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Immigration and the inevitability of Communism

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Soviet-American Combine
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Postby Soviet-American Combine » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:05 pm

I never suggested a one party dictatorship

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Frasian Viceroyalty
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Postby Frasian Viceroyalty » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:17 pm

Communism is not inevitable. It is incompatible with the West, and never will be a viable option. It has failed a multitude of times and will continue to do so. The only system that has truly survived and shown its worth is that of the capitalist democracies, which continue to survive and work till this day.

As for a communist United States, I'd hope that never happens as I would probably shoot myself.

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:48 pm

Frasian Viceroyalty wrote:Communism is not inevitable. It is incompatible with the West, and never will be a viable option. It has failed a multitude of times and will continue to do so. The only system that has truly survived and shown its worth is that of the capitalist democracies, which continue to survive and work till this day.

Communism was never tried (attempted to be reached, yes, but never tried). Also capitalist countries have their own problems.
Frasian Viceroyalty wrote:As for a communist United States, I'd hope that never happens as I would probably shoot myself.

Idk why people say this. Also a communist United States wouldn't exist. Communism advocates for statelessness, and the United States is a state. "Communist >insert country here<" is an oxymoron.
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Lesser Bavaria
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Postby Lesser Bavaria » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:43 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Frasian Viceroyalty wrote:Communism is not inevitable. It is incompatible with the West, and never will be a viable option. It has failed a multitude of times and will continue to do so. The only system that has truly survived and shown its worth is that of the capitalist democracies, which continue to survive and work till this day.

Communism was never tried (attempted to be reached, yes, but never tried). Also capitalist countries have their own problems.
Frasian Viceroyalty wrote:As for a communist United States, I'd hope that never happens as I would probably shoot myself.

Idk why people say this. Also a communist United States wouldn't exist. Communism advocates for statelessness, and the United States is a state. "Communist >insert country here<" is an oxymoron.

You are arguing on a technicality, and while you are right in a way, you are also avoiding the obvious reality of what people are referring to. You are in essence dodging the meaning of what people are saying. In contemporary nomenclature and for everyday discussion, a Communist Country is the One-Party State with a Command Economy, but can also refer to nations that evolved from this system and are still Socialist with one party being legal, such as with China and Vietnam.

Hence why throughout my arguments i have been putting "Communist" in quotation marks. Technically Communism has never been achieved, apart from primitive Communism such as what some primitive tribes and groups have and have had. Now, while Capitalist countries have their own problems, those problems are typically less extreme than those faced by Communist nations, barring special circumstances. The most obvious comparison is between the Soviet Union and the United States. While the United States steadily grew, the Soviet Union eventually stagnated and broke apart-ironically into a number of Capitalistic nations. This wasn't a cultural victory, it was a victory of ideology. We know this for certain because nations like China and Vietnam were forced to adopt some degree of Capitalism in order to survive.

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First American Empire
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Postby First American Empire » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:22 pm

Frasian Viceroyalty wrote:As for a communist United States, I'd hope that never happens as I would probably shoot myself.


Eh. I probably wouldn't care. It'll result in economic turmoil and collapse in a few decades, but that's also going to happen under the current system, so there isn't really much of a difference.
Last edited by First American Empire on Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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American Soviet Combine
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Postby American Soviet Combine » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:56 pm

I never suggested a one party dictatorship and I’m open to alternatives to the command economy. Though it does seem to me that the trend is towards centralism. Companies centralize research to reduce duplication.

I suggest primarily Soviet democracy. I.e. a political system based on delegates of workers councils. I imagine that they would plan their economy to some extent, as the economy is already planned to some extent. Hence a democratic planned economy.
Last edited by American Soviet Combine on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Wastelandcraxy
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Postby Wastelandcraxy » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:10 pm

Full communism requires a post scarcity economy. The OP is seriously underestimating the difficulty in planning an economy even if is broken down into a more decentralized one. The technology still isn't good enough to plan an economy not to mention how terrible the incentives tend to be in said planned economy. Bureaucracy whether it be decentralized or centralized always leads to inefficiencies, this is ignoring the fact that the economy couldn't be decentralized all that much due to in simple terms how economies work in general.
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Umpus
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Postby Umpus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:03 pm

Waiting for the people who try to make communism a political ideology... :roll:
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Doing it Rightland
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Postby Doing it Rightland » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:04 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Communism was never tried (attempted to be reached, yes, but never tried).

If I had a nickel for every time I'd heard this, I'd be able to fund your little socialist experiments indefinitely (But I wouldn't).
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Also capitalist countries have their own problems.

Everyone has their own problems. Chronic goods shortages, rampant famine, oppressive media control, intense military dictatorship, resource mismanagement, and flight of wealth, are just a few that communist countries have had. While some capitalist countries may also have these issues periodically, only in communist nations have a majority of these become endemic.
Frasian Viceroyalty wrote:As for a communist United States, I'd hope that never happens as I would probably shoot myself.

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Idk why people say this. Also a communist United States wouldn't exist. Communism advocates for statelessness, and the United States is a state. "Communist >insert country here<" is an oxymoron.

People say that because you Trotskyist world-revolutionaries forget that in order to get the ball rolling, you have to start somewhere. Statelessness comes after the dictatorship of the proletariat, and nobody's gotten past that. If you think you can, good luck. You'll need it.
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:10 pm

Doing it Rightland wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Communism was never tried (attempted to be reached, yes, but never tried).

If I had a nickel for every time I'd heard this, I'd be able to fund your little socialist experiments indefinitely (But I wouldn't).
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Also capitalist countries have their own problems.

Everyone has their own problems. Chronic goods shortages, rampant famine, oppressive media control, intense military dictatorship, resource mismanagement, and flight of wealth, are just a few that communist countries have had. While some capitalist countries may also have these issues periodically, only in communist nations have a majority of these become endemic.
Frasian Viceroyalty wrote:As for a communist United States, I'd hope that never happens as I would probably shoot myself.

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Idk why people say this. Also a communist United States wouldn't exist. Communism advocates for statelessness, and the United States is a state. "Communist >insert country here<" is an oxymoron.

People say that because you Trotskyist world-revolutionaries forget that in order to get the ball rolling, you have to start somewhere. Statelessness comes after the dictatorship of the proletariat, and nobody's gotten past that. If you think you can, good luck. You'll need it.
and what is the "dictatorship of the proletariat"?
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
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Lefty Canuckia
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Postby Lefty Canuckia » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:16 pm

Why's every NSG thread title like

"Why don't you guys follow my niche and very specific ideology?"

I think open borders are neat but probably not feasible in practice as the economy won't be able to expand quickly enough to accommodate all migrants at once, with the rate they'd arrive under an open borders system. I'd prefer an extremely lax but still ordered border system
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:20 pm

Doing it Rightland wrote:you Trotskyist world-revolutionaries

Hol up lol, I barely even know what Trotskyism is. How'm I gonna stand by an ideology I barely even know the meaning of?
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:30 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Doing it Rightland wrote:you Trotskyist world-revolutionaries

Hol up lol, I barely even know what Trotskyism is. How'm I gonna stand by an ideology I barely even know the meaning of?
all you need to know is nuclear war brings communism from space
there we go, most important aspect of trotskyism
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
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First American Empire
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Postby First American Empire » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:06 am

Kubra wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Hol up lol, I barely even know what Trotskyism is. How'm I gonna stand by an ideology I barely even know the meaning of?
all you need to know is nuclear war brings communism from space
there we go, most important aspect of trotskyism


That's Posadism, not Trotskyism.
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Postby Shanhwa » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:31 am

:rofl:
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Doing it Rightland
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Postby Doing it Rightland » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:48 am

Kubra wrote:and what is the "dictatorship of the proletariat"?

It's a term pulled straight from the Communist Manifesto (which my AP Euro teacher read to us after the exam for laughs) and it refers to the people forming a centralized dictatorship which then redistributes the wealth. States tend to get to the dictatorship part quickly, but the goal is to redistribute the wealth and then dissolve the dictatorship. Nobody's gotten out of it though.
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Hol up lol, I barely even know what Trotskyism is. How'm I gonna stand by an ideology I barely even know the meaning of?

The two Soviet communist theories were Stalin's "Socialism in One Country" (which sought to strengthen and perfect the Soviet Union before intervening elsewhere) versus Trotsky's "World Revolution" which basically was spreading the communist revolution across the entire world, eventually abolishing the concept of the state in the process. I just used the term Trotskyist because it's a more direct way of abolishing all states.
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:56 pm

Doing it Rightland wrote:[it refers to the people forming a centralized dictatorship which then redistributes the wealth.
uhhhh that's not how I recall it in the manifesto. Are you sure you've read it?
Last edited by Kubra on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

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Doing it Rightland
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Postby Doing it Rightland » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:27 pm

Kubra wrote:
Doing it Rightland wrote:[it refers to the people forming a centralized dictatorship which then redistributes the wealth.
uhhhh that's not how I recall it in the manifesto. Are you sure you've read it?

I'm probably explaining it poorly. From what I recall, it's the "intermediate step" between a capitalist and communist economy, and handles the transition from private to collective ownership. However, it's not a single individual who's in charge. Instead, it's more of a council-type deal (I believe this was realized in the USSR via the Politburo) that assumes control of the operation. But if you recall something different than this, please let me know.
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Cosmicium
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Postby Cosmicium » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:42 am

Frasian Viceroyalty wrote:Communism is not inevitable. It is incompatible with the West, and never will be a viable option. It has failed a multitude of times and will continue to do so. The only system that has truly survived and shown its worth is that of the capitalist democracies, which continue to survive and work till this day.

As for a communist United States, I'd hope that never happens as I would probably shoot myself.


The capitalist countries of today only keep their high economic power for they practice neo-colonialism extensively. Laborers from third-world countries are exploited, forced to work long hours and underpaid to hell so you can have a $500 TV. Once the third-world countries become rich, it will stop being worthwhile for rich countries to exploit their labor and the whole consumerist system will collapse. This is why they go to great lengths to prevent them from becoming any richer (IMF and World Bank anyone?) to perpetuate the hyper-consumerist economy that fills the pockets of executives and keeps the people complacent.

Also, what democracy does it matter to the common folk when the agenda of all the parties on the ballot is to further the exploitation of the working class, if lucky maybe with a welfare state?
Last edited by Cosmicium on Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Esheaun Stroakuss
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Postby Esheaun Stroakuss » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:10 am

Lol what does immigration have to do with communism?
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Postby Petrolheadia » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:35 pm

Cosmicium wrote:
Frasian Viceroyalty wrote:Communism is not inevitable. It is incompatible with the West, and never will be a viable option. It has failed a multitude of times and will continue to do so. The only system that has truly survived and shown its worth is that of the capitalist democracies, which continue to survive and work till this day.

As for a communist United States, I'd hope that never happens as I would probably shoot myself.


The capitalist countries of today only keep their high economic power for they practice neo-colonialism extensively. Laborers from third-world countries are exploited, forced to work long hours and underpaid to hell so you can have a $500 TV. Once the third-world countries become rich, it will stop being worthwhile for rich countries to exploit their labor and the whole consumerist system will collapse. This is why they go to great lengths to prevent them from becoming any richer (IMF and World Bank anyone?) to perpetuate the hyper-consumerist economy that fills the pockets of executives and keeps the people complacent.

Also, what democracy does it matter to the common folk when the agenda of all the parties on the ballot is to further the exploitation of the working class, if lucky maybe with a welfare state?

How do the international organisations keep them down? With loan forgiveness?

Capitalism is a godsend for poor countries. They can rise to the top by gaining capital off the labor cost advantage.
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