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do capitalists want to be slapped?

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which method is better

work sweatshop for nothing
49
47%
use pimp hand on capitalists
56
53%
 
Total votes : 105

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:41 am

The Great-German Empire wrote:
Socialist Workers Combine wrote:Being educated and healthy isn’t so much free stuff as it is necessary to live and work.


It's quite absurd to claim that those things not being completely tax-funded somehow makes them inaccessible to a vast majority. It's clearly not the case.


Being inaccessible at all to those who require them is not acceptable.
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Socialist Workers Combine
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Founded: Apr 16, 2019
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Socialist Workers Combine » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:44 am

The idea that US college is affordable is laughable. Healthcare can also become quite ridiculous.
Last edited by Socialist Workers Combine on Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Great-German Empire
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New York Times Democracy

Postby The Great-German Empire » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:49 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Being inaccessible at all to those who require them is not acceptable.


They're often less inaccessible and more massively inconvenient to those who receive the service and then have trouble paying off whatever debt they've accrued due to it. With college it works a bit better because education in a useful field will lead to a better job.

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:The idea that US college is affordable is laughable.


There are multiple factors which make it more affordable than the, let's call it, "list price".

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:Healthcare can also become quite ridiculous


That it actually can. Luckily more well-off, healthy people have been known to toss money at people in those situations - and call me heartless, condescending or a rich pig, but I think that might be much less inconvenient in the long run than a state-run service that takes much longer to actually dispense treatment and the doctors in which are often less motivated. Add to that the fact that US private medicine innovates like a goddamn machine, and the deal Americans get isn't actually raw in the slightest.
Last edited by The Great-German Empire on Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:49 am

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:The idea that US college is affordable is laughable.

Affordable is an interesting word. No matter what we're talking about, no matter how much it costs, it's always affordable to some subset of people, and definitionally always not affordable to everyone else. Private islands aren't affordable for normal people, but they are for billionaires. Everything is affordable if you're rich enough. Nothing is affordable if you're too poor.

It's this wibbly-wobbly ball of money-woney stuff.
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Socialist Workers Combine
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Founded: Apr 16, 2019
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Socialist Workers Combine » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:56 am

The Great-German Empire wrote:There are multiple factors which make it more affordable than the, let's call it, "list price".

If you say so, I talked to a guy in tech who’d been paying for ten years.

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Fartsniffage
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:57 am

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:GDP is 10k higher than Denmark, also doesn’t provide things Denmark provides. I’m not sure what natural resources Denmark has.


Bacon.

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Socialist Workers Combine
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Socialist Workers Combine » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:58 am

The Great-German Empire wrote:Add to that the fact that US private medicine innovates like a goddamn machine, and the deal Americans get isn't actually raw in the slightest.

Last I heard they were running out of insulin.

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The Great-German Empire
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New York Times Democracy

Postby The Great-German Empire » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:58 am

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:If you say so, I talked to a guy in tech who’d been paying for ten years.


You conveniently leave out how much he has been paying, making it sound like he's giving away every last penny of his savings. Forgive me if I doubt that this is the case.
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Socialist Workers Combine
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Socialist Workers Combine » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:07 am

The Great-German Empire wrote:You conveniently leave out how much he has been paying, making it sound like he's giving away every last penny of his savings. Forgive me if I doubt that this is the case.

33-37K. A job in your field may not be available in the first place.

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The Great-German Empire
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New York Times Democracy

Postby The Great-German Empire » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:12 am

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:
The Great-German Empire wrote:You conveniently leave out how much he has been paying, making it sound like he's giving away every last penny of his savings. Forgive me if I doubt that this is the case.

33-37K. A job in your field may not be available in the first place.


33-37k of what, per what, how many times. Because if it's dollars per year for the last 10 years, I am really confused by what the hell kind of college he'd gone to to accrue an over 350K college debt.

Just pick a good field and don't get a degree in any form of liberal arts.
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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:16 am

The Great-German Empire wrote:
Socialist Workers Combine wrote:33-37K. A job in your field may not be available in the first place.


33-37k of what, per what, how many times. Because if it's dollars per year for the last 10 years, I am really confused by what the hell kind of college he'd gone to to accrue an over 350K college debt.

Just pick a good field and don't get a degree in any form of liberal arts.

What I'm reading here is that trade schools are apparently the only acceptable kind of college.
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Socialist Workers Combine
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Socialist Workers Combine » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:20 am

Capitalism wants a reserve army of the unemployed or underemployed, but it wants you to burden the training cost. At least in the United States - and depending who becomes president maybe.

I don’t imagine it’s that affordable in such a case. For a doctor I imagine it also drives up healthcare costs.

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Holy Tedalonia
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Holy Tedalonia » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:32 am

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:The idea runs that the capitalist class wants you to have no labour standards, low taxes low wage etc,. But what it the opposite is true? What if they actually want to be slapped?

You know us capitalists are into some kinky things.
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Technocratic Uganda
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Ex-Nation

Postby Technocratic Uganda » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:38 am

Allowing people to own businesses but taxing the daylights out of them and allowing bureaucrats to hold public enterprises in the exact same way perpetuates the exact same system and has almost the exact same results for those at the bottom. In fact, it's worse, by alleviating the worries of those at the bottom with little compromises like a Scandinavian mixed-market welfare state you are perpetuating the capitalist system of exploitation and stealing. If you were truly opposed to capitalism and in favour of socialism you would despise social democracy and want to tear all systems in which the workers don't have democratic control over their workplaces down violently. Of course, you seem only to care about free shit with a label reading "socialism" slapped onto it, which is a very peculiarly American understanding of the word and a misguided one.
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The Great-German Empire
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New York Times Democracy

Postby The Great-German Empire » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:38 am

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:Capitalism wants a reserve army of the unemployed or underemployed, but it wants you to burden the training cost. At least in the United States - and depending who becomes president maybe.

I don’t imagine it’s that affordable in such a case. For a doctor I imagine it also drives up healthcare costs.


Where'd you even get that reserve army argument? Which capitalist doctrine exactly are you (supposedly) referring to?
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Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:43 am

The so called democratic socialist nations of Europe work, because they rely on a Capitalist economy and market of large corporations and small private businesses to tax and provide socialist like government services, not self employed, cuentapropista, timbireche, rinky-dink businesses like in Cuba.

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Socialist Workers Combine
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Socialist Workers Combine » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:46 am

Technocratic Uganda wrote:If you were truly opposed to capitalism and in favour of socialism you would despise social democracy and want to tear down all systems in which the workers don't have democratic control over their workplaces.

Ssssshhhhh baby steps
Last edited by Socialist Workers Combine on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Socialist Workers Combine
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Postby Socialist Workers Combine » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:49 am

The Great-German Empire wrote:Where'd you even get that reserve army argument? Which capitalist doctrine exactly are you (supposedly) referring to?

Ok then maybe it just wants people to get degrees for which job numbers are flexible. And pay to do so. What a privilege! We should outsource said cost to the poor, rather than people who make more money than they are even capable of spending. (Personally, not even taking into account corporate profits)
Last edited by Socialist Workers Combine on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Technocratic Uganda
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Ex-Nation

Postby Technocratic Uganda » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:53 am

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:
Technocratic Uganda wrote:If you were truly opposed to capitalism and in favour of socialism you would despise social democracy and want to tear down all systems in which the workers don't have democratic control over their workplaces.

Ssssshhhhh baby steps

Say after me
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The Black Party
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Black Party » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:55 am

I don't like Capitalism, in fact I despise it, but after thoroughly reading the OP I can confidently state that I am indeed an AnCap.
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Holy Tedalonia
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Holy Tedalonia » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:57 am

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:The idea runs that the capitalist class wants you to have no labour standards, low taxes low wage etc,. But what it the opposite is true? What if they actually want to be slapped? The last time they provided a living wage tax was 90-70% after given amount and they were competing with the Soviet Union, the economy and you could get a house, car and college.

Note that China has lower standards, but US is still ahead of China (except Macao).
Norway GDP is 12000 higher than US.


The Norwegian economy is an example of a mixed economy, a prosperous capitalist welfare state and social democracy country featuring a combination of free market activity and large state ownership in certain key sectors. Public health care in Norway is free (after an annual charge of around 2000 kroner for those over 16), and parents have 46 weeks paid parental leave. 9.5% of the population aged 18–66 receive a disability pension and 30% of the labour force are employed by the government, the highest in the OECD. The hourly productivity levels, as well as average hourly wages in Norway, are among the highest in the world.

The egalitarian values of Norwegian society have kept the wage difference between the lowest paid worker and the CEO of most companies as much less than in comparable western economies. The state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors, such as the strategic petroleum sector (Statoil), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminium production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DNB), and telecommunication provider (Telenor). Through these big companies, the government controls approximately 30% of the stock values at the Oslo Stock Exchange. When non-listed companies are included, the state has even higher share in ownership (mainly from direct oil licence ownership).

which method is better: work sweatshop for nothing, or slap them silly?

Note that China has lower standards, but US is still ahead of China (except Macao).
Norway GDP is 12000 higher than US.

Norway GDP is 12000 higher than US.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-in ... es/Economy

GDP ———Norway ————————————USA——
————$499.67 billion ——————$15.68 trillion
————Ranked 23th ———————Ranked 2nd.
———————————————-31 times more than Norway
Last edited by Holy Tedalonia on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:04 am

Holy Tedalonia wrote:
Socialist Workers Combine wrote:The idea runs that the capitalist class wants you to have no labour standards, low taxes low wage etc,. But what it the opposite is true? What if they actually want to be slapped? The last time they provided a living wage tax was 90-70% after given amount and they were competing with the Soviet Union, the economy and you could get a house, car and college.

Note that China has lower standards, but US is still ahead of China (except Macao).
Norway GDP is 12000 higher than US.


The Norwegian economy is an example of a mixed economy, a prosperous capitalist welfare state and social democracy country featuring a combination of free market activity and large state ownership in certain key sectors. Public health care in Norway is free (after an annual charge of around 2000 kroner for those over 16), and parents have 46 weeks paid parental leave. 9.5% of the population aged 18–66 receive a disability pension and 30% of the labour force are employed by the government, the highest in the OECD. The hourly productivity levels, as well as average hourly wages in Norway, are among the highest in the world.

The egalitarian values of Norwegian society have kept the wage difference between the lowest paid worker and the CEO of most companies as much less than in comparable western economies. The state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors, such as the strategic petroleum sector (Statoil), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminium production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DNB), and telecommunication provider (Telenor). Through these big companies, the government controls approximately 30% of the stock values at the Oslo Stock Exchange. When non-listed companies are included, the state has even higher share in ownership (mainly from direct oil licence ownership).

which method is better: work sweatshop for nothing, or slap them silly?

Note that China has lower standards, but US is still ahead of China (except Macao).
Norway GDP is 12000 higher than US.

Norway GDP is 12000 higher than US.

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-in ... es/Economy

GDP ———Norway ————————————USA——
————$499.67 billion ——————$15.68 trillion
————Ranked 23th ———————Ranked 2nd.
———————————————-31 times more than Norway

I'm pretty sure they meant Per Capita

But Per Capita doesn't adjust for Taxes iirc
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Holy Tedalonia
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Holy Tedalonia » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:

I'm pretty sure they meant Per Capita

But Per Capita doesn't adjust for Taxes iirc

Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s what he meant, but it’s a fallacious stance that doesn’t bring in all the details. Had he said per capita I would be kinder.
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Erythrean Thebes
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Postby Erythrean Thebes » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:11 am

Though I long ago accepted the condition of being permanently alienated from my fellow human beings in character and disposition, still, personally, I find this to be an unhelpful means of framing the situation posed by wealth inequality and macroeconomics in the West. Does it really help anybody to appreciate the seriousness of the inequality problem to put it in jocular terms of pranking people; will it help people to understand the parameters of the problem to eliminate the vocabulary of scarcity and sharing and promote a language of personal animosity instead? It's NUTSO to take a social engineering and political science question for which the agents and quantities are already defined and rephrase it into some kind of simplified analogy about hate, shame, and guilt. The way to solve political and economic problems is not to rephrase and reinterpret them, the way is to take hold of them on the terms in which they actually operate and negotiate those terms into a new relationship - the more egalitarian circumstance looked for. Though perhaps this is kind of funny. Or perhaps it's anger but, when I'm angry about something, the last and least effective thing I want to do is diminutize my anger into more childish terms.

But whatever, I'm only one person
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First American Empire
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Libertarian Police State

Postby First American Empire » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:21 am

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:The idea runs that the capitalist class wants you to have no labour standards, low taxes low wage etc,. But what it the opposite is true? What if they actually want to be slapped? The last time they provided a living wage tax was 90-70% after given amount and they were competing with the Soviet Union, the economy and you could get a house, car and college.

Note that China has lower standards, but US is still ahead of China (except Macao).
Norway GDP is 12000 higher than US.

The Norwegian economy is an example of a mixed economy, a prosperous capitalist welfare state and social democracy country featuring a combination of free market activity and large state ownership in certain key sectors. Public health care in Norway is free (after an annual charge of around 2000 kroner for those over 16), and parents have 46 weeks paid parental leave. 9.5% of the population aged 18–66 receive a disability pension and 30% of the labour force are employed by the government, the highest in the OECD. The hourly productivity levels, as well as average hourly wages in Norway, are among the highest in the world.

The egalitarian values of Norwegian society have kept the wage difference between the lowest paid worker and the CEO of most companies as much less than in comparable western economies. The state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors, such as the strategic petroleum sector (Statoil), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminium production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DNB), and telecommunication provider (Telenor). Through these big companies, the government controls approximately 30% of the stock values at the Oslo Stock Exchange. When non-listed companies are included, the state has even higher share in ownership (mainly from direct oil licence ownership).

which method is better: work sweatshop for nothing, or slap them silly?


Scandinavian-style social democracy is the most successful economic system ever created, for all the reasons you described. Why are you a communist instead of a social democrat, exactly?
The American Empire is a socially progressive and strongly anti-nationalist absolute monarchy ruled by the heirs of Emperor Norton.

Formerly Second Empire of America.

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