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Trans Discussion Thread 4: Ah, yes, the 4 genders

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What are your pronouns?

I am trans; he/him
3
4%
I am cis; he/him
38
51%
I am trans; she/her
18
24%
I am cis; she/her
9
12%
I am trans; they/them
7
9%
I am cis; they/them
0
No votes
I am trans; it/its
0
No votes
I am cis; it/its
0
No votes
I am trans; other pronouns
0
No votes
I am cis; other pronouns
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 75

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Jykku
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Founded: Sep 04, 2014
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Postby Jykku » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:40 pm

Cekoviu wrote:Soda and pop aren't really slang, just regional lexical items.

Pop is slang, but soda is not, because "soda" comes from the sodium compound that carbonates the water (ie: Club Soda).
The origin of "pop" varies depending on the source -- some say it comes from the "pop" sound of removing a cork from a bottle of soda (back when soda came in glass bottles with corks on them, I assume), though there seems to be an account of "pop" originating from a 19th Century beverage called "ginger pop", which does not appear to contain any sodium carbonation compounds, so your mileage may vary on that.

TL;DR - "Pop" is slang, "Soda" is not, and "soda" is the proper term for carbonated beverages.
Last edited by Jykku on Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:43 pm

Jykku wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:Soda and pop aren't really slang, just regional lexical items.

Pop is slang, but soda is not, because "soda" comes from the sodium compound that carbonates the water (ie: Club Soda).
The origin of "pop" varies depending on the source -- some say it comes from the "pop" sound of removing a cork from a bottle of soda (back when soda came in glass bottles with corks on them, I assume), though there seems to be an account of "pop" originating from a beverage called "ginger pop", which does not appear to contain any sodium carbonation compounds, so your mileage may vary on that.

TL;DR - "Pop" is slang, "Soda" is not, and "soda" is the proper term for carbonated beverages.

Carbonated beverages are carbonated by carbon dioxide, not sodium. Wiki sayeth ...

In 1767, Joseph Priestley discovered a method of infusing water with carbon dioxide when he suspended a bowl of water above a beer vat at a local brewery in Leeds, England.[26][27] The air blanketing the fermenting beer—called 'fixed air'—was known to kill mice suspended in it.[citation needed] Priestley found water thus treated had a pleasant taste, and he offered it to friends as a cool, refreshing drink. At that time, as even now, sodium bicarbonate was used in medicines and for making baking powder. Known as 'soda bicarb', it was produced by bubbling carbon-dioxide through a solution of sodium carbonate obtained from the ashes of plants. In 1772, Priestley published a paper titled Impregnating Water with Fixed Air in which he describes dripping "oil of vitriol" (sulfuric acid) onto chalk to produce carbon dioxide gas, and encouraging the gas to dissolve into an agitated bowl of water.[4] Priestley referred to his invention of soda water as being his "happiest" discovery.[28]


Oh, and club soda?

In 1783, Jacob Schweppe, a jeweller and amateur scientist of Geneva, began the commercial production of carbonated mineral water by dissolving the CO2 under pressure.[4] In 1807, Benjamin Silliman, a Yale chemistry professor, began producing carbonated water under pressure and selling it in New Haven, Connecticut. In the 1830s, Anyos Jedlik of Hungary opened a large-scale carbonated water factory. The original trademarked club soda was made by Cantrell & Cochrane of Dublin, Ireland in 1877. The 'club' refers to the Kildare Street Club in Dublin who commissioned them to produce it.[5]
Last edited by Farnhamia on Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:53 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Jykku wrote:Pop is slang, but soda is not, because "soda" comes from the sodium compound that carbonates the water (ie: Club Soda).
The origin of "pop" varies depending on the source -- some say it comes from the "pop" sound of removing a cork from a bottle of soda (back when soda came in glass bottles with corks on them, I assume), though there seems to be an account of "pop" originating from a beverage called "ginger pop", which does not appear to contain any sodium carbonation compounds, so your mileage may vary on that.

TL;DR - "Pop" is slang, "Soda" is not, and "soda" is the proper term for carbonated beverages.

Carbonated beverages are carbonated by carbon dioxide, not sodium. Wiki sayeth ...

Soda water in the UK has sodium chloride, i.e. salt, in it.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:57 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Carbonated beverages are carbonated by carbon dioxide, not sodium. Wiki sayeth ...

Soda water in the UK has sodium chloride, i.e. salt, in it.

That would make it club soda, which is carbonated mineral water. Regardless, it isn't the salt that makes it fizzy.

But we digress.
Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:10 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Soda water in the UK has sodium chloride, i.e. salt, in it.

That would make it club soda, which is carbonated mineral water.

Here we just call it soda water. Soda water without salt is just called sparkling water.

Farnhamia wrote:Regardless, it isn't the salt that makes it fizzy.

Indeed it is not.

Farnhamia wrote:But we digress.

Yes.

Grenartia wrote:But we're getting distracted. Sex and gender are not the same.

Has that been equated yet again?
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Serrus
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Serrus » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:31 pm

True Refuge wrote:I've only seen xe/xyr used in place of they/their when the user wants to emphasize that they are not assuming anything about the person they're referring to.

The most recent example I've seen that encapsulates this was in Becky Chambers' science fiction novel The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet, in which it's used in reference to members of other species so as to not make presumptions about others' ideas of gender systems and biology where "they" isn't sufficiently neutral.

I think the concept translates pretty well to when it's just humans. It's a politer form of gender-neutral language that isn't needed because there aren't many people who find "they" insufficient.

I know this has nothing to do with the current linguistical firestorm, but The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet is a really good book, you guys.
Also trans and NB people are valid. Sex =/= gender. I thought this was obvious, but "Science-Man" over here seems to not get it.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:00 pm

Serrus wrote:
True Refuge wrote:I've only seen xe/xyr used in place of they/their when the user wants to emphasize that they are not assuming anything about the person they're referring to.

The most recent example I've seen that encapsulates this was in Becky Chambers' science fiction novel The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet, in which it's used in reference to members of other species so as to not make presumptions about others' ideas of gender systems and biology where "they" isn't sufficiently neutral.

I think the concept translates pretty well to when it's just humans. It's a politer form of gender-neutral language that isn't needed because there aren't many people who find "they" insufficient.

I know this has nothing to do with the current linguistical firestorm, but The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet is a really good book, you guys.
Also trans and NB people are valid. Sex =/= gender. I thought this was obvious, but "Science-Man" over here seems to not get it.


It’s always confusing to me, for some reason, the emphasis some put on the gender denial deal. And by that I mean that someone identifies as the gender of their expression and the gender they feel comfortable with and there’s nothing wrong with that. Why deny them that? I don’t get it. Sometimes a biological man identifies as a transgender woman. Sometimes a person doesn’t identify with the binary. Sometimes that identification is fluid. And I particularly don’t see why that’s wrong.
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CivitasDei
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Founded: Nov 03, 2019
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Postby CivitasDei » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:32 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Serrus wrote:I know this has nothing to do with the current linguistical firestorm, but The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet is a really good book, you guys.
Also trans and NB people are valid. Sex =/= gender. I thought this was obvious, but "Science-Man" over here seems to not get it.


It’s always confusing to me, for some reason, the emphasis some put on the gender denial deal. And by that I mean that someone identifies as the gender of their expression and the gender they feel comfortable with and there’s nothing wrong with that. Why deny them that? I don’t get it. Sometimes a biological man identifies as a transgender woman. Sometimes a person doesn’t identify with the binary. Sometimes that identification is fluid. And I particularly don’t see why that’s wrong.

People express more reactionary views when they're afraid, this is somewhat established in psychology. I'm unsure to which extent this occurs in the minds of transphobes, but sometimes, it's fear that they're coming after them. Other times, as a former transphobe, I can say that it's genuinely metaphysical skepticism coupled with privilege. The latter is actually more sinister, because often they can be exposed to trans people for years and never change their views. Hell, it took me realizing I was trans to convince myself once and for all that those views were wrong. It takes a great deal of intellectual humility to be wrong about something like this, and most people simply aren't willing to question the manufactured ideology present throughout society.

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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:52 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Grenartia wrote:But we're getting distracted. Sex and gender are not the same.

Has that been equated yet again?


I believe that was the point of this entire tangent, was it not?

Serrus wrote:
True Refuge wrote:I've only seen xe/xyr used in place of they/their when the user wants to emphasize that they are not assuming anything about the person they're referring to.

The most recent example I've seen that encapsulates this was in Becky Chambers' science fiction novel The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet, in which it's used in reference to members of other species so as to not make presumptions about others' ideas of gender systems and biology where "they" isn't sufficiently neutral.

I think the concept translates pretty well to when it's just humans. It's a politer form of gender-neutral language that isn't needed because there aren't many people who find "they" insufficient.

I know this has nothing to do with the current linguistical firestorm, but The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet is a really good book, you guys.
Also trans and NB people are valid. Sex =/= gender. I thought this was obvious, but "Science-Man" over here seems to not get it.


Its always fun for the actual scientists when the science understander logs on.

CivitasDei wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
It’s always confusing to me, for some reason, the emphasis some put on the gender denial deal. And by that I mean that someone identifies as the gender of their expression and the gender they feel comfortable with and there’s nothing wrong with that. Why deny them that? I don’t get it. Sometimes a biological man identifies as a transgender woman. Sometimes a person doesn’t identify with the binary. Sometimes that identification is fluid. And I particularly don’t see why that’s wrong.

People express more reactionary views when they're afraid, this is somewhat established in psychology. I'm unsure to which extent this occurs in the minds of transphobes, but sometimes, it's fear that they're coming after them. Other times, as a former transphobe, I can say that it's genuinely metaphysical skepticism coupled with privilege. The latter is actually more sinister, because often they can be exposed to trans people for years and never change their views. Hell, it took me realizing I was trans to convince myself once and for all that those views were wrong. It takes a great deal of intellectual humility to be wrong about something like this, and most people simply aren't willing to question the manufactured ideology present throughout society.


Honestly, yeah, I've had a similar experience.
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Saciu
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Postby Saciu » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:27 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Saciu wrote:As Proctopeo said, that's the point. Are pavement and sidewalk not the same?

I think pavement counts as a hypernym and a slang term for "sidewalk".
So, yes and no.

Really? How is pavement in anyway slang? And what can be considered pavement that can't be considered sidewalk?
EDIT: Yeah, I'll disagree with you on that. as I can't see how roads etc can be considered pavement. BUT, as many people said, we're digressing.
Last edited by Saciu on Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CivitasDei
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Postby CivitasDei » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:27 pm

Grenartia wrote:Honestly, yeah, I've had a similar experience.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one! For a long time, it was a source of shame for me.

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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:38 pm

CivitasDei wrote:
Grenartia wrote:Honestly, yeah, I've had a similar experience.

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one! For a long time, it was a source of shame for me.


I understand that, but I take comfort in having changed for the better.
Impeach Humanity, Legalize Death Stars, Life is TheftWis/Gren 2016 Something all cisgender allies should start doing. I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith. ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:21 am

Grenartia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Has that been equated yet again?


I believe that was the point of this entire tangent, was it not?

Sorry I was away for a while.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:53 am

Cekoviu wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:I mean, a lot of people will claim that most of psychology is genetic, the whole "nature/nurture" thing and all that, but I'd say otherwise. Either way, it's clear scientifically that sex and gender are two different things, hence why they are different words.

That's not a very good argument. "Soda" and "pop" are two different words, but that doesn't mean they're different things.

Yes they are. Call it "soda" in my beautiful Minnesota and we'll break your legs dont'cha know. :p
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:55 am

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:That's not a very good argument. "Soda" and "pop" are two different words, but that doesn't mean they're different things.

Yes they are. Call it "soda" in my beautiful Minnesota and we'll break your legs dont'cha know. :p

What are we, in a hockey arena?
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:58 am

Cekoviu wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Yes they are. Call it "soda" in my beautiful Minnesota and we'll break your legs dont'cha know. :p

What are we, in a hockey arena?


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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:57 am

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:That's not a very good argument. "Soda" and "pop" are two different words, but that doesn't mean they're different things.

Yes they are. Call it "soda" in my beautiful Minnesota and we'll break your legs dont'cha know. :p

Agreed. You'll call it "Coke" in the sweet state of Texas or we'll stop being sweet.
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West Leas Oros 2
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:57 am

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Yes they are. Call it "soda" in my beautiful Minnesota and we'll break your legs dont'cha know. :p

Agreed. You'll call it "Coke" in the sweet state of Texas or we'll stop being sweet.

What if I order a pepsi? :p
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Saciu
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Anarchy

Postby Saciu » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:23 am

What are these juvenile words? Across the pond, in the South of England, we call it carbonated beverages (or fizzy drinks, especially younger people)
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:39 pm

Saciu wrote:What are these juvenile words? Across the pond, in the South of England, we call it carbonated beverages (or fizzy drinks, especially younger people)


US idioms that often confuse those who are not used to them. I know I was when I first moved here. Pop, soda, or how many in the south still refer to any carbonated drink as Coke. But you get used to it and know when to switch idioms to be understood.
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