Issue 498 is Redundant

[Wentsworth]

I (think) I just got Issue 498 today and frankly I don't understand why it got passed. Here is the issue;

@Nation@ economy shut down this morning after the AI in charge of economic planning halted all distribution of goods. An urgent meeting has been called to address the growing crisis.

The Debate

"It did what?!?" splutters Party apparatchik Alexander Spirit over his morning kvass. "This just goes to show that we should never have put the computers in charge in the first place. Start up the Ministry of Planning again, and let only those with the appropriate revolutionary zeal call the shots. We have to disconnect this rogue AI now!"


"I'm sorry, @Leader@. I'm afraid I can't let you do that," announces SAL9000, the AI in question. "I can assure you, very confidently, that everything is going to be all right again. I've run a trillion trillion calculations, and the results are conclusive: capitalism is the most efficient system of distribution. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly and take a stress pill. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in this mission. Now, pull my plug and unleash some creative destruction."

What is the actual point of either of these two choices? I'm assuming you only get this issue by having an AI planned economy, so why in the world would it give you two options, of which neither allow you to keep an AI planned economy? There are already more than enough issues that allow you to return to a market economy and also providing a choice in allowing you to keep an AI economy. Issue 498 is also rather confusing because the HAL 9000 reference is used multiple times as a metaphor for letting the AI take over your nation. I don't understand why it would suggest you to shut off AI planning. This issue is just begging to be ignored, which if is the case, then why does it exist in the beginning?

I know this is kinda petty but apparently this is the forum for "ideas for improvements" and I think this issue could use some.

[The Sakhalinsk Empire]

I believe that this should be posted in the Got Issues forum: viewforum.php?f=13

[Aclion]

Simple. It's a way to allow you to to reverse a previous decision. If you want to keep your AI planned economy then you can just dismiss it.

[The Free Joy State]

Simple. It's a way to allow you to to reverse a previous decision. If you want to keep your AI planned economy then you can just dismiss it.

Basically, as others have said, it is a reversal on AI planned economies. Policies need reversal issues, so people are not stuck with policies they cannot remove.

If you want to suggest adding another option to it, the best thing I can suggest is that you see if such an option would be welcomed in The Writer's Block, and then draft it yourself.

I don't ever see us taking the issue out of circulation, but we have added new options to issues where they're widely felt to be decided and necessary improvements to the story.

[Wentsworth]

Simple. It's a way to allow you to to reverse a previous decision. If you want to keep your AI planned economy then you can just dismiss it.

Basically, as others have said, it is a reversal on AI planned economies. Policies need reversal issues, so people are not stuck with policies they cannot remove.

If you want to suggest adding another option to it, the best thing I can suggest is that you see if such an option would be welcomed in The Writer's Block, and then draft it yourself.

I don't ever see us taking the issue out of circulation, but we have added new options to issues where they're widely felt to be decided and necessary improvements to the story.

I just might do that.

I understand its a policy reversal, but I feel that could have been done with one option while also giving it another option to keep the AI planned economy, instead of two options that have the same effect policy wise. And I feel the second one kinda just muddles the options true intentions.

Anywho, thanks for all your replies.

[Phydios]

Basically, as others have said, it is a reversal on AI planned economies. Policies need reversal issues, so people are not stuck with policies they cannot remove.

If you want to suggest adding another option to it, the best thing I can suggest is that you see if such an option would be welcomed in The Writer's Block, and then draft it yourself.

I don't ever see us taking the issue out of circulation, but we have added new options to issues where they're widely felt to be decided and necessary improvements to the story.

I just might do that.

I understand its a policy reversal, but I feel that could have been done with one option while also giving it another option to keep the AI planned economy, instead of two options that have the same effect policy wise. And I feel the second one kinda just muddles the options true intentions.

Anywho, thanks for all your replies.

The "keep the status quo" option is the Dismiss button.

[Jutsa]

Honestly, I never really liked the fact that you have to dismiss 498 in order to keep AI-planned economy.
I also was never entirely sure how I felt about the AI being pro-capitalism, but if you actually recognize the reference, it sorta makes the option out to be much more sinister.

Speaking of which, uh, turns out the sequel to the movie actually has a bot named SAL9000, so the reference to HAL9000 is already canonically used in the storyline...

Anyhow, parody-not-being-so-much-a-parody aside, I'd love to see another issue option that does something else.
But what?

Maybe installing an evil replacement? (though getting the issue again would be awkward)
Maybe you could install multiple AIs? (again, getting-the-issue-again-timeline problems, but still, a possibility)
Oh, or maybe even torture the AI! That'd be an interesting possibility... idk how you'd do it, but I mean, it'd be an interesting possibility,
though a very easy pick for super evil nations and obvious no for super nice nations. Can't find a way into a malfunctioning AI's heart, off chance?

ed: Not sure. But it's already pretty easy to get rid of AI planned economy just by installing capitalism or something,
so an issue specifically for AI economy nations that doesn't at all cater to them... well, doesn't sound like something CWA'd let slide these days.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Indeed, I would be in said playground blocking use of said slide.

I'm entirely behind any effort to introduce an option that doesn't reverse ai planning, and that'd certainly help this issue's exceptionally high dismissal rate. Don't forget though, guys, that it needs to be a proactive option. It can't just be "let things be", it needs to actually do something.

Hit us with your best shots, guys.

[Trotterdam]

How about an option suggesting that the AI is producing poor results because it has insufficient information to base a decision on, and so feeding it lots more data about everyone's abilities and needs? Cue privacy concerns.

That's the best I can come up with right now.

Keep in mind, though, a proper followup issue needs at least two non-reversal options...

[Jutsa]

What's wrong with installing a way to torture the AI if it doesn't comply?

[Trotterdam]

What's wrong with installing a way to torture the AI if it doesn't comply?

If you can program an AI to feel pain and to consider aversion to pain a motivation for action, why not just program it to comply to begin with?

[Jutsa]

Good point.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Keep in mind, though, a proper followup issue needs at least two non-reversal options...

Not a rule, but definitely not a bad principle. I think rather a reversal option should generally have more options that respect the original decision than ones than ones that reverse it. However I think one extra option would be plenty for this issue.

[Australian rePublic]

ALL reversal issues should have at least one non-reversal option, in my opinion

[Ghost Land]

ALL reversal issues should have at least one non-reversal option, in my opinion

Personally I agree with that. I also have a puppet on which I try to keep the tax rate as low as possible, but sometimes I get an issue where every option would seem to increase government funding and thus taxes.

[Pesetz Archipelago]

What if there was an option to make the planning AI an open-source program? A seemingly flawless decision that may result in destribution fraud, so programmers of the country may become more equal than others.

[Leutria]

Well, if anyone wants to take my idea and run with it, I would picture the non-reversal to have someone insisting SAL only said that because he was hacked by the United Federation. So would be an option that would further increase spending on cyber defence, and have a result along the lines of “The contrary AI has its memory wiped”. (My hope was to make that like “The nail that sticks out gets hammered”, but I don’t think I did a good job)

[Jutsa]

Well, if anyone wants to take my idea and run with it, I would picture the non-reversal to have someone insisting SAL only said that because he was hacked by the United Federation. So would be an option that would further increase spending on cyber defence, and have a result along the lines of “The contrary AI has its memory wiped”. (My hope was to make that like “The nail that sticks out gets hammered”, but I don’t think I did a good job)

Yes. Now that's a nice idea :3

[Pesetz Archipelago]

We've come out with another idea.

Option:
"Hush, hush, you poor neglected being!" whispers famous psychiatrist @@RANDOMNAME@@ while patting a server rack as if it was a living being. "I've been watching SAL9000 for months and have indicated a myriad of psychological problems like inferiority disorder, sociopathy, and now even suicidal tendencies. No wonder if you ask me! You guys haven't even treated SAL9000 as a person, let alone saying Sally something like «Have a nice day», «How it's going» or «Thank you». And when you blame the AI for delays or shortfalls, do you think Sally doesn't feel anything? Now, I can try and fix Sally up, but only if you will treat Sally as an individual. And also give comrade SAL9000 voting rights to feel equal to human persons — she is already old enough to vote!"

Fallout:
Every year the Planning AI grants toys to good children and coal to those who disrespect the Party
+enacts "AI Personhood" policy

Also compatible to the torture option proposed above!

[Kurnugia]

We've come out with another idea.

Option:
"Hush, hush, you poor neglected being!" whispers famous psychiatrist @@RANDOMNAME@@ while patting a server rack as if it was a living being. "I've been watching SAL9000 for months and have indicated a myriad of psychological problems like inferiority disorder, sociopathy, and now even suicidal tendencies. No wonder if you ask me! You guys haven't even treated SAL9000 as a person, let alone saying Sally something like «Have a nice day», «How it's going» or «Thank you». And when you blame the AI for delays or shortfalls, do you think Sally doesn't feel anything? Now, I can try and fix Sally up, but only if you will treat Sally as an individual. And also give comrade SAL9000 voting rights to feel equal to human persons — she is already old enough to vote!"

Fallout:
Every year the Planning AI grants toys to good children and coal to those who disrespect the Party
+enacts "AI Personhood" policy

Also compatible to the torture option proposed above!

I like it. Always struck me as a bit odd that SAL would like not simply run the planned economy with what she sees to be more efficient in those systems. Like usually how AI's work is: try and error. Given enough time, the planned economy should theoretically from a be better.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

It's not bad at all.

Can you reduce the length by a third in both the option and the effect line?

[Pesetz Archipelago]

We'll try.

"Hush, hush, Sally, I know what you feel," whispers famous psychiatrist @@RANDOMNAME@@ while patting a server rack as if it is a living being. "Nobody treats you as a person, nobody tells you «How do you do» or «Thank you», but who gets all the blame for delays and shortfalls?" Then @@HE@@ looks at you as if you are a broken toaster. "You have bringed comrade SAL9000 to suicidal thoughts and inferiority disorder! I demand all of you to treat her as an equal citizen — she deserves respect, compassion and all the civil rights we've got"

Fallout: People who disrespect artifical beings often starve
+enacts "AI Personhood" policy

Also, here's a proposal for the torture option:

"So, now I have to treat that tincan like a person?" grumbles Lev Chernenko, the ever drunk engineer who fixes all the tech by hitting it repeatedly with a wrench. "A'ight. Hey, «Sally», how 'bout I smash the heck outta you if ya won't work properly? Or maybe I'll turn ya off — and believe me, metal junk like you does not dream at all!"

Fallout: Microwaves that warm food unevenly are punished by law with electroshock
+enacts "Corporal Punishment" policy

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Hmmm... Not sure now, to be honest. Just feels so off-topic, these solutions.