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Is vilification of duties the problem?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What do you think was the shooting justified?

Yes
22
55%
No
18
45%
 
Total votes : 40

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Gig em Aggies
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Is vilification of duties the problem?

Postby Gig em Aggies » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:04 pm

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/paren ... li=BBnbcA1

in short a shooting occurred at a mall in Alabama and most people there that day ran away from the gunfire except for EJ Bradford Jr who pulled out his personal registered firearm and ran toward the gunfire to protect the people in the mall no less then a few seconds later a responding unnamed Hoover PD officer shot Bradford three times assuming he was involved in the shooting somehow after the death of Bradford, officers found out he was not part of the shooting. Now his family want to file a civil suit against the city of Hoover over the death of there son who they said was murdered.


My OP: the one thing I consistently see in these incidents is that the families of the deceased cant keep there mouths shut and eyes open. Here they are bitching that the officer murdered there son and now there vilifying him when the Alabama AG as well as the Hoover PD said he acted well within regulations. there lawyer Benjamin Crump is falsely stating "The police officer in less than two seconds made a judgment call that he saw a black man, he saw a gun, he concluded that he's … a criminal. And he shot [him] in the back." even the FBI stated they found no evidence to open up a civil rights investigation into Bradford's death. This comes into question as to why civilians still don't understand that any LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) has only a split second to make a choice when confronted with a deadly situation such as a shooting inside of a public place such as a mall. Furthermore is it really a problem between the police and the community or is it really a problem between the communities ignorance and the police?
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:56 pm

It's obvious that the officer was in a position where he had to make a snap decision. However, why should that mean that nothing should happen to him? A lot of people, myself included, are pretty sick of cops making mistakes, even honest ones, and then skipping off merrily into the sunset. The truth is that he killed an innocent person. It was an easy mistake to make but that doesn't mean he should just get a back pat and be sent on his way. A man is dead and there needs to be some kind of reckoning. If you or I killed someone mistakenly, we'd be rightly held accountable but this same standard doesn't exist for police. It's a hideous double standard that damages relations between the community and the police and gives ammunition to the cop haters.

I don't blame the family one bit for seeking justice.
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Yusseria
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Postby Yusseria » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:01 pm

Scomagia wrote:It's obvious that the officer was in a position where he had to make a snap decision. However, why should that mean that nothing should happen to him? A lot of people, myself included, are pretty sick of cops making mistakes, even honest ones, and then skipping off merrily into the sunset. The truth is that he killed an innocent person. It was an easy mistake to make but that doesn't mean he should just get a back pat and be sent on his way. A man is dead and there needs to be some kind of reckoning. If you or I killed someone mistakenly, we'd be rightly held accountable but this same standard doesn't exist for police. It's a hideous double standard that damages relations between the community and the police and gives ammunition to the cop haters.

I don't blame the family one bit for seeking justice.

this is pretty much my feeling on the matter. mistakes should have consequences, especially when that mistake means killing a hero.
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Andsed
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Postby Andsed » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:02 pm

While I understand why the cops shot him and that it was an accident punishment still needs to be handed down. Maybe not firing the cop but he should be given further training along with some disciplinary action and compensation should be paid to the family.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:23 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Scomagia wrote:It's obvious that the officer was in a position where he had to make a snap decision. However, why should that mean that nothing should happen to him? A lot of people, myself included, are pretty sick of cops making mistakes, even honest ones, and then skipping off merrily into the sunset. The truth is that he killed an innocent person. It was an easy mistake to make but that doesn't mean he should just get a back pat and be sent on his way. A man is dead and there needs to be some kind of reckoning. If you or I killed someone mistakenly, we'd be rightly held accountable but this same standard doesn't exist for police. It's a hideous double standard that damages relations between the community and the police and gives ammunition to the cop haters.

I don't blame the family one bit for seeking justice.

this is pretty much my feeling on the matter. mistakes should have consequences, especially when that mistake means killing a hero.

We've seen this problem in other circumstances with a similarly unjust result. SWAT teams have made some pretty stupendous fuckups, such as breaking into the wrong house and killing or maiming the occupants. The result, predictably, is "Sorry, wrong address". There is a very real accountability problem. Here's an example:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1
And another:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 0895356839

One thing that might help is if the investigations into these incidents are conducted by a third party. It strikes me as incredibly dubious to have these kinds of incidents investigated by the friends and colleagues of the police involved.
Last edited by Scomagia on Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:29 pm

To a non-American it seems pretty obvious that that is what is going to happen.

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Yusseria
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Postby Yusseria » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:30 pm

Scomagia wrote:
Yusseria wrote:this is pretty much my feeling on the matter. mistakes should have consequences, especially when that mistake means killing a hero.

We've seen this problem in other circumstances with a similarly unjust result. SWAT teams have made some pretty stupendous fuckups, such as breaking into the wrong house and killing or maiming the occupants. The result, predictably, is "Sorry, wrong address". There is a very real accountability problem. Here's an example:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1
And another:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 0895356839

One thing that might help is if the investigations into these incidents are conducted by a third party. It strikes me as incredibly dubious to have these kinds of incidents investigated by the friends and colleagues of the police involved.

yeah. having a neutral and independent law firm investigate these things would be preferable.
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Yusseria
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Postby Yusseria » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:31 pm

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:To a non-American it seems pretty obvious that that is what is going to happen.

no one cares.
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:40 pm

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:To a non-American it seems pretty obvious that that is what is going to happen.


I wonder how many months of paid vacation he's gonna get.
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Scomagia
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Postby Scomagia » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:44 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Scomagia wrote:We've seen this problem in other circumstances with a similarly unjust result. SWAT teams have made some pretty stupendous fuckups, such as breaking into the wrong house and killing or maiming the occupants. The result, predictably, is "Sorry, wrong address". There is a very real accountability problem. Here's an example:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1
And another:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 0895356839

One thing that might help is if the investigations into these incidents are conducted by a third party. It strikes me as incredibly dubious to have these kinds of incidents investigated by the friends and colleagues of the police involved.

yeah. having a neutral and independent law firm investigate these things would be preferable.

It would at least ease some of the concern. It's frankly preposterous to think that a person's friends and colleagues are going to investigate them fairly. My friends are a pretty upright, moral bunch but if they had to investigate me...well, let's say I wouldn't be very concerned about the outcome.
"The Universe has as many different centers as there are living beings in it. Each of us is the center of the Universe, and that Universe is shattered when they hiss at you, 'You are under arrest.'"-Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
Cry about "gotchas".
Build pathetic strawmen of your opposition.
Cry about "bullying".
Shift the goalposts.
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Prusenreich
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Postby Prusenreich » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:46 pm

I think it was the fact that he had A GUN at the scene of a shooting not his skin color
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:47 pm

Yeah, why don't the survivors of the people killed by the police for being black just shut the fuck up and stop trying to hold the police accountable? We need to stop vilifying the police when they kill innocent people and get away with it.

Fucking gods, what a load of shit.
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Postby Andsed » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:47 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Scomagia wrote:We've seen this problem in other circumstances with a similarly unjust result. SWAT teams have made some pretty stupendous fuckups, such as breaking into the wrong house and killing or maiming the occupants. The result, predictably, is "Sorry, wrong address". There is a very real accountability problem. Here's an example:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1
And another:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 0895356839

One thing that might help is if the investigations into these incidents are conducted by a third party. It strikes me as incredibly dubious to have these kinds of incidents investigated by the friends and colleagues of the police involved.

yeah. having a neutral and independent law firm investigate these things would be preferable.

Agreed.

Prusenreich wrote:I think it was the fact that he had A GUN at the scene of a shooting not his skin color

Who said anything about skin color?
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:53 pm

Prusenreich wrote:I think it was the fact that he had A GUN at the scene of a shooting not his skin color

So when there's a shooting, people with guns should...lie down on the ground with their hands on their head? The fuck is the point of the right to self defence and a right to bear arms if the police will kill you for exercising them?
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What do we have that they should want?
We have a wall to work upon!
We have work and they have none
And our work is never done
My children, my children
And the war is never won
The enemy is poverty
And the wall keeps out the enemy
And we build the wall to keep us free
That's why we build the wall
We build the wall to keep us free
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:07 pm

If you're exchanging gunfire with other people, or you've got your gun out and are about to fire it at someone, it's not that weird for a police officer to think you're a threat.

"Got your gun out and are about to fire it at someone" does not mean reaching into your jacket. It does not mean holding some random object that isn't a gun. But when you are actually about to shoot someone, that's a different kettle of fish. Even if you pulled your gun for a legitimate reason, that might not be immediately obvious to a police officer who just arrived on the scene.

EDIT: I actually don't have a problem with some compensation to the family as sort of an "Oops, sorry, our mistake" thing.
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Yusseria
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Postby Yusseria » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:23 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Prusenreich wrote:I think it was the fact that he had A GUN at the scene of a shooting not his skin color

So when there's a shooting, people with guns should...lie down on the ground with their hands on their head? The fuck is the point of the right to self defence and a right to bear arms if the police will kill you for exercising them?

this is kind of the point. this is the second instance i know of where a hero who stopped a mass shooting ended up being mistakenly killed by police. it needs to end.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:49 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Ifreann wrote:So when there's a shooting, people with guns should...lie down on the ground with their hands on their head? The fuck is the point of the right to self defence and a right to bear arms if the police will kill you for exercising them?

this is kind of the point. this is the second instance i know of where a hero who stopped a mass shooting ended up being mistakenly killed by police. it needs to end.

And the only way it can end is if police officers are given magic psychic powers, random would be heroes start wearing IFF tags or people stop playing hero and let the police do their jobs.

Out of the 3 only one is reasonable, likely or practical.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:50 pm

Andsed wrote:While I understand why the cops shot him and that it was an accident punishment still needs to be handed down. Maybe not firing the cop but he should be given further training along with some disciplinary action and compensation should be paid to the family.

Suspended without pay sounds like enough punishment
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:55 pm

Purpelia wrote:
Yusseria wrote:this is kind of the point. this is the second instance i know of where a hero who stopped a mass shooting ended up being mistakenly killed by police. it needs to end.

And the only way it can end is if police officers are given magic psychic powers, random would be heroes start wearing IFF tags or people stop playing hero and let the police do their jobs.

Out of the 3 only one is reasonable, likely or practical.

You missed the best option.

Disarm the police.


Thermodolia wrote:
Andsed wrote:While I understand why the cops shot him and that it was an accident punishment still needs to be handed down. Maybe not firing the cop but he should be given further training along with some disciplinary action and compensation should be paid to the family.

Suspended without pay sounds like enough punishment

There's some parts of the world where you get put to death for shooting innocent people, but yeah, suspension without pay is also technically a punishment.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm.
What do we have that they should want?
We have a wall to work upon!
We have work and they have none
And our work is never done
My children, my children
And the war is never won
The enemy is poverty
And the wall keeps out the enemy
And we build the wall to keep us free
That's why we build the wall
We build the wall to keep us free
We build the wall to keep us free

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:01 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Purpelia wrote:And the only way it can end is if police officers are given magic psychic powers, random would be heroes start wearing IFF tags or people stop playing hero and let the police do their jobs.

Out of the 3 only one is reasonable, likely or practical.

You missed the best option.

Disarm the police.


Thermodolia wrote:Suspended without pay sounds like enough punishment

There's some parts of the world where you get put to death for shooting innocent people, but yeah, suspension without pay is also technically a punishment.

For manslaughter? I don’t think any place outside of the Middle East executes people for manslaughter, a few years in prison is most likely
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Andsed
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Postby Andsed » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:05 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Andsed wrote:While I understand why the cops shot him and that it was an accident punishment still needs to be handed down. Maybe not firing the cop but he should be given further training along with some disciplinary action and compensation should be paid to the family.

Suspended without pay sounds like enough punishment

It is a good start but along with this I do think the family should be compensated.
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Ok lets get back on topic so we don´t get this thread locked thanks to talking about my church windmill dancing.
Andsed is not legally responsible for any injuries that may occur if you take this seriously and somehow get a trebuchet and try to fling yourself into a plane. You fucking dumbass
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Sorry my mind is always in the gutter no it lives in gutter my mind is fuckin called pennywise it is in the gutter so much.
How does one outsource racism? Do you like get an Indian guy to call people and call them racial slurs?

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Gig em Aggies
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Postby Gig em Aggies » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:09 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:You missed the best option.

Disarm the police.



There's some parts of the world where you get put to death for shooting innocent people, but yeah, suspension without pay is also technically a punishment.

For manslaughter? I don’t think any place outside of the Middle East executes people for manslaughter, a few years in prison is most likely

plus disarming the police would not only be the most idiotic choice ever made it would harm civilians even further so I think Ifreann should rethink that posting.
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The Galactic Liberal Democracy
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Postby The Galactic Liberal Democracy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:14 pm

The guy had good intentions, but this raises the point that you should not rush towards a gunman if avoidable. The lack of confidence in the police is the problem, but the fear is well founded. Lately, the police in certain states have not been showing much proof of their effectiveness and instances of unwarranted attacks against innocents. It’s not that it hasn’t happened before historically. The concern is that very little action is being taken to stop violent criminals before the act and the police need to regulate themselves more. Also, the mindset that you can handle everything by yourself is problematic because it stops the police from doing their job. If more people had responded the same way, there would be even more unnecessary deaths. The potential of making it worse is equal to that if actually resolving the situation.

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Postby Aclion » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:30 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Prusenreich wrote:I think it was the fact that he had A GUN at the scene of a shooting not his skin color

So when there's a shooting, people with guns should...lie down on the ground with their hands on their head?

Get to a hiding place, block it and if the shooter finds you shoot him.

Ifreann wrote:The fuck is the point of the right to self defence and a right to bear arms if the police will kill you for exercising them?

Being in a mass shooting and getting shot by police is still much less likely than being in a mass shooting, which itself is much less likely than being in some other situation where a gun will save your life.
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Postby Bombadil » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:10 pm

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:To a non-American it seems pretty obvious that that is what is going to happen.


That is because you do not value freedom, better everyone shoots each other every day than let the terrorists win.
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