NATION

PASSWORD

Denounced

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What do you say?

1.
21
34%
2.
3
5%
3.
5
8%
4.
21
34%
5.
11
18%
 
Total votes : 61

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:34 am

Please consider the following hypothetical:

This one is very simple. It requires you to discuss whether or not a certain action "falls within the range of morally acceptable outcomes."

Alice and Rebecca are two married mothers living in a small conservative community. Alice's kid and Rebecca's kid got into a schoolyard fight in which Alice's kid got seriously injured and required hospitalisation.

The fight was started by Alice's kid (however, Alice's kid is the one that ends up in the hospital); the two kids have been antagonistic towards each other for months and there is name-calling that flies both ways (it is unclear why the two kids don't like each other). The school sanctioned both kids after the incident and the police gave a firm warning to both parties; but no legal action has been taken (it is seen as "un-Christian" to get lawyers involved because lawyers are viewed as connected with the devil). The two kids have not talked to each other because neither side wants to talk or apologise.

Alice subsequently demanded that Rebecca's kid issue a formal apology, Rebecca supported this decision but at the very last moment decided to support her son and insist that her son will be disciplined "in a way I as a mother see fit. I won't force him to apologise if he doesn't want to." The kid never apologised, publicly or privately.

As a result of this feud, the two of them put each on Ignore and don't talk for the longest time. However, Alice finds that it is awkward and uncomfortable to have to avoid Rebecca everywhere they go (its a small town, they frequently run into each other at events). Alice begins to rethink the situation and decides that maybe it was wrong to insist on a public apology, she writes a few letters to Rebecca asking for reconciliation; the letters are unreturned.

Alice travels for a few weeks to see her eldest daughter in college; her eldest daughter recently came out of the closet and declared that she has been a homosexual all her life. Please note that this eldest daughter is NOT the same as the kid that was involved in the fight earlier; Alice has two children (one in college, one in a lower level school in the previously mentioned community). Despite coming from a conservative Christian background, Alice begrudgingly accepts this because she is a mother first.

When Alice comes back to her town, she decides that its time to forgive Rebecca. She leaves a message on Rebecca's phone saying that she hopes they can talk again and that Rebecca has been invited (as an honour) to speak at Alice's church next Sunday.

Alice did not expect Rebecca to show up but was pleasantly surprised when Rebecca did. They wave at each other and seem to become friends again. However, things immediately change as soon as the sermon begins.

Rebecca gets on the stage and after the worship songs stop, she begins her sermon. While standing on the pulpit, Rebecca blatantly denounces homosexual acts and declares that there are sinners here and everywhere. She makes pointed remarks to homosexual acts in colleges and how such actions are very very serious and unacceptable sinful conduct. The sermon also includes an attack on Hollywood culture and how standards of morality have fallen.

The entire church listens to this sermon and shouts "Amen! Amen!" as is the tradition but there is a great degree of awkwardness amongst the crowd (the Amens are a little bit more confused) because it is blatantly obvious that this is a very directed sermon targeting Alice and her eldest daughter. Alice is shocked that Rebecca would choose this sermon topic although she cannot, on grounds of her personal theology, disagree.

During the sermon, there is no direct mention of Alice or her daughter but Alice is pretty sure that this is what its really about. She realises that reconciliation will have to be postponed because her forgiving mood is gone.

...

Please consider the facts in the hypothetical and discuss whether or not you think Rebecca's actions fall within the range of morally acceptable actions or not. The way I see it, you have the following options:

1. Her actions are vindictive, rude, childish and/or socially petty but fall within the range of morally acceptable outcomes in the sense that they shouldn't lead to any legal or social ramifications

2. Her actions fall within the range of morally acceptable outcomes and they are socially appropriate, in light of Alice's prior transgressions against her, this is completely fair tit for tat

3. Her actions are morally acceptable first and foremost because I agree with the religious belief that homosexual actions are sinful; I am unsure if this was an appropriate place and venue to state this message or whether there was a better way to state it, but I cannot condemn it because I agree with the theology

4. Her actions are 100% unacceptable, in fact, the law or society should in some way punish/ostracise her for this because nothing but unacceptable harm has been caused

5. Other


Please discuss which option you chose and provide a moral justification.

I'm going to go with Option 4. This is completely mean-spirited and unnecessary. I won't go so far as to suggest legal punishment but definitely the whole community should Ignore/blacklist Rebecca for some time. I mean, she was invited to speak at a congregation by someone and then she uses this as an opportunity to attack and embarrass said person? Come now.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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The United Chinese Republic
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Postby The United Chinese Republic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:43 am

I am on the edge between Options 1 and 4, but I'll have to go with 1 for this one. Yes, it is very rude for Rebecca to do such a thing in Alice's perspective, but you cannot necessarily prove it is because of Alice's daughter - maybe Rebecca is simply anti-gay. Alice and Rebecca can talk things through, after all Alice was wanting to forgive in the first place, and maybe Rebecca could apologise as well. Once again I am very on the edge with this one since if Rebecca is really doing this to spite Alice, then reconciliation should really be postponed.
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Postby Anglomir » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:48 am

5. There should've have been some legal ramification for Alice's son being hospitalised by Rebecca's son, thats serious assault. Yes, I am aware they're children. The police need to get involved and at least get the name on record as a scare tactic for Rebecca's son if nothing else, and I think it'd be the schools responsibility to do that - that way Alice has nothing to apologise for, and its completely the other way around. If Rebecca then goes on to do this... well, its nigh defamation, I'd say option 4, but considering the kid in this scenario has already been dealt with, you probably quit while you're ahead and take option 1.
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:39 am

1. Her actions are vindictive, rude, childish and/or socially petty but fall within the range of morally acceptable outcomes in the sense that they shouldn't lead to any legal or social ramifications
This is the option I choose. The church is holy and she's disrespecting it by bringing an argument into it, but she also didn't directly mention anyone specific.
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The Grims
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Postby The Grims » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:46 am

Anglomir wrote:5. There should've have been some legal ramification for Alice's son being hospitalised by Rebecca's son, thats serious assault. Yes, I am aware they're children. The police need to get involved and at least get the name on record as a scare tactic for Rebecca's son if nothing else, and I think it'd be the schools responsibility to do that - that way Alice has nothing to apologise for, and its completely the other way around..


Agreed. Rebecca should be grateful and feel indebted, not vindicative. Alice should respond by asking the police to investigate ir the earlier attack on her family was in fact a hate crime.

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Montbellia
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Postby Montbellia » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:59 am

I chose 1 because even though I think calling gays sinners and being so rude in a church is morally reprehensible, it isn’t against the law and I don’t believe that it should be.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:03 am

The Grims wrote:
Anglomir wrote:5. There should've have been some legal ramification for Alice's son being hospitalised by Rebecca's son, thats serious assault. Yes, I am aware they're children. The police need to get involved and at least get the name on record as a scare tactic for Rebecca's son if nothing else, and I think it'd be the schools responsibility to do that - that way Alice has nothing to apologise for, and its completely the other way around..


Agreed. Rebecca should be grateful and feel indebted, not vindicative. Alice should respond by asking the police to investigate ir the earlier attack on her family was in fact a hate crime.

^Yes, this one.
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:06 am

This is oddly specific and (for you) oddly mundane. Have names been changed to protect the innocent?
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:15 am

The New California Republic wrote:
The Grims wrote:
Agreed. Rebecca should be grateful and feel indebted, not vindicative. Alice should respond by asking the police to investigate ir the earlier attack on her family was in fact a hate crime.

^Yes, this one.


Trouble is we're told this is a small, very conservative community. The police that would investigate were probably going 'amen!' With all the others.

How seriously do you think the complaint would be handled?
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Postby The New California Republic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:21 am

Caracasus wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:^Yes, this one.


Trouble is we're told this is a small, very conservative community. The police that would investigate were probably going 'amen!' With all the others.

How seriously do you think the complaint would be handled?

Go to the FBI. They can handle crimes related to children, especially if local law enforcement have been "corrupted" by ulterior motives.
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Postby Bun Queen » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:31 am

I would go for number 1 while her sermon was childish and rude towards Alice and her daughter. I don't think legal action should taken I'm sure both women can "try" to talk to each other like reasonable adults.

But, if that doesn't work then Alice may have to leave that town.
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:38 am

I agree with those who say option 5. It's not too late to report the attack on Alice's son as a possible hate crime (I assume there are records of his injuries), considering Rebecca's later vindictiveness and unacceptable behaviour.

There should be legal ramifications for the son's actions (even if it's just his name on record as a young offender). Whatever friendship Alice had with Rebecca is pretty much unsalvageable after Rebecca's actions.

Alice and her family should probably go to a different church, perhaps one where they don't applaud hate-speak.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The United Chinese Republic
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Postby The United Chinese Republic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:48 am

The Grims wrote:
Anglomir wrote:5. There should've have been some legal ramification for Alice's son being hospitalised by Rebecca's son, thats serious assault. Yes, I am aware they're children. The police need to get involved and at least get the name on record as a scare tactic for Rebecca's son if nothing else, and I think it'd be the schools responsibility to do that - that way Alice has nothing to apologise for, and its completely the other way around..


Agreed. Rebecca should be grateful and feel indebted, not vindicative. Alice should respond by asking the police to investigate ir the earlier attack on her family was in fact a hate crime.

On "earlier attack on her family", are you referring to the hospitalisation or the denouncement in the sermon? Since if it were the hospitalisation, it was way before Alice's daughter came out.
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Postby Diopolis » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:49 am

Other. Denounce Rebecca for she-preaching.
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Frachen
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Postby Frachen » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:50 am

Diopolis wrote:Other. Denounce Rebecca for she-preaching.

Agreed
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Postby Diopolis » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:53 am

Another thing is why was the fight between boys handled by the women? Boys get in fights and if it goes to far their fathers need to be the responsible parties.
Last edited by Diopolis on Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Grims
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Postby The Grims » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:54 am

The United Chinese Republic wrote:
The Grims wrote:
Agreed. Rebecca should be grateful and feel indebted, not vindicative. Alice should respond by asking the police to investigate ir the earlier attack on her family was in fact a hate crime.

On "earlier attack on her family", are you referring to the hospitalisation or the denouncement in the sermon? Since if it were the hospitalisation, it was way before Alice's daughter came out.


Thr physical attack. Since she explicitly declared she had been a lesbian all her life it is quite possible that her classmates knew way before her mom. It would also explain Rebeccas reluctance to properly punish her kid for inflicting serious bodily harm on another.

Worth an Investigation.
Last edited by The Grims on Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby The United Chinese Republic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:55 am

The Grims wrote:
The United Chinese Republic wrote:On "earlier attack on her family", are you referring to the hospitalisation or the denouncement in the sermon? Since if it were the hospitalisation, it was way before Alice's daughter came out.


Thr physical attack. Since she explicitly declared she had been a lesbian all her life it is quite possible that her classmates knew way before her mom. It would also explain Rebeccas reluctance to properly punish her kid for inflicting serious bodily harm on another.

Worth an Investigation.

I agree that it would warrant an investigation, but I still have doubts that the bullying was a hate crime.
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Postby Toaslandia » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:57 am

I'll have to go for 4 and try and file a restraining order against Rebecca because this seems like harassment.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:58 am

The United Chinese Republic wrote:
The Grims wrote:
Thr physical attack. Since she explicitly declared she had been a lesbian all her life it is quite possible that her classmates knew way before her mom. It would also explain Rebeccas reluctance to properly punish her kid for inflicting serious bodily harm on another.

Worth an Investigation.

I agree that it would warrant an investigation, but I still have doubts that the bullying was a hate crime.

We don't know why the attack took place to begin with. It might have been started by Alice's son.
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Postby Frachen » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:59 am

Diopolis wrote:Another thing is why was the fight between boys handled by the women? Boys get in fights and if it goes to far their fathers need to be the responsible parties.

Agreed
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:00 am

The United Chinese Republic wrote:
The Grims wrote:
Thr physical attack. Since she explicitly declared she had been a lesbian all her life it is quite possible that her classmates knew way before her mom. It would also explain Rebeccas reluctance to properly punish her kid for inflicting serious bodily harm on another.

Worth an Investigation.

I agree that it would warrant an investigation, but I still have doubts that the bullying was a hate crime.

That's why there needs to be an investigation.

If it turns out that the boy knew before the girl's mother, and he -- because his own mother has inculcated him with her anti-LGBT+ views -- committed the attack for that reason, it could well be a hate crime.

If not it's still a violent attack that hospitalised another child, and there should be consequences (even if it's just a police officer having a stern word with him)
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:01 am

Frachen wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Another thing is why was the fight between boys handled by the women? Boys get in fights and if it goes to far their fathers need to be the responsible parties.

Agreed

Next time IM writes a fundamentalist Christian scenario, maybe he should consult one.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:09 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
The United Chinese Republic wrote:I agree that it would warrant an investigation, but I still have doubts that the bullying was a hate crime.

That's why there needs to be an investigation.

If it turns out that the boy knew before the girl's mother, and he -- because his own mother has inculcated him with her anti-LGBT+ views -- committed the attack for that reason, it could well be a hate crime.

If not it's still a violent attack that hospitalised another child, and there should be consequences (even if it's just a police officer having a stern word with him)


This is an interesting direction
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Postby Purpelia » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:18 am

I am utterly confused by the entire situation. I mean:
1. Why didn't she take this woman and her child to court in the first place? Surely this is one situation where the justice system could be leveraged.
2. Why would she ask for an apology from a monster that caused heavy bodily harm to another human? That's as deluded as asking Hitler to make sure your shower water is the right temperature.
3. Why would she ever forgive someone like that? Ever? Her monster of a child hurt her child. That is unforgivable.
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