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Why Does NS Condemn Fascist Nations/Regions?

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MeinKrafft
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Founded: May 03, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby MeinKrafft » Thu May 09, 2019 4:38 am

Quaeg wrote:Fascism is different from alot of other ideologies because it's actively hostile. Aggressiveness and scapegoating is part of its basis. It's not like other political stances where it has an official definition, it's more of an umbrella term for oligarchies and authoritarianism. You don't have 'policies of fascism' you have 'early warning signs of fascism'. People condemn fascism because unlike other political positions (eg. conservative or liberal) which are fairly neutral, fascism is indicative of malevolent intent.


That's blatantly false though, fascism has a rich history of political, economic, and cultural thought. Fascism has a defined political and economic structure, which Mussolini described as "corporatism" in which the state and the corporations work together for the betterment of the nation. Granted, those benefits are bestowed upon the nation and are exclusive to it, but it hardly requires violence against others.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri May 10, 2019 3:46 pm

And yet, it seems to inevitably involve such, or be a mere code-word for nazis trying to sound less bad.
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North Saitama
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Founded: Jul 04, 2017
Anarchy

Postby North Saitama » Fri May 10, 2019 10:06 pm

Qwabour Harbour wrote:
North Saitama wrote:While we're on the subject, I do believe that "liberating" Fascist regions is unethical, as is raiding them unprovoked. IC, it amounts to a war of aggression, which is, in fact, a war crime.

Which is also why I am so opposed to how organisations like the MT Army are actually commended for what are IC war crimes, Fascist or not. I do not believe that war crimes should be rewarded and encouraged, no matter who the target is.

Are you saying that fascism should be allowed to run loose? The MT Army has spent the last 16-17 years fighting fascism. They deserve the commendation. Or are you salty your repeal didn't get momentum and you're sitting on your fascist sympathising bum whining about it?


Do you want to build a strawman? Come on, let's go accuse. Never reason anymore, come out the door, points to pick and choose!

But, seriously.

For one, another problem I have is that anybody who even dares object to self-proclaimed "fascist hunters" and their many problems (such as the aforementioned IC war crimes, in addition to interventionism and the attitude of judge, jury, and executioner) is apparently branded a "face-ist", "synthesizer", or "notzee", regardless of reason. At that point, you are doing nothing but vilifying, abandoning any guise of civility or reason.

For two, just because they hunt face-ists doesn't mean that they are good, and not every conflict is black and white (both sides can be evil, in fact). The attitude of "judge, jury, and executioner" in the name of "fighting evul face-ists" basically allows them license to attack as many regions as they wish, regardless of whether they are even legit fascists, or have even done anything besides merely having ideas that most find abhorrent.
.

Furthermore, I must question who are the real villains? Self-proclaimed "face-ist hunters", for wanting to rid the world of fascism, seem eerily fascist-like in their authoritarian demeanour, and attitude of "by any means necessary". I am reminded of a quote by Friedrich Nietzsche; "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

At this point, I am left to wonder if fascist-hunters even care about eliminating the evils of fascism, or are only hunting fascists out of ideology and their own desire for their own brand of authoritarianism?
Last edited by North Saitama on Fri May 10, 2019 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Armaros
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Postby Armaros » Sat May 11, 2019 12:03 am

Saitama, don't you ever get tired of your own, old, boring nonsense? Because I sure do. If you have nothing sensical to say, you might as well say nothing. The "IC warcrimes" rethoric is pure bullshit. I regard fighting fascism as an OOC matter anyway, but even if one would look at it ICly it's still utter nonsense: raiders attack communities unprovoked, so your "warcrimes" nonsense arguement might be applicable there. Fascists, with their ideology of hate, are not an innocent target.

As to why the SC is against fascism: I obviously don't speak for the SC (lol, like anyone does), but for me, fighting an ideology as hateful and vile as fascism is something all should agree on. The SC generally doesn't like ideologies preaching hate either (kinda goes against the values of the SC if you'd look at it from an IC perspective) so that definitely helps in fighting fascism.
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Honeydewistania
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Postby Honeydewistania » Sat May 11, 2019 6:40 am

North Saitama wrote:
Qwabour Harbour wrote:Are you saying that fascism should be allowed to run loose? The MT Army has spent the last 16-17 years fighting fascism. They deserve the commendation. Or are you salty your repeal didn't get momentum and you're sitting on your fascist sympathising bum whining about it?


Do you want to build a strawman? Come on, let's go accuse. Never reason anymore, come out the door, points to pick and choose!

But, seriously.

For one, another problem I have is that anybody who even dares object to self-proclaimed "fascist hunters" and their many problems (such as the aforementioned IC war crimes, in addition to interventionism and the attitude of judge, jury, and executioner) is apparently branded a "face-ist", "synthesizer", or "notzee", regardless of reason. At that point, you are doing nothing but vilifying, abandoning any guise of civility or reason.

For two, just because they hunt face-ists doesn't mean that they are good, and not every conflict is black and white (both sides can be evil, in fact). The attitude of "judge, jury, and executioner" in the name of "fighting evul face-ists" basically allows them license to attack as many regions as they wish, regardless of whether they are even legit fascists, or have even done anything besides merely having ideas that most find abhorrent.
.

Furthermore, I must question who are the real villains? Self-proclaimed "face-ist hunters", for wanting to rid the world of fascism, seem eerily fascist-like in their authoritarian demeanour, and attitude of "by any means necessary". I am reminded of a quote by Friedrich Nietzsche; "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

At this point, I am left to wonder if fascist-hunters even care about eliminating the evils of fascism, or are only hunting fascists out of ideology and their own desire for their own brand of authoritarianism?


As jo said, aren’t you tired of your broken recorder crap? Antifa has target policies, we don’t just go out and declare regions fascist without reason. Also Antifa has no ideology except for anti-fascism. Just because you’re okay with fascists doesn’t mean everyone is.
Last edited by Honeydewistania on Sat May 11, 2019 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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North Saitama
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Anarchy

Postby North Saitama » Sun May 12, 2019 6:34 pm

Armaros wrote:Saitama, don't you ever get tired of your own, old, boring nonsense? Because I sure do. If you have nothing sensical to say, you might as well say nothing. The "IC warcrimes" rethoric is pure bullshit. I regard fighting fascism as an OOC matter anyway, but even if one would look at it ICly it's still utter nonsense: raiders attack communities unprovoked, so your "warcrimes" nonsense arguement might be applicable there. Fascists, with their ideology of hate, are not an innocent target.

As to why the SC is against fascism: I obviously don't speak for the SC (lol, like anyone does), but for me, fighting an ideology as hateful and vile as fascism is something all should agree on. The SC generally doesn't like ideologies preaching hate either (kinda goes against the values of the SC if you'd look at it from an IC perspective) so that definitely helps in fighting fascism.


All you are doing, though, is feeding me the same "butt duh face-ists, dough" argument. Don't complain about my alleged "nonsense", then feed me the same nonsense I have criticised over and over.

You have perfectly demonstrated my exact problem, by not even answering my base criticisms; I am almost led to believe that you don't get it, which is why I repeat myself. I have clearly indicated on many occasions that I don't give a damn about what ideology they are (to the point of opposing the offensive liberation of a communist region, for the same reasons), yet every single counter-argument I receive is "butt duh face-ists dough". By continually feeding me this argument, you are basically preaching to the atheist.

For one, NationStates is a game, first and foremost. In-game mechanics like the World Assembly should be IC first and foremost. If fascists are that much of a problem, take OOC routes like talking to admin.

I am also of the belief that actions speak louder than words. That is why I am more concerned and critical of so-called "face-ist hunters" than some backwater fascist region that nobody would otherwise care about. I don't care how horrible someone's opinion is; if you actually DO something bad, you will always be worse.


Honeydewistania wrote:As jo said, aren’t you tired of your broken recorder crap? Antifa has target policies, we don’t just go out and declare regions fascist without reason. Also Antifa has no ideology except for anti-fascism. Just because you’re okay with fascists doesn’t mean everyone is.


Then explain alliances with The Red Fleet (Tags: Anarchist, Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Commended, Communist, Defender, Feminist, Founderless, Game Player, Invader, Minuscule, Non-English, and 5 others.), Korean Peoples Army (Tags: Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Communist, Featured, Feminist, LGBT, Minuscule, Password, Serious, and Socialist.), North Korea (Tags: Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Communist, Democratic, Feminist, Independent, LGBT, Medium, Non-English, Serious, and Socialist.), and others? Especially alarming are the tankies like KPA and NK (who are both based on North Korea, a horribly authoritarian country IRL that routinely commits crimes against humanity), who I would argue are just as bad as fascists, yet, rather than denounce them, Antifa has allied with them?

If Antifa truly has no ideology, then they need to re-evaluate their alliances. To be honest, I flat-out consider this a bold-faced lie, anyway, especially given that Antifa gleefully uses the red flag themselves, a symbol of socialism/communism, and that the IRL Antifa is a far-left organisation.
Last edited by North Saitama on Sun May 12, 2019 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hindu Mahasabha
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Founded: Jan 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hindu Mahasabha » Mon May 13, 2019 7:31 am

North Saitama wrote:
Armaros wrote:Saitama, don't you ever get tired of your own, old, boring nonsense? Because I sure do. If you have nothing sensical to say, you might as well say nothing. The "IC warcrimes" rethoric is pure bullshit. I regard fighting fascism as an OOC matter anyway, but even if one would look at it ICly it's still utter nonsense: raiders attack communities unprovoked, so your "warcrimes" nonsense arguement might be applicable there. Fascists, with their ideology of hate, are not an innocent target.

As to why the SC is against fascism: I obviously don't speak for the SC (lol, like anyone does), but for me, fighting an ideology as hateful and vile as fascism is something all should agree on. The SC generally doesn't like ideologies preaching hate either (kinda goes against the values of the SC if you'd look at it from an IC perspective) so that definitely helps in fighting fascism.


All you are doing, though, is feeding me the same "butt duh face-ists, dough" argument. Don't complain about my alleged "nonsense", then feed me the same nonsense I have criticised over and over.

You have perfectly demonstrated my exact problem, by not even answering my base criticisms; I am almost led to believe that you don't get it, which is why I repeat myself. I have clearly indicated on many occasions that I don't give a damn about what ideology they are (to the point of opposing the offensive liberation of a communist region, for the same reasons), yet every single counter-argument I receive is "butt duh face-ists dough". By continually feeding me this argument, you are basically preaching to the atheist.

For one, NationStates is a game, first and foremost. In-game mechanics like the World Assembly should be IC first and foremost. If fascists are that much of a problem, take OOC routes like talking to admin.

I am also of the belief that actions speak louder than words. That is why I am more concerned and critical of so-called "face-ist hunters" than some backwater fascist region that nobody would otherwise care about. I don't care how horrible someone's opinion is; if you actually DO something bad, you will always be worse.


Honeydewistania wrote:As jo said, aren’t you tired of your broken recorder crap? Antifa has target policies, we don’t just go out and declare regions fascist without reason. Also Antifa has no ideology except for anti-fascism. Just because you’re okay with fascists doesn’t mean everyone is.


Then explain alliances with The Red Fleet (Tags: Anarchist, Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Commended, Communist, Defender, Feminist, Founderless, Game Player, Invader, Minuscule, Non-English, and 5 others.), Korean Peoples Army (Tags: Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Communist, Featured, Feminist, LGBT, Minuscule, Password, Serious, and Socialist.), North Korea (Tags: Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Communist, Democratic, Feminist, Independent, LGBT, Medium, Non-English, Serious, and Socialist.), and others? Especially alarming are the tankies like KPA and NK (who are both based on North Korea, a horribly authoritarian country IRL that routinely commits crimes against humanity), who I would argue are just as bad as fascists, yet, rather than denounce them, Antifa has allied with them?

If Antifa truly has no ideology, then they need to re-evaluate their alliances. To be honest, I flat-out consider this a bold-faced lie, anyway, especially given that Antifa gleefully uses the red flag themselves, a symbol of socialism/communism, and that the IRL Antifa is a far-left organisation.

Recent Antifa tie-ups with New Pacific Order cannot be ignored which led Pacifica move out of Antifa Alliance.
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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon May 13, 2019 7:33 am

Why not?
IC name is "The United Socialist States of America".
This nation does not represent my actual political beliefs.
NS stats are mostly canon, but serve more as a guideline than anything else.
Collectivism, capitalism, authority, and individuality all do not function in a vacuum, or at least not on a large enough scale to be worth basing an ideology around, and they must all be tempered by the opposing force. (Not a centrist, by the way, but they do raise good points, and they're probably the most sane and level headed ideology - and yes, mine is no exception.)
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Hindu Mahasabha
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Postby Hindu Mahasabha » Mon May 13, 2019 7:38 am

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:Why not?

NPO doesn't have a good image in NS.Antifa's association with NPO might damage it's reputation.
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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon May 13, 2019 7:42 am

Hindu Mahasabha wrote:
Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:Why not?

NPO doesn't have a good image in NS.Antifa's association with NPO might damage it's reputation.

I actually posted that without reading the thread. I meant "why not condemn fascist regions?", I don't particularly care about what Antifa does or does not do in this context.
IC name is "The United Socialist States of America".
This nation does not represent my actual political beliefs.
NS stats are mostly canon, but serve more as a guideline than anything else.
Collectivism, capitalism, authority, and individuality all do not function in a vacuum, or at least not on a large enough scale to be worth basing an ideology around, and they must all be tempered by the opposing force. (Not a centrist, by the way, but they do raise good points, and they're probably the most sane and level headed ideology - and yes, mine is no exception.)
Shrek dies in Endgame.
My factbooks are quite messy, I'll update them sometime in the distant future.
Political compass: -5.5 economic, -3.54 social (social democrat), will retake every few months.

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Upper Saust Latiegebestica
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Founded: Feb 18, 2019
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Postby Upper Saust Latiegebestica » Mon May 13, 2019 7:43 am

Woods Is Back wrote:It has proved to be a favorite of the SC to condemn fascist nations/regions. But why? All we are doing is condemning them based on their beliefs- which is just oppressing them. I understand that many of these nations/regions oppress people, take advantage of others, and ruin lives- but isn't that we are doing when we shame them? We usually say that we care for others, but it doesn't seem like we care about them when we are subjecting people to shame based on their beliefs. In my opinion, this should stop, because those fascists could use the same tactics we are using to fight them to retaliate at us, and we all have plenty of dirt on us.

My question to you NS is what do you think, should we continue to condemn people based on their beliefs, or should it stop?

I say don't. Free speech is of utmost importance, and its a nations right to be fascist. Besides, if you want to condemn fascism, condemn commies as well!

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon May 13, 2019 7:54 am

Upper Saust Latiegebestica wrote:
Woods Is Back wrote:It has proved to be a favorite of the SC to condemn fascist nations/regions. But why? All we are doing is condemning them based on their beliefs- which is just oppressing them. I understand that many of these nations/regions oppress people, take advantage of others, and ruin lives- but isn't that we are doing when we shame them? We usually say that we care for others, but it doesn't seem like we care about them when we are subjecting people to shame based on their beliefs. In my opinion, this should stop, because those fascists could use the same tactics we are using to fight them to retaliate at us, and we all have plenty of dirt on us.

My question to you NS is what do you think, should we continue to condemn people based on their beliefs, or should it stop?

I say don't. Free speech is of utmost importance, and its a nations right to be fascist. Besides, if you want to condemn fascism, condemn commies as well!

If you're going to RP as something condemnable, then don't complain when people condemn you. Blame majority opinion if you want, but don't take an IC condemn against an IC nation as an OOC attack.
As for "condemn commies as well", again, blame popular opinion. (Also, NS commies don't generally engage in edgy trollfests the same way NS fascists do.)
If you have a problem with fascists being condemned more than communists, then guess what, there's a way to do something about that that doesn't involve creating threads to whine about it. Write some SC bills condemning communists and repealing fascists' condemnations, campaign for them, and try to get them passed. It's pretty simple.
IC name is "The United Socialist States of America".
This nation does not represent my actual political beliefs.
NS stats are mostly canon, but serve more as a guideline than anything else.
Collectivism, capitalism, authority, and individuality all do not function in a vacuum, or at least not on a large enough scale to be worth basing an ideology around, and they must all be tempered by the opposing force. (Not a centrist, by the way, but they do raise good points, and they're probably the most sane and level headed ideology - and yes, mine is no exception.)
Shrek dies in Endgame.
My factbooks are quite messy, I'll update them sometime in the distant future.
Political compass: -5.5 economic, -3.54 social (social democrat), will retake every few months.

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Lord Dominator
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Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon May 13, 2019 7:54 am

I see we've moved onto whataboutism
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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Founded: Aug 03, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon May 13, 2019 7:56 am

Lord Dominator wrote:I see we've moved onto whataboutism

It's hard to move onto whataboutism when basically the entire thread is built around "but you have to condemn commies too".
IC name is "The United Socialist States of America".
This nation does not represent my actual political beliefs.
NS stats are mostly canon, but serve more as a guideline than anything else.
Collectivism, capitalism, authority, and individuality all do not function in a vacuum, or at least not on a large enough scale to be worth basing an ideology around, and they must all be tempered by the opposing force. (Not a centrist, by the way, but they do raise good points, and they're probably the most sane and level headed ideology - and yes, mine is no exception.)
Shrek dies in Endgame.
My factbooks are quite messy, I'll update them sometime in the distant future.
Political compass: -5.5 economic, -3.54 social (social democrat), will retake every few months.

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Kavagrad
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Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Mon May 13, 2019 7:57 am

Hindu Mahasabha wrote:
Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:Why not?

NPO doesn't have a good image in NS.Antifa's association with NPO might damage it's reputation.

The NPO are better than Fascists. Antifa has every right to align with the NPO if it helps them achieve their goals.

The NPO are an IC pariah, the issue with Fascists on NS is very much OOC.
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Hurdergaryp
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Hurdergaryp » Mon May 13, 2019 7:59 am

Ourisio wrote:In this case, yes. Continue to condemn fascists.

Major-Tom wrote:Fascism is generally something that people should try to condemn. I don't understand anything about gameplay/Security Council, anything like that, I really don't, but if regions with a lot of fascists in them get a simple condemnation, eh, yeah, that's probably cool.

US-SSR wrote:Because fascism sucks and deserves to be condemned.

Borovan entered the region as he wrote:Fascism is something normal person don't associate with. There's something sketchy and to stay away from

In case someone was wondering, I happen to agree with the people quoted above.

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Xoriet
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Xoriet » Mon May 13, 2019 8:00 am

Hindu Mahasabha wrote:
Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:Why not?

NPO doesn't have a good image in NS.Antifa's association with NPO might damage it's reputation.

How did we get dragged into this? <.< Pacifica drew out because they declared war on us and thus couldn't cooperate with us on the field, not because Antifa itself was bad for working with us.
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Soviet Tankistan
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Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby Soviet Tankistan » Mon May 13, 2019 8:01 am

Common sense.
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Hindu Mahasabha
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Founded: Jan 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hindu Mahasabha » Mon May 13, 2019 8:06 am

Kavagrad wrote:
Hindu Mahasabha wrote:NPO doesn't have a good image in NS.Antifa's association with NPO might damage it's reputation.

The NPO are better than Fascists. Antifa has every right to align with the NPO if it helps them achieve their goals.

The NPO are an IC pariah, the issue with Fascists on NS is very much OOC.

I am not comparing NPO and Fascists.
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Hindu Mahasabha
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Founded: Jan 26, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Hindu Mahasabha » Mon May 13, 2019 8:07 am

Xoriet wrote:
Hindu Mahasabha wrote:NPO doesn't have a good image in NS.Antifa's association with NPO might damage it's reputation.

How did we get dragged into this? <.< Pacifica drew out because they declared war on us and thus couldn't cooperate with us on the field, not because Antifa itself was bad for working with us.

I am not saying Antifa is bad,I just quoted the above person who was mentioning with which other regions was Antifa associated and just said NPO is one of them.
Last edited by Hindu Mahasabha on Mon May 13, 2019 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kavagrad
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Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Mon May 13, 2019 8:08 am

Hindu Mahasabha wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:The NPO are better than Fascists. Antifa has every right to align with the NPO if it helps them achieve their goals.

The NPO are an IC pariah, the issue with Fascists on NS is very much OOC.

I am not comparing NPO and Fascists.

I know, I'm saying people ignoring or aiding OOC problems because of IC problems need to get their priorities straightened out.
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Armaros
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Founded: Apr 06, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Armaros » Mon May 13, 2019 8:38 am

North Saitama wrote:
Armaros wrote:Saitama, don't you ever get tired of your own, old, boring nonsense? Because I sure do. If you have nothing sensical to say, you might as well say nothing. The "IC warcrimes" rethoric is pure bullshit. I regard fighting fascism as an OOC matter anyway, but even if one would look at it ICly it's still utter nonsense: raiders attack communities unprovoked, so your "warcrimes" nonsense arguement might be applicable there. Fascists, with their ideology of hate, are not an innocent target.

As to why the SC is against fascism: I obviously don't speak for the SC (lol, like anyone does), but for me, fighting an ideology as hateful and vile as fascism is something all should agree on. The SC generally doesn't like ideologies preaching hate either (kinda goes against the values of the SC if you'd look at it from an IC perspective) so that definitely helps in fighting fascism.


All you are doing, though, is feeding me the same "butt duh face-ists, dough" argument. Don't complain about my alleged "nonsense", then feed me the same nonsense I have criticised over and over.

It's good to know you're okay with the hate fascism stands for. Goes to say what kind of a person you are.
You have perfectly demonstrated my exact problem, by not even answering my base criticisms; I am almost led to believe that you don't get it, which is why I repeat myself. I have clearly indicated on many occasions that I don't give a damn about what ideology they are (to the point of opposing the offensive liberation of a communist region, for the same reasons), yet every single counter-argument I receive is "butt duh face-ists dough". By continually feeding me this argument, you are basically preaching to the atheist.

yes, your nonsense about IC warcrimes was heartwarming. Anything else except "b-but muh game! If they want to spew hate on this site they should be able but muh gaem!"?
For one, NationStates is a game, first and foremost. In-game mechanics like the World Assembly should be IC first and foremost. If fascists are that much of a problem, take OOC routes like talking to admin.

Yes it's a game. And if we don't do something a gathering ground for nazis and fascists. Now you obviously are fine with that but some people who the fascists want dead maybe, just maybe, are not?
I am also of the belief that actions speak louder than words. That is why I am more concerned and critical of so-called "face-ist hunters" than some backwater fascist region that nobody would otherwise care about. I don't care how horrible someone's opinion is; if you actually DO something bad, you will always be worse.

Horrible, playing a game like the game mechanics made it possible must be the worst crime! Spewing hate, preaching for several groups of people to be killed simply for existing is fine, but playing a game? Horrible! What an outrage!

Then explain alliances with The Red Fleet (Tags: Anarchist, Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Commended, Communist, Defender, Feminist, Founderless, Game Player, Invader, Minuscule, Non-English, and 5 others.), Korean Peoples Army (Tags: Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Communist, Featured, Feminist, LGBT, Minuscule, Password, Serious, and Socialist.), North Korea (Tags: Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Communist, Democratic, Feminist, Independent, LGBT, Medium, Non-English, Serious, and Socialist.), and others? Especially alarming are the tankies like KPA and NK (who are both based on North Korea, a horribly authoritarian country IRL that routinely commits crimes against humanity), who I would argue are just as bad as fascists, yet, rather than denounce them, Antifa has allied with them?

I love how you keep defending fascists about how poor they are and then go "BUT DA COMMIES ARE HEAR TOO OH MAH GAWD WHAT A HORRIBLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE!".
If Antifa truly has no ideology, then they need to re-evaluate their alliances. To be honest, I flat-out consider this a bold-faced lie, anyway, especially given that Antifa gleefully uses the red flag themselves, a symbol of socialism/communism, and that the IRL Antifa is a far-left organisation.

Oh noes, Antifa working with other anti-fascist organisations! What an outrage!

Lmfao dude, you're automatically calling a coalition of several regions from differing ideologies because some of it's allies are communist? And the colour of their symbol suddenly also makes them communist. Sorry Capitalist Paradise, your flag features red. You're now "communist pigs" by definition according to this guy.
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North Saitama
Envoy
 
Posts: 225
Founded: Jul 04, 2017
Anarchy

Postby North Saitama » Mon May 13, 2019 7:05 pm

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Upper Saust Latiegebestica wrote:I say don't. Free speech is of utmost importance, and its a nations right to be fascist. Besides, if you want to condemn fascism, condemn commies as well!

If you're going to RP as something condemnable, then don't complain when people condemn you. Blame majority opinion if you want, but don't take an IC condemn against an IC nation as an OOC attack.
As for "condemn commies as well", again, blame popular opinion. (Also, NS commies don't generally engage in edgy trollfests the same way NS fascists do.)
If you have a problem with fascists being condemned more than communists, then guess what, there's a way to do something about that that doesn't involve creating threads to whine about it. Write some SC bills condemning communists and repealing fascists' condemnations, campaign for them, and try to get them passed. It's pretty simple.


If it were merely condemning fascists, I wouldn't care to argue. People seem to be mistaking my case as asking the WA to like fascists. I don't even like fascists, nor ask you to like them; I just think that they deserve justice as much as everyone else.

When the WA has different standards based on ideology, I believe that this is a great injustice, and just makes the WA a farce of itself. Rather than being an organisation dedicated to keeping peace within the NS world, it just becomes an ideological enforcement agency, a tool of ideological warfare.

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:I see we've moved onto whataboutism

It's hard to move onto whataboutism when basically the entire thread is built around "but you have to condemn commies too".


When it comes to justice and how it is applied, whataboutism is necessary, in order to highlight bias and unequal justice.

Armaros wrote:
North Saitama wrote:All you are doing, though, is feeding me the same "butt duh face-ists, dough" argument. Don't complain about my alleged "nonsense", then feed me the same nonsense I have criticised over and over.

1. It's good to know you're okay with the hate fascism stands for. Goes to say what kind of a person you are.
You have perfectly demonstrated my exact problem, by not even answering my base criticisms; I am almost led to believe that you don't get it, which is why I repeat myself. I have clearly indicated on many occasions that I don't give a damn about what ideology they are (to the point of opposing the offensive liberation of a communist region, for the same reasons), yet every single counter-argument I receive is "butt duh face-ists dough". By continually feeding me this argument, you are basically preaching to the atheist.

2. yes, your nonsense about IC warcrimes was heartwarming. Anything else except "b-but muh game! If they want to spew hate on this site they should be able but muh gaem!"?
For one, NationStates is a game, first and foremost. In-game mechanics like the World Assembly should be IC first and foremost. If fascists are that much of a problem, take OOC routes like talking to admin.

3. Yes it's a game. And if we don't do something a gathering ground for nazis and fascists. Now you obviously are fine with that but some people who the fascists want dead maybe, just maybe, are not?
I am also of the belief that actions speak louder than words. That is why I am more concerned and critical of so-called "face-ist hunters" than some backwater fascist region that nobody would otherwise care about. I don't care how horrible someone's opinion is; if you actually DO something bad, you will always be worse.

4. Horrible, playing a game like the game mechanics made it possible must be the worst crime! Spewing hate, preaching for several groups of people to be killed simply for existing is fine, but playing a game? Horrible! What an outrage!

Then explain alliances with The Red Fleet (Tags: Anarchist, Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Commended, Communist, Defender, Feminist, Founderless, Game Player, Invader, Minuscule, Non-English, and 5 others.), Korean Peoples Army (Tags: Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Communist, Featured, Feminist, LGBT, Minuscule, Password, Serious, and Socialist.), North Korea (Tags: Anti-Capitalist, Anti-Fascist, Communist, Democratic, Feminist, Independent, LGBT, Medium, Non-English, Serious, and Socialist.), and others? Especially alarming are the tankies like KPA and NK (who are both based on North Korea, a horribly authoritarian country IRL that routinely commits crimes against humanity), who I would argue are just as bad as fascists, yet, rather than denounce them, Antifa has allied with them?

5. I love how you keep defending fascists about how poor they are and then go "BUT DA COMMIES ARE HEAR TOO OH MAH GAWD WHAT A HORRIBLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE!".
If Antifa truly has no ideology, then they need to re-evaluate their alliances. To be honest, I flat-out consider this a bold-faced lie, anyway, especially given that Antifa gleefully uses the red flag themselves, a symbol of socialism/communism, and that the IRL Antifa is a far-left organisation.

6. Oh noes, Antifa working with other anti-fascist organisations! What an outrage!

Lmfao dude, you're automatically calling a coalition of several regions from differing ideologies because some of it's allies are communist? And the colour of their symbol suddenly also makes them communist. Sorry Capitalist Paradise, your flag features red. You're now "communist pigs" by definition according to this guy.


1. Strawman. I didn't say that I was okay with it, just that it is irrelevant within the context of what I am saying.

2. Again, I mentioned that, if fascists are that much of a problem, talk to the admins. Being that fascism isn't against the rules, I urge you to default to IC reasons within the WA.

3. Again, if it is that much of a problem, talk to the admins. NationStates is a gathering place/battleground of political ideology and ideas. If you want to be anti-fascist, that is fine. But I think that it is wrong to accept and even commend otherwise condemnable actions, based on ideological bias.

Besides, I am mixed Slovak, Mexican, and British, a political libertarian, and generally a tolerant person. Don't tell me about who fascists hate.

4. There is a big difference between actions and words. By your logic, merely wishing death upon someone is as good as attempted murder.

In-game, what this means is that, while we cannot investigate and find proof of death camps warranting action due to mechanical limitations, we can condemn discriminatory policies.

5. If you can refrain from ignorantly jumping to conclusions, the reason I pointed this out is to note how Antifa is ideologically-motivated, and by pointing-out their hypocrisy in that they are allies with organisations that are based on entities guilty of horrific IRL crimes against humanity.

If Antifa really cared about the consequences of fascism, instead of doing so to advance their ideology, they would condemn the horrific authoritarians within their own sphere of influence, first.

6. Its biggest allies are communist, and the IRL Antifa is a far-left organisation that has attacked even non-fascist right-wingers. They even use the same logo as the IRL Antifa. So excuse me for not being confident in their claim to not be ideological.

Besides, there is a difference between red elements on a flag, and a wholly red flag. Entirely and/or mostly red flags are typically associated with socialism and/or communism. See here.
Last edited by North Saitama on Mon May 13, 2019 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
North Saitama Overview Current Year: 1988
Pro: Capitalism, Individual Liberty, Leeks
Anti: Socialism, Communism, Authoritarianism, Dogmatic Atheism

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Kowani
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6047
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed May 15, 2019 6:33 pm

My knowledge of Gameplay and SC stuff is beyond nonexistent, but...fascists aren’t owed IC decency. OOC is a bit different, since ya don’t know if the player is a RL fascist or not.
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North Saitama
Envoy
 
Posts: 225
Founded: Jul 04, 2017
Anarchy

Postby North Saitama » Wed May 15, 2019 7:52 pm

Kowani wrote:My knowledge of Gameplay and SC stuff is beyond nonexistent, but...fascists aren’t owed IC decency. OOC is a bit different, since ya don’t know if the player is a RL fascist or not.


Therein lies the problem, though. In my opinion, EVERYONE, no matter how abhorrent their views are, is owed basic justice and fair treatment, and, if there are any crimes, punishment befitting the crime. Since perverting justice and applying biased standards just makes the SC no different from a lynch mob.
North Saitama Overview Current Year: 1988
Pro: Capitalism, Individual Liberty, Leeks
Anti: Socialism, Communism, Authoritarianism, Dogmatic Atheism

Japan Regional Discord

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