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Why Does NS Condemn Fascist Nations/Regions?

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Athonuna
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Founded: Apr 13, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Athonuna » Wed May 15, 2019 7:54 pm

Kowani wrote:My knowledge of Gameplay and SC stuff is beyond nonexistent, but...fascists aren’t owed IC decency. OOC is a bit different, since ya don’t know if the player is a RL fascist or not.

So basically what you're saying here is some people deserve IC decency, but those you disagree with don't? That sounds kind of... fascist...
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed May 15, 2019 9:40 pm

Athonuna wrote:
Kowani wrote:My knowledge of Gameplay and SC stuff is beyond nonexistent, but...fascists aren’t owed IC decency. OOC is a bit different, since ya don’t know if the player is a RL fascist or not.

So basically what you're saying here is some people deserve IC decency, but those you disagree with don't? That sounds kind of... fascist...

IC decency is forfeited by choosing fascism.
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Postby RiderSyl » Thu May 16, 2019 1:43 am

Athonuna wrote:
Kowani wrote:My knowledge of Gameplay and SC stuff is beyond nonexistent, but...fascists aren’t owed IC decency. OOC is a bit different, since ya don’t know if the player is a RL fascist or not.

So basically what you're saying here is some people deserve IC decency, but those you disagree with don't? That sounds kind of... fascist...

Not those that are disagreed with. Those that are fascists.

Also, bringing the ol' tired "hating fascists makes YOU a fascist" meme to the table shows you're not here in good faith.
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Honeydewistania
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Thu May 16, 2019 4:08 am

North Saitama wrote:
Kowani wrote:My knowledge of Gameplay and SC stuff is beyond nonexistent, but...fascists aren’t owed IC decency. OOC is a bit different, since ya don’t know if the player is a RL fascist or not.


Therein lies the problem, though. In my opinion, EVERYONE, no matter how abhorrent their views are, is owed basic justice and fair treatment, and, if there are any crimes, punishment befitting the crime. Since perverting justice and applying biased standards just makes the SC no different from a lynch mob.

What if our 'abhorrent' views include not owing basic justice to these hateful people?
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Aclion
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Aclion » Thu May 16, 2019 4:38 am

Lord Dominator wrote:I see we've moved onto whataboutism

Okay. I'm getting pretty sick of this argument. Whataboutism is when someone called out for a wrong, defends those wrongs by bringing up the wrongs of their critics, IE the classic soviet response to American criticism "well you are lynching Negros". Simply calling out double standards is not whataboutism, and criticism of the double standard in NS are not limited to fascists, nazis or other toxic elements. When "whataboutism" is used to defend antifa from liberal critics this necessarily carries the accusation that anyone who criticizes antifa is comparable enough to fascists to be equivalent. It is a transparent smearing not just of the person criticizing the toxic left, but a smear of the act of criticizing toxicity itself; and a defense of the very behaviors that the antifa ostensibly opposes.
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North Saitama
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Postby North Saitama » Fri May 17, 2019 7:24 pm

Kowani wrote:
Athonuna wrote:So basically what you're saying here is some people deserve IC decency, but those you disagree with don't? That sounds kind of... fascist...

IC decency is forfeited by choosing fascism.


That just sounds lynch mob-y, honestly. "Since you have a heavily unpopular opinion, I declare you to be an outlaw."

Consider that even criminals are afforded justice, even if they are guilty as sin. What makes a horrible opinion so much worse than a horrible action, that they deserve to be basically regarded as an outlaw? Is merely advocating for genocide that much worse than actually killing people?
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Kingdom of Napels
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Postby Kingdom of Napels » Sat May 18, 2019 2:30 am

North Saitama wrote:
Kowani wrote:IC decency is forfeited by choosing fascism.


That just sounds lynch mob-y, honestly. "Since you have a heavily unpopular opinion, I declare you to be an outlaw."

"Since you are born this way, I declare you to be inferior." -the fascists you are literally defending. Seriously dude, the day you stop being a hypocrite will be a day I hope yet do not expect to witness.

Consider that even criminals are afforded justice, even if they are guilty as sin. What makes a horrible opinion so much worse than a horrible action, that they deserve to be basically regarded as an outlaw? Is merely advocating for genocide that much worse than actually killing people?

...No one said that advocating for murder is worse then killing. Both are bad.

Also, you have a peculiar view on genocide, it seems. "merely" advocating for genocide?
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LollerLand
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby LollerLand » Sat May 18, 2019 11:17 am

Is this even a question? Most of all the big regions who hold the most amount of votes in WA and the majority of the NS itself are against fascism at least in principle, and rightfully so. Hence isn't it obvious that people always votes for condemning fascists or tries to use the SC as a tool against fascists?

Fascism is a hateful ideology and if you are a fascist in real life then you are disgusting and should be rooted out of this community. If you are just playing as a fascist, you should be ready to face the anti fascist forces of the game.
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Arayas
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Founded: Oct 30, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Arayas » Sat May 18, 2019 11:23 am

Quaeg wrote:Fascism is different from alot of other ideologies because it's actively hostile. Aggressiveness and scapegoating is part of its basis. It's not like other political stances where it has an official definition, it's more of an umbrella term for oligarchies and authoritarianism. You don't have 'policies of fascism' you have 'early warning signs of fascism'. People condemn fascism because unlike other political positions (eg. conservative or liberal) which are fairly neutral, fascism is indicative of malevolent intent.


Nah that's just a bias your perpetuating
Last edited by Arayas on Sat May 18, 2019 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Arayas
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Postby Arayas » Sat May 18, 2019 11:35 am

Kingdom of Napels wrote:
North Saitama wrote:
That just sounds lynch mob-y, honestly. "Since you have a heavily unpopular opinion, I declare you to be an outlaw."

"Since you are born this way, I declare you to be inferior." -the fascists you are literally defending. Seriously dude, the day you stop being a hypocrite will be a day I hope yet do not expect to witness.

Consider that even criminals are afforded justice, even if they are guilty as sin. What makes a horrible opinion so much worse than a horrible action, that they deserve to be basically regarded as an outlaw? Is merely advocating for genocide that much worse than actually killing people?

...No one said that advocating for murder is worse then killing. Both are bad.

Also, you have a peculiar view on genocide, it seems. "merely" advocating for genocide?

Implying fascism equates to promoting genocide.
Nonsense reasons for a nonsense worldview, if you want to argue differences in worldview that one thing but it says a lot that the majority of people that claim fascism is some uniquely malevolent thing based on this fallacy shows how little they understand it which is unironically a form of bigotry and prejudice.

Inb4 "so much for the tolerant left" mamay

Neither the Doctrine of Fascism, Mein Kampf or any other Fascist treatise state a need for genocide. Liberal and Communist governments have killed more people than fascism yet they aren't considered genocidal ideologies.

This has everything to do with the status quo set after WW2 ,nothing about reality or objectivity.
Last edited by Arayas on Sat May 18, 2019 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Armaros
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Armaros » Sat May 18, 2019 11:49 am

Arayas wrote:<Fascist salt>

I too like to change the definition of my ideology as soon as it's convenient for me.
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Athonuna
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Founded: Apr 13, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Athonuna » Sat May 18, 2019 11:54 am

LollerLand wrote:Is this even a question? Most of all the big regions who hold the most amount of votes in WA and the majority of the NS itself are against fascism at least in principle, and rightfully so. Hence isn't it obvious that people always votes for condemning fascists or tries to use the SC as a tool against fascists?

Fascism is a hateful ideology and if you are a fascist in real life then you are disgusting and should be rooted out of this community. If you are just playing as a fascist, you should be ready to face the anti fascist forces of the game.

Why? Why should anyone coming here have to face an onslaught from the NS community just because of some silly IC ideology? You're promoting violence against people IRL, and yet you call yourself anti-fascist? Does anyone else here see the irony? Just because I hate socialists and communists doesn't mean that they should be rooted out from society. The only reason we would do that is if they actually hurt someone, not if they just said they WANTED to hurt someone.
I'M A BIOLOGICAL MALE THAT DOES NOT THINK THAT HE'S A WOMAN!
NOR AM I KAZAKH ARGENTINA (You know who you are)
ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION OF PEACE!
That is all.

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Arayas
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Arayas » Sat May 18, 2019 11:54 am

Armaros wrote:
Arayas wrote:<Fascist salt>

I too like to change the definition of my ideology as soon as it's convenient for me.

Well you're already doing it with ideologies you oppose so it should be an easy transition.
Last edited by Arayas on Sat May 18, 2019 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Eastern Tatarstan
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Eastern Tatarstan » Sat May 18, 2019 12:19 pm

Every ruling ideology or religion, from Christianity to Communism and Fascism, condemns or fights those who oppose it. The harshness of the condemnation depends on how much does the particular ideology care about people. God cares about everybody, so he condemns actions against him. Totalitarian rulers care only about themselves, so they eradicate people who act against them. And somewhere in between lies the slightly more leftist SC which not only condemns actions, it also condemns individuals, whole regions and it slowly fights it's opponents by putting obstacles in front of them. The condemnation itself isn't bad, it's something normal and expected. The fact that it's a bit slanted towards one particular side of the political compass is what bothers me.

PS: My region used to have a newspaper. In some newspaper you have jokes on the last page, in this one was always a different meme suggested by the readers. Once a WWII meme appeared (with Hitler's face uncensored) and that was the end of the newspaper. I also got a TG from an unnamed nation two days later, advising me to withdraw embassies from a bunch of conservative and religious regions.
I know it is a useful advise how to avoid condemnation but something must be wrong if such advises are useful.
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Armaros
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Armaros » Sat May 18, 2019 12:24 pm

Arayas wrote:
Armaros wrote:I too like to change the definition of my ideology as soon as it's convenient for me.

Well you're already doing it with ideologies you oppose so it should be an easy transition.

Wait.. what? I oppose ideologies because of their fundamental ideas. If I were to change their definition, Id have no reason to oppose the ideology.
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Arayas
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Arayas » Sat May 18, 2019 12:27 pm

Armaros wrote:
Arayas wrote:Well you're already doing it with ideologies you oppose so it should be an easy transition.

Wait.. what? I oppose ideologies because of their fundamental ideas. If I were to change their definition, Id have no reason to oppose the ideology.

Which is what?
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Lord Dominator
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Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sat May 18, 2019 1:24 pm

Aclion wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:I see we've moved onto whataboutism

Okay. I'm getting pretty sick of this argument. Whataboutism is when someone called out for a wrong, defends those wrongs by bringing up the wrongs of their critics, IE the classic soviet response to American criticism "well you are lynching Negros". Simply calling out double standards is not whataboutism, and criticism of the double standard in NS are not limited to fascists, nazis or other toxic elements. When "whataboutism" is used to defend antifa from liberal critics this necessarily carries the accusation that anyone who criticizes antifa is comparable enough to fascists to be equivalent. It is a transparent smearing not just of the person criticizing the toxic left, but a smear of the act of criticizing toxicity itself; and a defense of the very behaviors that the antifa ostensibly opposes.

I fail to see how people (including myself) attacking fascists for the irl crimes of their ideology being responded to by 'what about the commies!?' (which I've fairly consistently said I'd be willing to reasonably prosecute, if a appropriate communist region is given) does not qualify as a 'whataboutism.' The fact that people are using it against communists despite their relative creation/naming of it is irrelevant.
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Aclion
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Aclion » Sat May 18, 2019 2:37 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Aclion wrote:Okay. I'm getting pretty sick of this argument. Whataboutism is when someone called out for a wrong, defends those wrongs by bringing up the wrongs of their critics, IE the classic soviet response to American criticism "well you are lynching Negros". Simply calling out double standards is not whataboutism, and criticism of the double standard in NS are not limited to fascists, nazis or other toxic elements. When "whataboutism" is used to defend antifa from liberal critics this necessarily carries the accusation that anyone who criticizes antifa is comparable enough to fascists to be equivalent. It is a transparent smearing not just of the person criticizing the toxic left, but a smear of the act of criticizing toxicity itself; and a defense of the very behaviors that the antifa ostensibly opposes.

I fail to see how people (including myself) attacking fascists for the irl crimes of their ideology being responded to by 'what about the commies!?' (which I've fairly consistently said I'd be willing to reasonably prosecute, if a appropriate communist region is given) does not qualify as a 'whataboutism.' The fact that people are using it against communists despite their relative creation/naming of it is irrelevant.

Because people saying "what about commies" that do not have an ideology that justifies the sort of wrongs that Nazis and Communists have committed still get accused of whataboutism when calling out the toxicity of NS left and he double standard being applied.
Last edited by Aclion on Sat May 18, 2019 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sat May 18, 2019 8:21 pm

Which is probably fair, but having 'whataboutthecommies' is kinda beside the point when discussing why Gameplay-at-large (not just NS Antifa) condemns and attacks fascist regions.
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LollerLand
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby LollerLand » Sun May 19, 2019 12:35 am

Athonuna wrote:
LollerLand wrote:Is this even a question? Most of all the big regions who hold the most amount of votes in WA and the majority of the NS itself are against fascism at least in principle, and rightfully so. Hence isn't it obvious that people always votes for condemning fascists or tries to use the SC as a tool against fascists?

Fascism is a hateful ideology and if you are a fascist in real life then you are disgusting and should be rooted out of this community. If you are just playing as a fascist, you should be ready to face the anti fascist forces of the game.

Why? Why should anyone coming here have to face an onslaught from the NS community just because of some silly IC ideology? You're promoting violence against people IRL, and yet you call yourself anti-fascist? Does anyone else here see the irony? Just because I hate socialists and communists doesn't mean that they should be rooted out from society. The only reason we would do that is if they actually hurt someone, not if they just said they WANTED to hurt someone.

I am not going to debate with you on fascism and why I think it's bad here because Security Council is not the place for such OOC debates. Anyway, if you signed up in a political simulation game like NS as a fascist, you should have foreseen that you will have to face resistance from the anti fascist forces in the game. There is no use in whining just because your side is being overpowered and those opposing you are able to use game mechanics like the SC effectively against you.
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Cossack Khanate
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Postby Cossack Khanate » Sun May 19, 2019 9:07 am

So I am going to defend the fascists even though personally I am more monarchist

Fascism does not equal genocide, first thing. Perhaps it has some bad aspects but what ideology doesn’t. That’s rhetorical, I don’t want to start a debate.

My view is, NS shouldn’t have a game mechanic being used to target a belief. Big regions gang up against fascists? Sure , that’s their choice. But making a region have a disadvantage through game mechanics is unfair and spoils the spirit of NS.

And if you are going to persecute beliefs, Communism killed 100 million innocents. Not to mention commie insurgents. That’s way more than fascists. So no ideology doesn’t have blood on its hands, and some people in the community are just making it worse through persecution.
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Athonuna
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Founded: Apr 13, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Athonuna » Sun May 19, 2019 10:05 am

LollerLand wrote:
Athonuna wrote:Why? Why should anyone coming here have to face an onslaught from the NS community just because of some silly IC ideology? You're promoting violence against people IRL, and yet you call yourself anti-fascist? Does anyone else here see the irony? Just because I hate socialists and communists doesn't mean that they should be rooted out from society. The only reason we would do that is if they actually hurt someone, not if they just said they WANTED to hurt someone.

I am not going to debate with you on fascism and why I think it's bad here because Security Council is not the place for such OOC debates. Anyway, if you signed up in a political simulation game like NS as a fascist, you should have foreseen that you will have to face resistance from the anti fascist forces in the game. There is no use in whining just because your side is being overpowered and those opposing you are able to use game mechanics like the SC effectively against you.

But you just espoused my original point: It's a simulation. It's not real. How many of the fascist nations and regions are actually fascist? I'm willing to bet it's a pretty small percentage. So while I acknowledge your point, many other ideologies (*cough* COMMUNISM *cough*) are getting by without being prosecuted nearly as much.

And a lot more of those communist nations actually support socialism and communism, much more than on the fascist side of NS. Like Cossack Khanate said perfectly, no ideology doesn't have blood on its hands, and while the horrors of fascism are much more public and fantastical, communism's horrors killed many more people in World War II and after.

I still firmly believe people, whether they believe or not, should not be targeted by the system itself (Not just a region, NS itself) because of what ideology their nation ascribes to. If it's acceptable to go after fascists because you're whining that they're bad people and killed a bunch of innocents, what's to stop every ideology from going after their enemies in the same way?

Communism killed a bunch of innocents, heck, so did Democracy, and that's unavoidable. I could whine that capitalism is horrible and oppresses people (Which many people already do on this website), but that wouldn't give me an excuse to target and label every single capitalist region, giving them IC disadvantages because of a stupid simulation. Truly idiotic.
I'M A BIOLOGICAL MALE THAT DOES NOT THINK THAT HE'S A WOMAN!
NOR AM I KAZAKH ARGENTINA (You know who you are)
ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION OF PEACE!
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun May 19, 2019 10:20 am

Because it's not hard to dislike ideologies that are and are similar to fascism.

(Namely, ones that state "Group X is the reason for all our problems and must be eliminated")
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Sun May 19, 2019 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Athonuna
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Postby Athonuna » Sun May 19, 2019 10:23 am

Stellar Colonies wrote:Because it's not hard to dislike ideologies that are and are similar to fascism.

It's also not hard to dislike ideologies contrary to your own. That's part of the reason why fascism was popular in 1940s Europe and around the world later on. That doesn't provide accurate reasoning for why NS should be attacking fascist nations like they do and not any other ideologies.
I'M A BIOLOGICAL MALE THAT DOES NOT THINK THAT HE'S A WOMAN!
NOR AM I KAZAKH ARGENTINA (You know who you are)
ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION OF PEACE!
That is all.

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LollerLand
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby LollerLand » Sun May 19, 2019 10:25 am

Cossack Khanate wrote:So I am going to defend the fascists even though personally I am more monarchist

Fascism does not equal genocide, first thing. Perhaps it has some bad aspects but what ideology doesn’t. That’s rhetorical, I don’t want to start a debate.

My view is, NS shouldn’t have a game mechanic being used to target a belief. Big regions gang up against fascists? Sure , that’s their choice. But making a region have a disadvantage through game mechanics is unfair and spoils the spirit of NS.

And if you are going to persecute beliefs, Communism killed 100 million innocents. Not to mention commie insurgents. That’s way more than fascists. So no ideology doesn’t have blood on its hands, and some people in the community are just making it worse through persecution.

Which game mechanic exactly are you referring here? There is no rule which says fascists can't use SC. Unless you do or say or something which violates mod rules, you can follow any ideology. But this also means other players can take IC actions against you if they are playing as anti fascists. If fascists are unable to prevent the growth of anti fascists in the game and are incapable of garnering support in SC, that's just because they are incapable of forming good strategies and because majority of the people are against their ideology.

Again, I am not going to do a debate on ideologies here.
Athonuna wrote:
LollerLand wrote:I am not going to debate with you on fascism and why I think it's bad here because Security Council is not the place for such OOC debates. Anyway, if you signed up in a political simulation game like NS as a fascist, you should have foreseen that you will have to face resistance from the anti fascist forces in the game. There is no use in whining just because your side is being overpowered and those opposing you are able to use game mechanics like the SC effectively against you.

But you just espoused my original point: It's a simulation. It's not real. How many of the fascist nations and regions are actually fascist? I'm willing to bet it's a pretty small percentage. So while I acknowledge your point, many other ideologies (*cough* COMMUNISM *cough*) are getting by without being prosecuted nearly as much.

And a lot more of those communist nations actually support socialism and communism, much more than on the fascist side of NS. Like Cossack Khanate said perfectly, no ideology doesn't have blood on its hands, and while the horrors of fascism are much more public and fantastical, communism's horrors killed many more people in World War II and after.

I still firmly believe people, whether they believe or not, should not be targeted by the system itself (Not just a region, NS itself) because of what ideology their nation ascribes to. If it's acceptable to go after fascists because you're whining that they're bad people and killed a bunch of innocents, what's to stop every ideology from going after their enemies in the same way?

Communism killed a bunch of innocents, heck, so did Democracy, and that's unavoidable. I could whine that capitalism is horrible and oppresses people (Which many people already do on this website), but that wouldn't give me an excuse to target and label every single capitalist region, giving them IC disadvantages because of a stupid simulation. Truly idiotic.
If you are against communism and believes that there's isn't enough anti communist forces in this game, then go ahead and start a coalition against communism or something. But don't blame the game mechanisms if your coalition fails because of your ineffectiveness or failure to gather supporters. The system is targeting no one, it's just that more people in NS believes that fascism is despicable and are legitimately using game mechanics to further their agenda of anti fascism. If you have a problem with that, come up with strategies to counter it. There is no use in whining here.
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