NATION

PASSWORD

The Meaning Of Liberalism

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6602
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

The Meaning Of Liberalism

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed May 08, 2019 7:57 am

"Liberalism" and "liberal" is a word I often hear thrown around a lot with little care as to its meaning. These days, the word "liberal" at least on this forum and others like it is used slightly more prejoratively than endorsingly. But why is that? To understand why, we must first determine what liberalism is.

To some on the right, it seems liberalism is a synonym for left-wing, often used as a prejoritive with a meaning similar to "pinko" or "SJW." And yet, to some on the left, liberalism is a synonym for "capitalist," in fact, many leftists see liberalism as "the ideology of capitalism." Already, we have two seemingly contradictor definitions that vary depending on political affiliation.

Wikipedia (the beginning and not the ending of research, but still) says "Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty and equal rights." The problem is, this is a very broad definition which could easily be argued to apply to anarcho-communists as well as to contemporary conservatives. Wikipedia then goes on to say "liberals generally support limited government, individual rights, capitalism, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion. To me I think that provides something more concrete. From this it can be observed that liberalism generally favours policies based on individual rights & freedoms and eauality of opportunity, which I think is at the core of liberalism.

One problem though is the "individual rights & freedoms and equality of opportunity" definition arguably still leaves in libertarian socialists, who most people would not define as liberal. Maybe then; "individual rights & freedoms and equality of opportunity from a pro-private property perspective."

What say you NSG? What do you mean when you see the word liberal? Do you think I'm onto something here, or am I just way off and rambling? Furthermore, do you think liberalism's a good thing or not? I gotta admit, I think liberalism's pretty good relative to other political ideologies. I want to create some sort of poll, but I don't really know what the poll options would be... whoops.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
Social: -8
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Kavagrad
Diplomat
 
Posts: 922
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Wed May 08, 2019 8:01 am

Liberalism is anything that I don't like.
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

User avatar
Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21023
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Wed May 08, 2019 8:03 am

Kavagrad wrote:Liberalism is anything that I don't like.


Occasionally it's everything that I like, depending on my mood.
I like to imagine Sisyphus happy
I did some things

How not to debate: put snarky things implicitly calling out other posters in your sig

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 3589
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Wed May 08, 2019 8:52 am

Liberalism to me means personal freedom alongside free markets, though to be fair, that is only one type of liberalism.
Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism
Against: Crony Capitalism, Fascism, Nazism, Antifa, Ethnic Nationalism, alt-right, Communism, Socialism, Religion, Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism
Fascists on Gameside have declared me an Enemy of the State! lol.
Farnhamia wrote:It's not a community, it's a discussion thread. It says so in the title. The rules apply there just as they do everywhere else. Or are you suggesting we create a "no go" thread, where only Muslims can post? Maybe you can have your own Moderators, too, and throw non-Muslims out. Not going to happen. Post in English or, as I said when I posted the ruling, in some form tat we can translate via Google or another translation mechanism.

User avatar
A Cornstar
Attaché
 
Posts: 90
Founded: Jul 13, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby A Cornstar » Wed May 08, 2019 9:03 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Liberalism to me means personal freedom alongside free markets, though to be fair, that is only one type of liberalism.

Life, liberty, property
Kavagrad wrote:Liberalism is anything that I don't like.

Kind of agree. Liberalism in practice has been a Pandora's box of leftism.
Romano-Celtic Americans, Political Compass-Economic:2.5, Social:5.08
"I don't know everything, I just know better."
I use some NS stats, Uses the Royal We IC
"You see I recently came to realize that I too suffer from a disability. It's called G.W.S., Good Workers Syndrome. I get sick to my stomach unless every one around me is giving 110%. The symptoms include pride, responsibility , and a feverish enthusiasm. It used to be a common condition among Americans." -Hank Hill.

User avatar
Tavutelle and Firdland
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 4
Founded: Mar 07, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tavutelle and Firdland » Wed May 08, 2019 9:04 am

Biry

User avatar
Soviet Tankistan
Envoy
 
Posts: 348
Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Soviet Tankistan » Wed May 08, 2019 9:05 am

Exactly what it is.
☭Welcome to Soviet Tankistan!☭
In Soviet Tankistan, everyone is considered a worker if they contribute. Fascists and terrorists are not welcome.

Current focus: joining the international community and setting up diplomacy.
Neither a particularly corrupt nor a dictatorial government despite stats.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6602
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed May 08, 2019 9:07 am

A Cornstar wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Liberalism to me means personal freedom alongside free markets, though to be fair, that is only one type of liberalism.

Life, liberty, property
Kavagrad wrote:Liberalism is anything that I don't like.

Kind of agree. Liberalism in practice has been a Pandora's box of leftism.

I'm curious as to what you mean when you say liberalism's a pandora's box of leftism. And how does that relate to life, liberty & property? Are you saying that life, liberty & property is a pandora's box of leftism?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
Social: -8
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
A Cornstar
Attaché
 
Posts: 90
Founded: Jul 13, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby A Cornstar » Wed May 08, 2019 10:44 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
A Cornstar wrote:Life, liberty, property

Kind of agree. Liberalism in practice has been a Pandora's box of leftism.

I'm curious as to what you mean when you say liberalism's a pandora's box of leftism. And how does that relate to life, liberty & property? Are you saying that life, liberty & property is a pandora's box of leftism?

Separate points. Liberalism like Locke's merely piggy-backed on the American Revolution which was more about geographical and cultural separation, as well as Parliament failing to honor rights already given. The French Revolution began as an attempt at reform but was hijacked by the Jacobins. Jocobin Liberalism is less about rights as it is about deifying "reason" which is why Napoleon so easily co-opted it even as a dictator and war monger. Ideological "science" was a veneer adopted by Socialists who portrayed the middle class as a replacement nobility (on this I agree but believe the problem is they are a poor substitute) and were therefore continuing Liberalism as a movement. That veneer is used by modern leftists in economic and social politics. What we call conservative today is just a mix of Locke and Jacobin. Actual Conservatives are open to reform, but are against revolution and regicide.
Romano-Celtic Americans, Political Compass-Economic:2.5, Social:5.08
"I don't know everything, I just know better."
I use some NS stats, Uses the Royal We IC
"You see I recently came to realize that I too suffer from a disability. It's called G.W.S., Good Workers Syndrome. I get sick to my stomach unless every one around me is giving 110%. The symptoms include pride, responsibility , and a feverish enthusiasm. It used to be a common condition among Americans." -Hank Hill.

User avatar
Umpus
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 156
Founded: Feb 22, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Umpus » Wed May 08, 2019 10:51 am

The center-left.
Liriena wrote:No, you see, T_D seriously talking about killing Muslims, immigrants, "degenerates" and cops is free speech. But when a leftist subreddit jokes about wedgies and milkshakes, that's horrifying advocacy for violence and it cannot stand.
Pyta wrote:Nazis, generally, are really big fans of nonviolence and civility, provided the nonviolence and civility is being directed towards the nazis.
Gormwood wrote:It's adorable how criticising Trump has to be framed as mental illness by his supporters.
Chan Island wrote:"Based Groyper, watch out for that obvious joke- oh god, he has airpods on!"
Duvniask wrote:One apparently can't criticize the country one lives in, or, God forbid, want to better it.
A 16 civilization, according to this index.

User avatar
Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51989
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
New York Times Democracy

Postby Risottia » Wed May 08, 2019 10:52 am

A liberal is a right-of-centre to right-wing supporter of democracy and rule-of-law who, in the liberté-egalité-fraternité triad, prefers to sacrifice some equality and solidarity to emphasise freedom.
Last edited by Risottia on Wed May 08, 2019 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Statanist through and through.
Evilutionist Atheist Crusadjihadist. "Darwinu Akhbar! Dawkins vult!"
Founder of the NSG Peace Prize Committee.
I'm back.
SUMMER, BLOODY SUMMER!

User avatar
North German Realm
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1820
Founded: Jan 27, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby North German Realm » Wed May 08, 2019 11:03 am

Well, the definition is kinda shabby, especially in the modern age where the line between "Personal Freedom at the expense of the State" and "Personal Freedom of the individual with the state's help at the extent of the other Individuals" start to blur.
To me, however, a Liberal is a person supporting Parliamentarian Democracy, Rule of Law, and the increase of the number of Personal Freedoms a state will ensure to support. They're decidedly not anti-statist, but they have a healthy suspicion for the State. Economic Freedom is, to me, irrelevant to liberalism but they still don't support heavy-handed intervention or implementation of large-scale welfare, but I'm probably not in the majority in this particular view
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
------------------
North Germany
Norddeutschland

As The Great War wages, North Germans lose six men for every meter of land they reclaim from Allied Occupation!
Overview || Kaiser | Chancellor | Legislature | Military || News: 19 January, 1909

User avatar
Mushet
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17105
Founded: Apr 29, 2008
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Mushet » Wed May 08, 2019 12:10 pm

I'd say the mainstream of American political thought is all liberalism, with different people emphasizing different facets of it and with some religion thrown in the mix. The fact that it's become part of some stupid dichotomy supposedly representing the "left" of the American political spectrum is asinine and a product of these terms being bastardized for the sake of partisanship and marketing.
"what I believe is like a box, and we’re taking the energy of our thinking and putting into a box of beliefs, pretending that we’re thinking...I’ve gone through most of my life not believing anything. Either I know or I don’t know, or I think." - John Trudell

About 90 ex-nations for sale and current nations from common to epic, cheap prices

Puppet: E-City ranked #1 in the world for Highest Drug Use on 5/25/2015
Puppet Sacred Heart Church ranked #2 in the world for Nudest 2/25/2010
OP of a 5 page archived thread The Forum Seven Tit Museum
Previous Official King of Forum 7 (2010-2012/13), relinquished own title
First person to get AQ'd Quote was funnier in 2011, you had to have been there
Celebrating over a decade on Nationstates!

User avatar
Kavagrad
Diplomat
 
Posts: 922
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Wed May 08, 2019 12:12 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:Liberalism is anything that I don't like.


Occasionally it's everything that I like, depending on my mood.

Quiet, l i b e r a l

:P
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6602
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed May 08, 2019 8:33 pm

Tavutelle and Firdland wrote:Biry

What?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
Social: -8
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 3589
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Wed May 08, 2019 8:37 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Tavutelle and Firdland wrote:Biry

What?

I think that was just a shitpost. I don't think it means anything, but I could be wrong.
Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism
Against: Crony Capitalism, Fascism, Nazism, Antifa, Ethnic Nationalism, alt-right, Communism, Socialism, Religion, Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism
Fascists on Gameside have declared me an Enemy of the State! lol.
Farnhamia wrote:It's not a community, it's a discussion thread. It says so in the title. The rules apply there just as they do everywhere else. Or are you suggesting we create a "no go" thread, where only Muslims can post? Maybe you can have your own Moderators, too, and throw non-Muslims out. Not going to happen. Post in English or, as I said when I posted the ruling, in some form tat we can translate via Google or another translation mechanism.

User avatar
Nakena
Minister
 
Posts: 2738
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Wed May 08, 2019 8:37 pm

As any ideology it can take bad and destructive forms.

And thats exactly what happens those Days, by many of it's followers being promoting dysfunctional worldviews.
Your friendly neighbourhood barista and genderqueer degenerate bohemian
Female pronoun are preferred but not required
Third Positionist Gang

User avatar
Auzkhia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27228
Founded: Mar 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Auzkhia » Wed May 08, 2019 8:48 pm

Liberalism is the general support of capitalist market economies, representative democracies, and the emphasis of liberty over other principles of solidarity and equality, even though liberals value these principles too, especially equality before the law and unity of the community or the nation. It had its origins in the enlightenment in Europe, and the French Revolution and American War for Independence were some of the first applications of liberal political theory, replacing absolute monarchy, feudalism, and mercantilism.

It's much more reformist nowadays, and largely had applications through state reform rather than revolution. Mercantilism was a very restrictive form of capitalism. It is a centrist and right leaning ideology and the left reject some, but not all, of liberalism, but they heavily disagree on is capitalism. All left wing ideologies are anti-capitalist.

Nordic model social democracy is the like bridge between liberalism and socialism. But overall, there is a stark, and even exclusive, difference between liberalism and the left.
Hello I'm Auzi.(They/them|she/her)
I do not use NS page statistics.
Factbook (Under Construction) Embassies
Transfemme Androgyne demigirl Bisexual. Agnostic atheist, libertarian socialist/An-Com.
Sanders or Warren 2020

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 3589
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Wed May 08, 2019 8:50 pm

One type of liberalism I despise is the more statist form of "liberalism" that justifies the Reign of Terror in France.
Last edited by LiberNovusAmericae on Wed May 08, 2019 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Supports: Liberty, Capitalism, Libertarianism, Low Taxes, Free Speech, Civic Nationalism, Representative Republics, Secularism, Atheism
Against: Crony Capitalism, Fascism, Nazism, Antifa, Ethnic Nationalism, alt-right, Communism, Socialism, Religion, Totalitarianism, Authoritarianism
Fascists on Gameside have declared me an Enemy of the State! lol.
Farnhamia wrote:It's not a community, it's a discussion thread. It says so in the title. The rules apply there just as they do everywhere else. Or are you suggesting we create a "no go" thread, where only Muslims can post? Maybe you can have your own Moderators, too, and throw non-Muslims out. Not going to happen. Post in English or, as I said when I posted the ruling, in some form tat we can translate via Google or another translation mechanism.

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6602
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed May 08, 2019 8:54 pm

Nakena wrote:As any ideology it can take bad and destructive forms.

And thats exactly what happens those Days, by many of it's followers being promoting dysfunctional worldviews.

To which dysfunctional worldviews are you referring?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
Social: -8
NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

*I'm sort of questioning my gender, thinking I might be gender dysphoric, so if you want, I would prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Nakena
Minister
 
Posts: 2738
Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Wed May 08, 2019 9:00 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Nakena wrote:As any ideology it can take bad and destructive forms.

And thats exactly what happens those Days, by many of it's followers being promoting dysfunctional worldviews.

To which dysfunctional worldviews are you referring?


The current stem of popular mainstream media fuelled progressive-liberalism that has emerged in the past decade.
Last edited by Nakena on Wed May 08, 2019 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Your friendly neighbourhood barista and genderqueer degenerate bohemian
Female pronoun are preferred but not required
Third Positionist Gang

User avatar
Diarcesia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1372
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Diarcesia » Thu May 09, 2019 12:09 am

OP and I have pretty much the same understanding regarding liberalism.

Main difference based on recent observations: Liberals support democracy only when liberals get elected, which makes me think that as some move to the more socialist schools of thought, others will gravitate towards the classical interpretation of liberalism.

User avatar
Tetradimensional Overworld
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 140
Founded: Apr 29, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Tetradimensional Overworld » Thu May 09, 2019 12:12 am

Liberalism according to my father is capitalism. But he says that Japan is socialist, so I take that with a grain of salt.
Liberalism is mild libertarianism at least in my opinion.
IC name: Greater Aecinov Republic | Maxovikt Aečinov Valtarzurthr
IF YOU THINK WE'RE FOUR DIMENSIONAL, YOU ARE MISTAKEN. THIS IS JUST AN OLD NAME, A PLACEHOLDER NAME. I WILL /STILLME YA IF YOU MAKE CRAPPY ANSWERS SO DEAL WITH IT VADIM
TETRADIMENSIONAL OVERWORLD isn't my IC name. This nation is pure unadulterated nostalgia, deal with it. Did you know that I wasted 400 million plus seconds of my life and you wasted more? Well, if I could go back to any age, I'd go back to the time when I was 11. Great times indeed. I'm an anti-communist, but I do love me some Soviet music.
Late childhood is the best part of childhood -- change my mind. People below 10 are in blissful ignorance so I'd rather avoid that. Blissful ignorance is not true happiness

User avatar
Wawakanatote
Envoy
 
Posts: 267
Founded: Feb 19, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wawakanatote » Thu May 09, 2019 12:16 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:One type of liberalism I despise is the more statist form of "liberalism" that justifies the Reign of Terror in France.


You could have just said neoliberalism to shorten this whole thing.
OOC Factbook
Pro: Marxism-Leninism
Anti: Capitalism, Fascism
We do not exist under communism, but under the
primary stage of socialist development
Please adjust accordingly
Full Nation Name: Supranational Union of Socialist Republics
Government: Federal Intergovernmental P&E Union
Political Leaders: C.Song Liyuan, V.C.Lev Bronshtein
National Anthem: "Hymn of the Union"
"Seek Truth From Facts!"- Deng Xiaoping, Chairman of the Central Advisory Commission
"Peace, Equality, Unity" | "Мир, равенство, единство" | "和平,平等,团结"

For more information go to: Our National Factbook

Take NS stats with a grain of salt

User avatar
Tetradimensional Overworld
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 140
Founded: Apr 29, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Tetradimensional Overworld » Thu May 09, 2019 12:21 am

Wawakanatote wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:One type of liberalism I despise is the more statist form of "liberalism" that justifies the Reign of Terror in France.


You could have just said neoliberalism to shorten this whole thing.

Neoliberalism = uhhh...
it's just a piece of bullcrap.
IC name: Greater Aecinov Republic | Maxovikt Aečinov Valtarzurthr
IF YOU THINK WE'RE FOUR DIMENSIONAL, YOU ARE MISTAKEN. THIS IS JUST AN OLD NAME, A PLACEHOLDER NAME. I WILL /STILLME YA IF YOU MAKE CRAPPY ANSWERS SO DEAL WITH IT VADIM
TETRADIMENSIONAL OVERWORLD isn't my IC name. This nation is pure unadulterated nostalgia, deal with it. Did you know that I wasted 400 million plus seconds of my life and you wasted more? Well, if I could go back to any age, I'd go back to the time when I was 11. Great times indeed. I'm an anti-communist, but I do love me some Soviet music.
Late childhood is the best part of childhood -- change my mind. People below 10 are in blissful ignorance so I'd rather avoid that. Blissful ignorance is not true happiness

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Andsed, Bear Stearns, Cuirpthe, Draos, EastKekistan, Edgelords United, ElCKuT, Faal Lot Himdah, Fartsniffage, Gormwood, Highever, Korasta, Kubra, LiberNovusAmericae, Nakena, Napkizemlja, Necroghastia, Nova Cyberia, Novus America, Pacomia, Ravennog, Shrillland, Strahcoin, Telconi, Vassenor, Washington Resistance Army

Advertisement

Remove ads