that there was continuity with the Ottomans; who in their own way attempted to re-establish a world-empire (borrowing from Braudel) with the ambition of once more straddling the Mediterranean.

On the matter of law, the Greek's certainly deviated from the twelve tables (the tabula rasa of roman law) and integrated canon law with the state, perhaps with noting alongside the meeting of Leo I with Attila to show the shift of power within the government, Justinian's codex changed the nature of the law and the later ecologa were utterly foreign to classical law and the later Byzantine law was incorporated into the Islamic legal systems, both as inspiration and more directly under the Rum Millet: legally a continuation of the Roman 'nation'.

Thus, institutionally it changed so much from Augustus to 1453 it is very hard to call it the same thing, but 476 serves as a delineation that was notable enough for the western historical tradition to consider important, something which I think adds strength to the argument.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Posts: 18058
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri May 17, 2019 10:15 pm

Novus America wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:It had happened many times in Roman history, even before you had more than one emperor, it wasn't that unusual in the Roman Empire to have transitions where the army deposes the Emperor. There were two times in Roman history (both of them before Diocletian created the Tetrarchy) where you had one year where it happened 4 or more times (Year of Four Emperors and Year of Five Emperors). It happened like 20 or 30 times in the Crisis of the Third Century.

If the people holding power considered themselves to be one state, it would become inevitable that they would eventually exist as one state, in the case of the Roman Empire, the people holding power considered themselves one state, which is why they cooperated so closely. If you wanted to become Emperor legally in East or West, you had to get the approval of the reigning Emperor from the other half of the Empire, and there were times where the Eastern Emperor deposed Western pretenders who failed to get this recognition.


Again the “cooperation” was just as often outright warfare as actual cooperation.
Sure they sometimes worked together. Just as often did not.

The Venetians and ERE did the same deal of close cooperation at times to outright war at times.

Sure you could say the crisis of the 3rd century was actually the end, but it did reunite under one state several times. When it stopped reuniting it was dead.

And Odoacer did say his short lived state was a vassal if the ERE, but he controlled on a small part of the west and this did not last.

And both the rulers of both Koreas claim the right to rule Korea as one state. But obviously it is not and will not actually be so.

Name 1 time after the 395 split where the two fought a war against each other.

Neither of the Roman Emperors claimed to be sole Emperor of the empire, they claimed to each be emperors of a part of the Roman Empire, ruling jointly, and they acted like it too.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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Novus America
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Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat May 18, 2019 5:06 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Again the “cooperation” was just as often outright warfare as actual cooperation.
Sure they sometimes worked together. Just as often did not.

The Venetians and ERE did the same deal of close cooperation at times to outright war at times.

Sure you could say the crisis of the 3rd century was actually the end, but it did reunite under one state several times. When it stopped reuniting it was dead.

And Odoacer did say his short lived state was a vassal if the ERE, but he controlled on a small part of the west and this did not last.

And both the rulers of both Koreas claim the right to rule Korea as one state. But obviously it is not and will not actually be so.

Name 1 time after the 395 split where the two fought a war against each other.

Neither of the Roman Emperors claimed to be sole Emperor of the empire, they claimed to each be emperors of a part of the Roman Empire, ruling jointly, and they acted like it too.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
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Posts: 21160
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat May 18, 2019 5:16 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Again the “cooperation” was just as often outright warfare as actual cooperation.
Sure they sometimes worked together. Just as often did not.

The Venetians and ERE did the same deal of close cooperation at times to outright war at times.

Sure you could say the crisis of the 3rd century was actually the end, but it did reunite under one state several times. When it stopped reuniting it was dead.

And Odoacer did say his short lived state was a vassal if the ERE, but he controlled on a small part of the west and this did not last.

And both the rulers of both Koreas claim the right to rule Korea as one state. But obviously it is not and will not actually be so.

Name 1 time after the 395 split where the two fought a war against each other.

Neither of the Roman Emperors claimed to be sole Emperor of the empire, they claimed to each be emperors of a part of the Roman Empire, ruling jointly, and they acted like it too.


Which is an argument for it collapsing before 395.
The early 300s with the collapse of the tetrarchy might be a better date then.

Both Stilicho and Constantius III planned campaigns agains the ERE after 395.
Admittedly the increasing collapsing and dysfunctional western Roman Empire was not well suited to fight, as it was being overrun in barbarian invasions and the ERE provided little help.

So no they did not act much of the the time.
They more often acted as rulers of different states.

The empire had become fragrantly and it dod not properly function as a single entity.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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First American Empire
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Posts: 383
Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Libertarian Police State

Postby First American Empire » Sat May 18, 2019 10:20 am

Conserative Morality wrote:June 26th, 363.


^^^

If only Emperor Julian had lived.
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Telconi
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Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Sat May 18, 2019 10:33 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Again the “cooperation” was just as often outright warfare as actual cooperation.
Sure they sometimes worked together. Just as often did not.

The Venetians and ERE did the same deal of close cooperation at times to outright war at times.

Sure you could say the crisis of the 3rd century was actually the end, but it did reunite under one state several times. When it stopped reuniting it was dead.

And Odoacer did say his short lived state was a vassal if the ERE, but he controlled on a small part of the west and this did not last.

And both the rulers of both Koreas claim the right to rule Korea as one state. But obviously it is not and will not actually be so.

Name 1 time after the 395 split where the two fought a war against each other.

Neither of the Roman Emperors claimed to be sole Emperor of the empire, they claimed to each be emperors of a part of the Roman Empire, ruling jointly, and they acted like it too.


But naming aside, what made the two empires a single state? They didn't share laws, they didn't share government, they didn't share administration. They were functionally two very friendly states.
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Third Asopia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Third Asopia » Sat May 18, 2019 3:54 pm

Well since Liechtenstein still exists...
I would say it still exists. I don't know though.
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Conserative Morality
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Sat May 18, 2019 5:31 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:Name 1 time after the 395 split where the two fought a war against each other.

423.
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