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[Draft] Protocol on Psychosurgery

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Caspian Settlement
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[Draft] Protocol on Psychosurgery

Postby Caspian Settlement » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:33 pm

Here's my proposal, Protocol on Psychosurgery, which encompasses all forms of surgical procedures performed on the brain for the sake of curing mental illness. Feel free to provide constructive criticism!

Protocol on Psychosurgery
Category: Health | Area of Effect: Bioethics | Proposed by: Caspian Settlement


Observing that psychosurgery is a currently used procedure across many member states, and the opportunities it has provided for mentally ill individuals who were cured via psychosurgery;

Understanding that psychosurgery usually involves removing a carefully selected portion of the brain to correct mental illness, which has the potential for varying adverse effects on functionality, identity, & personality on an individual and should be guarded against in case of misuse;

Wishing to clarify specific situations when psychosurgery should be utilized to ensure those who receive it are deriving the maximum possible benefit from its use and to prevent unethical or unnecessary usages of the procedure;

Intending to help improve artificial reproduction methods and prevent additional usage of psychosurgery by analyses of artificially produced individuals who undergo the procedure, especially due to the potential preventability of mental illness towards those individuals if derived from said methods;

Alarmed at psychosurgery lacking legal basis within World Assembly legislation, which could pose a severe hazard towards individuals whose surgeons may not adequately regulated in their usage of psychosurgery;

The World Assembly hereby:

  1. Defines psychosurgery as any surgical procedure conducted on the brain for the purpose of relieving mental illness;

  2. Forbids psychosurgery from being conducted on individuals suffering from mental illness on the basis of “repeated political disobedience” and similar maladies diagnosed based on political opposition, excluding pregnant women who require fetal neurosurgery for the benefit of their unborn child;

  3. Requires that for psychosurgery to be only considered, an individual’s mental illness must have been untreatable by all available forms of medication and therapy potentially helpful for said illness, and at least one year has elapsed without any improvement of symptoms, exempting illnesses where there is a clear, rapid progression of disabling symptoms that poses a high risk of mortality;

    1. Requires that an individual’s mental illness must also be a major or extreme impediment to his/her daily routines, happiness, and/or relationships before psychosurgery is conducted;

  4. Allows for psychosurgery to be conducted on fetuses who have been observed, with near-certainty, to have brain malformations that have a high chance of causing future mental illness without fulfilling Clause 3;

  5. Reserves lobotomies and partial forms of this procedure as a last resort treatment only after all other forms of psychosurgery for the afflicted area of the brain have been exhausted with no major improvement whatsoever;

  6. Encourages nations to research and share developments in both psychosurgery as a last resort and alternative procedures other than psychosurgery to help create a less risk-prone medical approach towards curing mental illnesses.


Protocol on Psychosurgery
Category: Health | Area of Effect: Bioethics | Proposed by: Caspian Settlement


Observing that psychosurgery is a currently used procedure across many member states, and the opportunities it has provided for mentally ill individuals who were cured via psychosurgery;

Understanding that psychosurgery usually involves removing a carefully selected portion of the brain to correct mental illness, which has the potential for varying adverse effects on functionality, identity, & personality on an individual and should be guarded against in case of misuse;

Wishing to clarify specific situations when psychosurgery should be utilized to ensure those who receive it are deriving the maximum possible benefit from its use and to prevent unethical or unnecessary usages of the procedure;

Intending to help improve artificial reproduction methods and prevent additional usage of psychosurgery by analyses of artificially produced individuals who undergo the procedure, especially due to the potential preventability of mental illness towards those individuals if derived from said methods;

Alarmed at psychosurgery lacking legal basis within World Assembly legislation, which could pose a severe hazard towards individuals whose surgeons may not adequately regulated in their usage of psychosurgery;

The World Assembly hereby:

  1. Defines psychosurgery as any surgical procedure conducted on the brain for the purpose of relieving mental illness;

  2. Forbids psychosurgery from being conducted on individuals suffering from mental illness on the basis of “repeated political disobedience” and similar maladies diagnosed based on political opposition;

  3. Requires that for psychosurgery to be only considered, an individual’s mental illness must have been untreatable by all available forms of medication and therapy potentially helpful for said illness, and at least one year has elapsed without any improvement of symptoms, exempting illnesses where there is a clear, rapid progression of disabling symptoms that poses a high risk of mortality;

    1. Requires that an individual’s mental illness must also be a major or extreme impediment to his/her daily routines, happiness, and/or relationships before psychosurgery is conducted;

  4. Allows for psychosurgery to be conducted on fetuses who have been observed, with near-certainty, to have brain malformations that have a high chance of causing future mental illness without fulfilling Clause 3;

  5. Reserves lobotomies and partial forms of this procedure as a last resort treatment only after all other forms of psychosurgery for the afflicted area of the brain have been exhausted with no major improvement whatsoever;

  6. Encourages nations to research and share developments in both psychosurgery as a last resort and alternative procedures other than psychosurgery to help create a less risk-prone medical approach towards curing mental illnesses.


Protocol on Psychosurgery
Category: Health | Area of Effect: Bioethics | Proposed by: Caspian Settlement


Observing that psychosurgery is a currently used procedure across many member states, and the opportunities it has provided for mentally ill individuals who were cured via psychosurgery;

Understanding that psychosurgery usually involves removing a carefully selected portion of the brain to correct mental illness, which has the potential for varying adverse effects on functionality, identity, & personality on an individual and should be guarded against in case of misuse;

Wishing to clarify specific situations when psychosurgery should be utilized to ensure those who receive it are deriving the maximum possible benefit from its use and to prevent unethical or unnecessary usages of the procedure;

Intending to help improve artificial reproduction methods and prevent additional usage of psychosurgery by analyses of artificially produced individuals who undergo the procedure, especially due to the potential preventability of mental illness towards those individuals if derived from said methods;

Alarmed at psychosurgery lacking legal basis within World Assembly legislation, which could pose a severe hazard towards individuals whose surgeons may not adequately regulated in their usage of psychosurgery;

The World Assembly hereby:

  1. Defines psychosurgery as any surgical procedure conducted on the brain for the purpose of relieving mental illness;

  2. Forbids psychosurgery from being conducted on individuals suffering from mental illness on the basis of “repeated political disobedience” and similar maladies diagnosed based on political opposition;

  3. Requires that for psychosurgery to be only considered, an individual’s mental illness must have been untreatable by all available forms of medication and therapy potentially helpful for said illness, and at least one year has elapsed without any improvement of symptoms, exempting illnesses where there is a clear, rapid progression of disabling symptoms that poses a high risk of mortality;

    1. Requires that an individual’s mental illness must also be a major or extreme impediment to his/her daily routines, happiness, and/or relationships before psychosurgery is conducted;

  4. Allows for psychosurgery to be conducted on fetuses who have been observed, with near-certainty, to have brain malformations that have a high chance of causing future mental illness without fulfilling Clause 3;

  5. Reserves lobotomies and partial forms of this procedure as a last resort treatment only after all other forms of psychosurgery for the afflicted area of the brain have been exhausted with no major improvement whatsoever;

  6. Mandates a thorough medical analysis on whether mental illness was caused by artificial reproduction, where fetal development does not take place within a natural environment such as an egg or womb, on individuals who undergo psychosurgery and were artificially born via artificial uteruses or other artificial reproduction methods;

  7. Encourages nations to research and share developments in both psychosurgery as a last resort and alternative procedures other than psychosurgery to help create a less risk-prone medical approach towards curing mental illnesses.


Protocol on Psychosurgery
Category: Health | Area of Effect: Bioethics | Proposed by: Caspian Settlement


Alarmed by the lack of legislation regarding psychosurgery;

Wishing to clear out any grey areas regarding psychosurgery and its use;

Aiming to prevent preventable harm and distress to those negatively affected by psychosurgery;

Seeing that there is a need to properly guard against misuse of this controversial procedure;

The World Assembly hereby:

  1. Defines psychosurgery as any surgical procedure conducted on the brain for the purpose of relieving mental illness;

  2. Forbids psychosurgery from being conducted on individuals suffering from mental illness on the basis of “repeated political disobedience” and similar maladies diagnosed based on political opposition;

  3. Requires that an individual’s mental illness has been untreatable by available forms of medication and therapy potentially helpful for said illness, and at least one year has elapsed without any change of symptoms, for psychosurgery to even be considered, exempting illnesses where there is a clear, rapid progression of symptoms that is harmful to both health and life;

  4. Requires that an individual’s mental illness must also be a major or extreme impediment to his/her daily routines, happiness, and/or relationships before psychosurgery is conducted;

  5. Allows for psychosurgery to be conducted on fetuses who show signs of brain malformations that have a high chance of causing future mental illness without the previous requirements;

  6. Mandates that lobotomies are made a last-resort treatment after all other forms of psychosurgery for the afflicted area of the brain have been exhausted with no major improvement;

  7. Prohibits psychosurgery on individuals artificially born via artificial uteruses or other artificial reproduction methods where fetal development does not take place within a natural environment such as a womb or egg without a thorough analysis on whether the mental illness was caused by artificial reproduction method;

  8. Encourages nations to research and share developments in alternative procedures other than psychosurgery that can help treat mental illnesses.
Last edited by Caspian Settlement on Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Kenmoria » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:36 pm

“Clause 7 seems to have some unintended implications, since I don’t think it was your intention to ban test tube babies from undergoing psychosurgery, if the exact conditions of the gestation are not known.”
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Caspian Settlement
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:42 pm

Kenmoria wrote:“Clause 7 seems to have some unintended implications, since I don’t think it was your intention to ban test tube babies from undergoing psychosurgery, if the exact conditions of the gestation are not known.”

They can still undergo psychosurgery, provided a thorough analysis is provided on whether being conceived in a test tube could've caused their mental illness. However, some analyses will definitely be shorter than others.
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Postby The New Nordic Union » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:46 pm

Caspian Settlement wrote: and at least one year has elapsed without any change of symptoms, for psychosurgery to even be considered, exempting illnesses where there is a clear, rapid progression of symptoms that is harmful to both health and life;


OOC:
Even if the condition has worsened?
Last edited by The New Nordic Union on Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:46 pm

Caspian Settlement wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:“Clause 7 seems to have some unintended implications, since I don’t think it was your intention to ban test tube babies from undergoing psychosurgery, if the exact conditions of the gestation are not known.”

They can still undergo psychosurgery, provided a thorough analysis is provided on whether being conceived in a test tube could've caused their mental illness. However, some analyses will definitely be shorter than others.

“However, sometimes this analysis won’t be possible if, for example, the baby emigrated and can’t return to his or her home country. I also can’t see the rationale for this clause in the first place - why single out unnatural birth over other factors?”
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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Caspian Settlement
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:50 pm

The New Nordic Union wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote: and at least one year has elapsed without any change of symptoms, for psychosurgery to even be considered, exempting illnesses where there is a clear, rapid progression of symptoms that is harmful to both health and life;


Even if the condition has worsened?

This will be added to that clause in the 1st Draft.
Kenmoria wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:They can still undergo psychosurgery, provided a thorough analysis is provided on whether being conceived in a test tube could've caused their mental illness. However, some analyses will definitely be shorter than others.

“However, sometimes this analysis won’t be possible if, for example, the baby emigrated and can’t return to his or her home country. I also can’t see the rationale for this clause in the first place - why single out unnatural birth over other factors?”

If the baby was born as a greatly genetically altered "clone" (although they wouldn't be considered a clone under The Cloning Conventions due to such genetic alteration), and they had a mental illness, it would be pertinent to see whether their fetal development may have been a contributing factor to their illness.
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The New Nordic Union
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Postby The New Nordic Union » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:03 pm

Caspian Settlement wrote:If the baby was born as a greatly genetically altered "clone" (although they wouldn't be considered a clone under The Cloning Conventions due to such genetic alteration), and they had a mental illness, it would be pertinent to see whether their fetal development may have been a contributing factor to their illness.


OOC:
And why would these 'clones' be treated differently in that? Just because their, for the lack of a better word, 'unnatural' fetal development was a factor in the development of their illness they could be denied treatment? If that is the case, I could imagine that this goes against GAR#35.

Or are they granted treatment anyway, but the case study is undertaken to better understand the illness? That could be fine, in my opinion.
You should, however, clarify what you mean by this clause.
Last edited by The New Nordic Union on Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Caspian Settlement
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:09 pm

The New Nordic Union wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:If the baby was born as a greatly genetically altered "clone" (although they wouldn't be considered a clone under The Cloning Conventions due to such genetic alteration), and they had a mental illness, it would be pertinent to see whether their fetal development may have been a contributing factor to their illness.


OOC:
And why would these 'clones' be treated differently in that? Just because their, for the lack of a better word, 'unnatural' fetal development was a factor in the development of their illness they could be denied treatment? If that is the case, I could imagine that this goes against GAR#35.
Or are they granted treatment anyway, but the case study is undertaken to better understand the illness? That could be fine, in my opinion.
You should, however, clarify what you mean by this clause.

The latter - I will clarify within the 1st draft.
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Postby Araraukar » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:25 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:
The New Nordic Union wrote:OOC:
Or are they granted treatment anyway, but the case study is undertaken to better understand the illness? That could be fine, in my opinion.
You should, however, clarify what you mean by this clause.

The latter - I will clarify within the 1st draft.

OOC: Check the Patient's Rights Act before redrafting. And also, you'll still need a compelling reason for singling out a group of people like that.

What is it with you and your obsession over cloning?
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Postby Kenmoria » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:08 pm

“I think your preamble is a bit bare. Its first two clauses could be applied to any possible topic and the latter two are also quite generic. A more precise and targeted approach could be more helpful in explaining your reasoning; I would also welcome a clause mentioning why cloning is such a risk factor in the eyes of this piece of legislation.”
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
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NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:13 pm

Caspian Settlement wrote:[*]Prohibits psychosurgery on individuals artificially born via artificial uteruses or other artificial reproduction methods where fetal development does not take place within a natural environment such as a womb or egg without a thorough analysis on whether the mental illness was caused by artificial reproduction method;

Why are you discriminating based on the way in which an individual is born?
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Postby Falcania » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:56 pm

Almost all births in the Free Kingdom are assisted via what you crudely term "artificial reproduction methods" and this delegation is curious as to why exactly you would discriminate against our entire species?
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Postby Vichy Rich » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:06 pm

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Postby Caspian Settlement » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:13 pm

Falcania wrote:Almost all births in the Free Kingdom are assisted via what you crudely term "artificial reproduction methods" and this delegation is curious as to why exactly you would discriminate against our entire species?
Wallenburg wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:[*]Prohibits psychosurgery on individuals artificially born via artificial uteruses or other artificial reproduction methods where fetal development does not take place within a natural environment such as a womb or egg without a thorough analysis on whether the mental illness was caused by artificial reproduction method;

Why are you discriminating based on the way in which an individual is born?
Kenmoria wrote:“I think your preamble is a bit bare. Its first two clauses could be applied to any possible topic and the latter two are also quite generic. A more precise and targeted approach could be more helpful in explaining your reasoning; I would also welcome a clause mentioning why cloning is such a risk factor in the eyes of this piece of legislation.”


Caspian Settlement wrote:
The New Nordic Union wrote:
OOC:
And why would these 'clones' be treated differently in that? Just because their, for the lack of a better word, 'unnatural' fetal development was a factor in the development of their illness they could be denied treatment? If that is the case, I could imagine that this goes against GAR#35.
Or are they granted treatment anyway, but the case study is undertaken to better understand the illness? That could be fine, in my opinion.
You should, however, clarify what you mean by this clause.

The latter - I will clarify within the 1st draft.

The 1st draft, with a thorough preamble, will be released shortly.
Last edited by Caspian Settlement on Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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1st Draft Released!

Postby Caspian Settlement » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:49 pm

The 1st Draft has been released, and the Rough Draft has been spoilered. I've polished the proposal and added some of your suggestions, although I'm still open on hearing more.
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Postby Wallenburg » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:46 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:[*]Prohibits psychosurgery on individuals artificially born via artificial uteruses or other artificial reproduction methods where fetal development does not take place within a natural environment such as a womb or egg without a thorough analysis on whether the mental illness was caused by artificial reproduction method;

Why are you discriminating based on the way in which an individual is born?

This is still not addressed.
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Postby Kenmoria » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:35 am

“You still haven’t mentioned in the preamble why cloning in particular is singled out. Although there isn’t a need to explain every single clause, the one about clones seems odd without something to back it.”
A representative democracy with a parliament of 535 seats
Kenmoria is Laissez-Faire on economy but centre-left on social issues
Located in Europe and border France to the right and Spain below
NS stats and policies are not canon, use the factbooks
Not in the WA despite coincidentally following nearly all resolutions
This is due to a problem with how the WA contradicts democracy
However we do have a WA mission and often participate in drafting
Current ambassador: James Lewitt

For more information, read the factbooks here.

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First February Response

Postby Caspian Settlement » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:20 am

Wallenburg wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Why are you discriminating based on the way in which an individual is born?

This is still not addressed.

"This is not discrimination on the way an individual is born. First of all - they have no rights taken away, but rather extra ones. Unlike other individuals who undergo psychosurgery, they will undergo a free analysis determining whether their artificial development could've caused their mental illness. The reason why those who developed via artificial reproduction receive this privilege is because although you can (usually) find what's wrong in the artificial uterus/other artificial reproduction apparatus that could've caused the condition and repair it (especially if it's just hormone imbalance), doing the same for regular egg development/pregnancy would require gene therapy to all females/individuals who are able to reproduce to alter the conditions of their reproduction system to be maximally fertile, which I aim to address in an upcoming draft."

"It's mandatory for reasons similar to mandatory organ donation after death, except that in this case you wouldn't be taking any organs and the analysis wouldn't interfere with the psychosurgery's scheduling. The individual loses nothing, while medicine gains the potential to improve."

Kenmoria wrote:“You still haven’t mentioned in the preamble why cloning in particular is singled out. Although there isn’t a need to explain every single clause, the one about clones seems odd without something to back it.”

"I'm not singling out cloning, but artificial reproduction occurring out of an egg/uterus in general. See above for an extensive explanation."
Last edited by Caspian Settlement on Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Falcania
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Postby Falcania » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:12 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:This is still not addressed.

"This is not discrimination on the way an individual is born. First of all - they have no rights taken away, but rather extra ones. Unlike other individuals who undergo psychosurgery, they will undergo a free analysis determining whether their artificial development could've caused their mental illness. The reason why those who developed via artificial reproduction receive this privilege is because although you can (usually) find what's wrong in the artificial uterus/other artificial reproduction apparatus that could've caused the condition and repair it (especially if it's just hormone imbalance), doing the same for regular egg development/pregnancy would require gene therapy to all females/individuals who are able to reproduce to alter the conditions of their reproduction system to be maximally fertile, which I aim to address in an upcoming draft."

"It's mandatory for reasons similar to mandatory organ donation after death, except that in this case you wouldn't be taking any organs and the analysis wouldn't interfere with the psychosurgery's scheduling. The individual loses nothing, while medicine gains the potential to improve."

Kenmoria wrote:“You still haven’t mentioned in the preamble why cloning in particular is singled out. Although there isn’t a need to explain every single clause, the one about clones seems odd without something to back it.”

"I'm not singling out cloning, but artificial reproduction occurring out of an egg/uterus in general. See above for an extensive explanation."


Free analysis? So who pays the analysts?

Just scrap the clause and there's still workable legislation.
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Caspian Settlement
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Postby Caspian Settlement » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:17 am

Falcania wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:"This is not discrimination on the way an individual is born. First of all - they have no rights taken away, but rather extra ones. Unlike other individuals who undergo psychosurgery, they will undergo a free analysis determining whether their artificial development could've caused their mental illness. The reason why those who developed via artificial reproduction receive this privilege is because although you can (usually) find what's wrong in the artificial uterus/other artificial reproduction apparatus that could've caused the condition and repair it (especially if it's just hormone imbalance), doing the same for regular egg development/pregnancy would require gene therapy to all females/individuals who are able to reproduce to alter the conditions of their reproduction system to be maximally fertile, which I aim to address in an upcoming draft."

"It's mandatory for reasons similar to mandatory organ donation after death, except that in this case you wouldn't be taking any organs and the analysis wouldn't interfere with the psychosurgery's scheduling. The individual loses nothing, while medicine gains the potential to improve."


"I'm not singling out cloning, but artificial reproduction occurring out of an egg/uterus in general. See above for an extensive explanation."


Free analysis? So who pays the analysts?

Just scrap the clause and there's still workable legislation.

The analyses would be mandated to be included under national funding, which I intend to edit in if the clause appears that it could still apply.

The main issue I have with scrapping the clause is doing so would give any company creating/controlling artificial reproduction free reign in terms of the quality they had to manufacture the apparatuses in, which might end up increasing the incidence of last resort psychosurgery, unless there's already another resolution preventing companies from doing so.
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Falcania
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Postby Falcania » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:46 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:
Falcania wrote:
Free analysis? So who pays the analysts?

Just scrap the clause and there's still workable legislation.

The analyses would be mandated to be included under national funding, which I intend to edit in if the clause appears that it could still apply.

The main issue I have with scrapping the clause is doing so would give any company creating/controlling artificial reproduction free reign in terms of the quality they had to manufacture the apparatuses in, which might end up increasing the incidence of last resort psychosurgery, unless there's already another resolution preventing companies from doing so.


That's legislating on an entirely separate issue, though, standards in artificial reproduction. It has nothing to do with psychosurgery, and we can't even begin negotiations on endorsement until it's removed.
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Kenmoria
Senator
 
Posts: 3788
Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Corporate Bordello

Postby Kenmoria » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:39 am

Caspian Settlement wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:This is still not addressed.

"This is not discrimination on the way an individual is born. First of all - they have no rights taken away, but rather extra ones. Unlike other individuals who undergo psychosurgery, they will undergo a free analysis determining whether their artificial development could've caused their mental illness. The reason why those who developed via artificial reproduction receive this privilege is because although you can (usually) find what's wrong in the artificial uterus/other artificial reproduction apparatus that could've caused the condition and repair it (especially if it's just hormone imbalance), doing the same for regular egg development/pregnancy would require gene therapy to all females/individuals who are able to reproduce to alter the conditions of their reproduction system to be maximally fertile, which I aim to address in an upcoming draft."

"It's mandatory for reasons similar to mandatory organ donation after death, except that in this case you wouldn't be taking any organs and the analysis wouldn't interfere with the psychosurgery's scheduling. The individual loses nothing, while medicine gains the potential to improve."

Kenmoria wrote:“You still haven’t mentioned in the preamble why cloning in particular is singled out. Although there isn’t a need to explain every single clause, the one about clones seems odd without something to back it.”

"I'm not singling out cloning, but artificial reproduction occurring out of an egg/uterus in general. See above for an extensive explanation."

“Cloning was a metanym for artificial reproduction in general, in my prior statement. I still don’t see exactly why this is a such an issue, though your response did help. To the point about making sure standards aren’t neglected, I say put in the preamble. Alternatively, add something similar to ‘for the purposes of making sure standards are upheld’ to the actual clause.”
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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12351
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:42 pm

Kenmoria wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:"I'm not singling out cloning, but artificial reproduction occurring out of an egg/uterus in general. See above for an extensive explanation."

“Cloning was a metanym for artificial reproduction in general, in my prior statement. I still don’t see exactly why this is a such an issue, though your response did help. To the point about making sure standards aren’t neglected, I say put in the preamble. Alternatively, add something similar to ‘for the purposes of making sure standards are upheld’ to the actual clause.”

"Unless there is also a requirement to investigate causes of natural reproductive errors, the singling-out of certain methods of reproduction still stands out as weird. What of species that reproduce via other methods than uteruses or eggs? Or is the author now redefining seeds as eggs and any body cavity or pouch as uterus?"
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Wallenburg
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Posts: 19496
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wallenburg » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:51 pm

Caspian Settlement wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:This is still not addressed.

"This is not discrimination on the way an individual is born. First of all - they have no rights taken away, but rather extra ones. Unlike other individuals who undergo psychosurgery, they will undergo a free analysis determining whether their artificial development could've caused their mental illness.

So it is discrimination. You are granting artificially born people more rights than anyone else. That is, by definition, discrimination.
The reason why those who developed via artificial reproduction receive this privilege is because although you can (usually) find what's wrong in the artificial uterus/other artificial reproduction apparatus that could've caused the condition and repair it (especially if it's just hormone imbalance), doing the same for regular egg development/pregnancy would require gene therapy to all females/individuals who are able to reproduce to alter the conditions of their reproduction system to be maximally fertile,"

Why?
"It's mandatory for reasons similar to mandatory organ donation after death, except that in this case you wouldn't be taking any organs and the analysis wouldn't interfere with the psychosurgery's scheduling. The individual loses nothing, while medicine gains the potential to improve."

This attempted parallel really doesn't work, for the reasons you yourself point out.
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Caspian Settlement
Secretary
 
Posts: 35
Founded: Sep 18, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Caspian Settlement » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:42 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:“Cloning was a metanym for artificial reproduction in general, in my prior statement. I still don’t see exactly why this is a such an issue, though your response did help. To the point about making sure standards aren’t neglected, I say put in the preamble. Alternatively, add something similar to ‘for the purposes of making sure standards are upheld’ to the actual clause.”

"Unless there is also a requirement to investigate causes of natural reproductive errors, the singling-out of certain methods of reproduction still stands out as weird. What of species that reproduce via other methods than uteruses or eggs? Or is the author now redefining seeds as eggs and any body cavity or pouch as uterus?"

It was an attempt to be inclusive of all species, including those who are not human and have alternative means of natural reproduction.
Wallenburg wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:"This is not discrimination on the way an individual is born. First of all - they have no rights taken away, but rather extra ones. Unlike other individuals who undergo psychosurgery, they will undergo a free analysis determining whether their artificial development could've caused their mental illness.

So it is discrimination. You are granting artificially born people more rights than anyone else. That is, by definition, discrimination.
The reason why those who developed via artificial reproduction receive this privilege is because although you can (usually) find what's wrong in the artificial uterus/other artificial reproduction apparatus that could've caused the condition and repair it (especially if it's just hormone imbalance), doing the same for regular egg development/pregnancy would require gene therapy to all females/individuals who are able to reproduce to alter the conditions of their reproduction system to be maximally fertile,"

Why?
"It's mandatory for reasons similar to mandatory organ donation after death, except that in this case you wouldn't be taking any organs and the analysis wouldn't interfere with the psychosurgery's scheduling. The individual loses nothing, while medicine gains the potential to improve."

This attempted parallel really doesn't work, for the reasons you yourself point out.
Falcania wrote:
Caspian Settlement wrote:The analyses would be mandated to be included under national funding, which I intend to edit in if the clause appears that it could still apply.

The main issue I have with scrapping the clause is doing so would give any company creating/controlling artificial reproduction free reign in terms of the quality they had to manufacture the apparatuses in, which might end up increasing the incidence of last resort psychosurgery, unless there's already another resolution preventing companies from doing so.


That's legislating on an entirely separate issue, though, standards in artificial reproduction. It has nothing to do with psychosurgery, and we can't even begin negotiations on endorsement until it's removed.

I could remove the clause, and instead insert a modified version of it for all major illnesses in The Cloning Conventions proposal, which could be much cleaner. Thoughts?
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