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Hypothetical: Guilty or Innocent? [REAL TRIAL REVEALED]

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Do you find Andy Guilty?

Yes
46
56%
No
36
44%
 
Total votes : 82

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Infected Mushroom
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Hypothetical: Guilty or Innocent? [REAL TRIAL REVEALED]

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:34 pm

Please consider the following hypothetical:

This is based on a real life murder trial but has been altered to make it more simplistic.

A 25-year old writer "Andy" becomes famous overnight due to the publication of his latest novel. However, the fame and the media/fan harassment becomes too much for the young sensitive author so he escapes to a small town and assumes a fake identity.

Andy quietly buys a small house and settles in for a few weeks. He becomes acquainted with his neighbour, Paul Allen and they become friends.

One morning, the police find plastic bags floating in the harbour water containing Paul Allen's chopped up body. Every part of Paul Allen was found except for the head which had gone missing. Soon after, the police arrest Andy and charge him with the murder of Paul Allen.

The police find inside Andy's house a handgun; when they ran it through with forensics and ballistics it was confirmed that a single bullet had been fired from the handgun. The police also had conclusive forensic evidence that Paul Allen was killed in Andy's house. Tools used to chop up Paul Allen were found by the garbageman and turned in to the police.

Andy's trial becomes a media %$^*storm because of the author's high profile.

Prosecution's Story:
Andy invited Paul Allen over to his house. They had a verbal disagreement of some kind. Andy pulled out the handgun and shot Paul Allen in the head. After coming to his senses, Andy took out some tools and chopped up the corpse of Paul Allen. Then he put the pieces into the bags, walked over to the nearby harbour and dumped them into the water.

Andy knew that the bullet lodged in the head was very seriously damaging evidence, so he hid the head somewhere else (who knows God where). Unfortunately for Andy, the contents of the bags did not sink, they floated instead.

Andy should be charged with murder and should never see the light of day again.

The prosecution theorises that Andy had grown to like his new quiet life under the assumed identity but that Paul Allen somehow uncovered the author's real identity and threatened to expose him. This is why Andy killed him.


Andy's Story:
Andy says that he did kill Paul Allen and he did try to dispose of the corpse but it was all 100% self defence. Andy's lawyers look up Paul Allen's history and show that he had previously been charged and convicted of armed robbery. Paul Allen was also, not long ago, involved in a very messy divorce process during which his wife alleged he had been extremely violent towards her and the kids.

Andy says that he walked into his room one day and to his absolute horror Paul Allen stood there, apparently stoned and drunk as all hell. Paul Allen shouted random, threatening obscenities at Andy and then took out Andy's handgun and threatened to shoot Andy. Andy tried to grab the gun in a brief struggle; this caused the gun to fire off a random bullet and hit Paul Allen in the head.

After realising he had killed Paul Allen in self-defence, Andy panicked. He decided not to report it to the police because he didn't trust the police and he felt the police would not believe him. So he chopped up Paul Allen's corpse over several hours, put them into bags, and then dumped them into the harbour in bags. Andy said he doesn't remember what happened to the head.

The fact that Paul Allen was "stoned and drunk as all hell" when he was killed is demonstrated by the forensic evidence.


...

During the trial, Andy was called to the stand where he explained his version of the events when examined and cross-examined. The prosecution grilled him very very hard the part where he disposed of the corpse; suggesting that someone innocent wouldn't try to hide a body. They also try to unsettle him by asking him in lots of very explicit questions regarding HOW he had chopped up the body (ex "did you start with the head?").

Andy appears visibly shaken but he stuck to his story, often saying "I don't remember."

The prosecution asked Andy why there are no prints on the guns (either his or Paul Allens). Andy said that he had wiped the entire surface of the gun on the night of the incident as part of his ill-advised efforts to conceal the incident.

The prosecution asked Andy what he did the next day when he came back to the harbour and saw that the bags were floating. Andy said "well at that point I realise that I have a serious problem. (shrugs*) I screwed it up."

During the trial, it was revealed that Andy had originally used the limited tools in his shed to cut up the corpse; he made a very big mess and many parts could not be cut through properly. He realised he needed other tools so he strolled over to Wal Mart to buy more cutting equipment and bags (the employees of Wal Mart subsequently testified at court). While cutting up the corpse, Andy drank through several bottles of liquor, being intoxicated throughout the process.

...

In the closing statements, the Prosecution says that Andy's behaviour is not consistent with that of an innocent person. Innocent people do not randomly chop up corpses because they "don't trust the police." The forensics place Paul Allen's death at Andy's house, they have Andy's gun, the tools that Andy used to chop, they have the corpse and Andy himself has admitted to the killing. It's "simple and shut, Andy is a murderer, let's move on." They suggest that Andy is a liar and its your job to convict him because guilt has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Andy's lawyers remind the jury that guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and that the prosecution has failed to do that. They don't have a credible motive for why Andy would murder Paul Allen (if there was a threat Andy would be "exposed," why didn't the rich Andy simply relocate to a new place again?). They have failed to PROVE that the killing was NOT in self-defence. There's absolutely NOTHING in the prosecution's evidence that disproves Andy's version of events which should be assumed as true in the absence thereof. Given Paul Allen's past violent history and the fact that the forensics prove that Paul Allen was stoned and drunk at the time of his death... Andy's version of events is entirely credible. If there is even the remotest realistic chance that Andy is telling the truth (and Andy's lawyers say there is more than that), it is your job to acquit him. The details and imagery of Andy cutting up a corpse may unsettle people but it has nothing to do with the actual issue of whether or not the killing was in self-defence. The fact that Andy doesn't remember everything is also normal because the event was highly highly traumatic for him. Cutting up the corpse and throwing it into a river may have been a stupid, retarded play... but it doesn't make you a murderer.

...

The following profiles for the characters involved in the hypothetical have been provided for further consideration.

Andy

Picture of Andy:

Image

One in a family of three children, Andy grew up in New York. His grandfather immigrated from Germany and started one of the largest and most powerful corporations in the United States.

Andy was raised in affluence and went to very expensive private schools. He received a Bachelor of Economics from Yale. He was consistently described by his peers as highly intelligent but a bit of a loner.

When Andy was 21, his father died in a car accident. In the will, his father passed on control of the large corporation almost entirely to his younger brother Wilson. Andy was extremely upset about this decision and became largely estranged from his family.

Soon after graduation, Andy worked for the family business but the corporate life was not for him. He retired to pursue his dream of being a full time writer. Within a few years, Andy published a large number of historical thriller novels and soon became a bestselling author.

The highly sensitive writer disliked all the attention he got and so relocated himself to a small town with a fake identity to live “a quiet life.”

When Andy was arrested on charges of murder, his brother Wilson said to reporters: “I can genuinely say that I feel much safer now. Because I have no doubt in my mind that if he had the opportunity to kill me and get away, he would.”

Wilson offered no further comment and refused to participate in the trial as a witness of any sort.

Paul Allen

Paul Allen was born in Waco, Texas. His parents divorced when he was very young and his new stepfather was an abusive and violent alcoholic. At 16 Paul Allen ran away from home to join a gang. Paul Allen was involved in a large number of crimes ranging from arson, to shoplifting, to theft and robbery. At 17 he was arrested for arson and spent several years in juvenile detention. Within weeks of his release, he was connected to an armed robbery with three other gangsters involving the use of firearms to rob a bank.

Paul Allen served five years in prison before being released; upon his release he worked for a construction company. He then married a grocer’s daughter but the relationship rapidly broke down as financial problems rained down on the family and Paul himself became heavily involved in substance abuse of all kinds. During the divorce proceedings, which soon followed, the wife made allegations that Paul Allen had been violent towards her.


...

You are a member of the jury. The only options in this legal setting is to either convict them of murder or acquit completely (there is no flexibility whatsoever, he's either a murderer or he's completely innocent). If convicted of murder, Andy will never see the light of day again. If Andy is acquitted, then Andy walks.

What decision do you reach based on the facts above? Why? Please explain.

The facts in the hypothetical are meant to be pretty clear so you can act as a juror, if there's any major area of uncertainty, please let me know and I will edit to clarify if necessary.

I'm inclined to think that its very hard to disprove the self-defence theory when there are only two people in the room. And Paul Allen comes across as the type of person to maybe violently attack. With the whole "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, I'm inclined to acquit. Everyone can look pretty guilty sometimes, chopping up a corpse is going a bit far but I can get in Andy's frame of mind.

Its very borderline but I acquit.


Alright... so its time to reveal the real case this was based on.

Based on the poll results and the discussion so far, a very very very slight majority of NSG posters would have convicted the person as Guilty.

The real case (as correctly guessed by one poster) is "Robert Durst"

The following excerpt describes the trial:

On October 9, 2001, Durst was arrested in Galveston shortly after body parts belonging to his elderly neighbor, Morris Black, were found floating in Galveston Bay. He was released on $300,000[41] bail the next day. Durst missed a court hearing on October 16 and a warrant was issued for his arrest on a charge of bail jumping. On November 30, he was caught inside a Wegmans supermarket in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, after trying to shoplift a chicken salad sandwich on pumpernickel bread, Band-Aids, and a newspaper, even though he had $500 cash in his pocket.[23][41] A police search of his rented car yielded $37,000 in cash, two guns, marijuana, Black's driver's license,[42] and directions to the Connecticut home of Gilberte Najamy, a former confidante of McCormack who had dogged Durst for years publicizing accusations he had murdered his wife.[23][43][44] Durst also used his time on the run to stalk his brother Douglas, visiting the driveway of his home in Katonah, New York, while armed.[44] Durst employed defense attorney John Waldron while he was held on charges in Pennsylvania. He was eventually extradited to Texas for trial.

Trial[edit]
In 2003, Durst was tried for the murder of Black. He employed defense attorney Dick DeGuerin and claimed self-defense; DeGuerin conducted two mock trials in preparation for the case.[45] Durst's defense team had difficulty communicating with him, so they hired psychiatrist Dr. Milton Altschuler to find out why. Altschuler spent over 70 hours examining Durst and diagnosed him with Asperger syndrome, saying, "His whole life's history is so compatible with a diagnosis of Asperger's disorder." Durst's defense team argued at trial that the diagnosis explained his behavior.[46]

Durst claimed he and Black, a cranky and confrontational loner, struggled for control of Durst's .22-caliber target pistol after Black grabbed it from its hiding place and threatened him with it. During the struggle, the pistol discharged, shooting Black in the face.[47][46] During cross-examination, Durst admitted to using a paring knife, two saws, and an axe to dismember Black's body before bagging and dumping his remains in Galveston Bay.[47] Black's head was never recovered, so prosecutors were unable to present sufficient forensic evidence to dispute Durst's account of the struggle.[45] As a result of lack of forensics, the jury acquitted Durst of murder.[48]


There is also a dramatised documentary on the case. Full video is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R_ZFcI8E5Y

^

Its worth a watch I highly recommend it.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:27 am, edited 10 times in total.

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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:07 am

Based on the evidence as presented, I'd say aquit. It's possible he did it, but I'm not certain. Thus, ethically, I can't say he's guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
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Postby Byzconia » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:15 am

This is an interesting post (makes me wonder if one could pull off a mock trial on the NS forums). I'm going to say acquit. Both stories are plausible, but I agree that the prosecution has failed to provide evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt, so I can't convict in good conscience.
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Postby Page » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:25 am

The supposed motive is extremely weak, that Paul Allen was going to expose Andy and ruin his anonymity, and that's why Andy killed him. I don't buy that. I don't see why Paul Allen would do this, except maybe for money, perhaps planning to take some papparazi pics of Andy and his house and sell them to TMZ or blackmailing Andy for money, but even if that were the case I don't think one's anonymity is so important to kill to protect, especially since Andy could just go somewhere else. If it were more than just a matter of anonymity, like if the prosecution had some sort of evidence that Paul Allen had some real dirt on Andy that would ruin his reputation or get him in legal trouble, that I might consider as a plausible motive, but as it stands the suggested motive is extremely dubious.

The biggest problem here is the missing head. I assume that if the head were found, then a forensics expert could analyze the angle at which the bullet entered and how close the gun was, which might suggest a deliberate killing or a gunshot in the heat of the struggle. But since the head is missing and the motive is weak, I would have to acquit.
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Postby The Galactic Supremacy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:27 am

One could ascertain that Andy's murder of Allen was plausible because of the forensic evidence, which is also backed by the defendant's claimed course of events. Because of his legal testimony, claiming he did so murder Allen, he is liable to such an action. However, he did so out of self-defense, and so to an extent, his action was justified, judging from Allen being a supposed threat. What can be determined to have happened beyond a reasonable doubt would be Andy's action of chopping up the body, such that was backed by his own testimony and forensic evidence. This is where Andy fails and can be punished for, willful, reckless, unlawful mutilation and disposal of Allen's body.
Last edited by The Galactic Supremacy on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Risottia » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:45 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:...Andy says that he did kill Paul Allen and he did try to dispose of the corpse but it was all 100% self defence.

So Andy admits the fact of killing Paul.

...
Andy says that he walked into his room one day and to his absolute horror Paul Allen stood there, apparently stoned and drunk as all hell. Paul Allen shouted random, threatening obscenities at Andy and then took out Andy's handgun and threatened to shoot Andy. Andy tried to grab the gun in a brief struggle; this caused the gun to fire off a random bullet and hit Paul Allen in the head.

Yet no traces of Paul's were found on the gun.

After realising he had killed Paul Allen in self-defence, Andy panicked.

This can be a mitigating circumstance for the fact of hiding a corpse, which is STILL a crime and Andy's still guilty of it, by the way.

The fact that Paul Allen was "stoned and drunk as all hell" when he was killed is demonstrated by the forensic evidence.

"Stoned and drunk" doesn't imply "was attempting to kill".

...The forensics place Paul Allen's death at Andy's house, they have Andy's gun,

Note that while Andy's traces can be found on the weapon, Paul's were NOT. This contradicts Andy's statement of the facts: Andy stated that Paul took Andy's gun. Andy is lying.

They have failed to PROVE that the killing was NOT in self-defence.

Immaterial. The FACT is that Andy killed Paul. The exonerating CIRCUMSTANCE of self-defence hasn't been proven and forensic evidence says that Andy's tale isn't completely true. It's murder.
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Postby Bombadil » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:51 am

I could see why some of the boys took him for snobby. He had a quiet way about him, a walk and a talk that just wasn't normal around here. He strolled, like a man in a park without a care or a worry in the world, like he had on an invisible coat that would shield him from this place. Yeah, I think it would be fair to say... I liked Andy from the start.
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Postby Dresderstan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:04 am

I say guilty, he seems like the type of person who'd secretly be a psychopath imo.

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:06 am

Risottia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:...Andy says that he did kill Paul Allen and he did try to dispose of the corpse but it was all 100% self defence.

So Andy admits the fact of killing Paul.

...
Andy says that he walked into his room one day and to his absolute horror Paul Allen stood there, apparently stoned and drunk as all hell. Paul Allen shouted random, threatening obscenities at Andy and then took out Andy's handgun and threatened to shoot Andy. Andy tried to grab the gun in a brief struggle; this caused the gun to fire off a random bullet and hit Paul Allen in the head.

Yet no traces of Paul's were found on the gun.

After realising he had killed Paul Allen in self-defence, Andy panicked.

This can be a mitigating circumstance for the fact of hiding a corpse, which is STILL a crime and Andy's still guilty of it, by the way.

The fact that Paul Allen was "stoned and drunk as all hell" when he was killed is demonstrated by the forensic evidence.

"Stoned and drunk" doesn't imply "was attempting to kill".

...The forensics place Paul Allen's death at Andy's house, they have Andy's gun,

Note that while Andy's traces can be found on the weapon, Paul's were NOT. This contradicts Andy's statement of the facts: Andy stated that Paul took Andy's gun. Andy is lying.

They have failed to PROVE that the killing was NOT in self-defence.

Immaterial. The FACT is that Andy killed Paul. The exonerating CIRCUMSTANCE of self-defence hasn't been proven and forensic evidence says that Andy's tale isn't completely true. It's murder.


hmmmm...

that's a good catch, I'm wondering whether or not I should add a part where Andy says he wiped the entire surface of the gun... but not the inside (so ballistics could still confirm that a shot was fired); since he decided to trash the tools he used to cut the corpse and decided to dump body parts into the water, he may have decided to wipe the gun's surface too

I mean this would definitely come up on the cross examination (but I don't think its stretching to have Andy behave that way since his overall objective in dumping the body and the cutting tools was clearly to obfuscate discovery of the problem... so wiping a gun down doesn't seem an out of character move?)

is that scientifically possible (to wipe the surface of all prints and marks, while a ballistics test using the entire gun could still reveal the result that a shot was fired)?
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Caracasus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:20 am

IM, this is one instance where you probably shouldn't simplify things for the sake of the hypothetical. I've done jury duty before - a drug smuggling trial - and there was absolutely loads of information. We practically had the suspect's entire biography.

How did the victim get into the house? What sort of time? Was the suspect friendly with the neighbour? Were they known to have the sort of late nite drinking sessions together that might lead to this?

With only the evidence here, I don't buy the self defense argument. If he'd hidden or buried the body or whatever maybe, but actually carving up a corpse? Nah.

Also you should remove the (he's innocent) part from the poll and just have yes and no.
Last edited by Caracasus on Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Caracasus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:36 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Risottia wrote:So Andy admits the fact of killing Paul.


Yet no traces of Paul's were found on the gun.


This can be a mitigating circumstance for the fact of hiding a corpse, which is STILL a crime and Andy's still guilty of it, by the way.


"Stoned and drunk" doesn't imply "was attempting to kill".


Note that while Andy's traces can be found on the weapon, Paul's were NOT. This contradicts Andy's statement of the facts: Andy stated that Paul took Andy's gun. Andy is lying.


Immaterial. The FACT is that Andy killed Paul. The exonerating CIRCUMSTANCE of self-defence hasn't been proven and forensic evidence says that Andy's tale isn't completely true. It's murder.


hmmmm...

that's a good catch, I'm wondering whether or not I should add a part where Andy says he wiped the entire surface of the gun... but not the inside (so ballistics could still confirm that a shot was fired); since he decided to trash the tools he used to cut the corpse and decided to dump body parts into the water, he may have decided to wipe the gun's surface too

I mean this would definitely come up on the cross examination (but I don't think its stretching to have Andy behave that way since his overall objective in dumping the body and the cutting tools was clearly to obfuscate discovery of the problem... so wiping a gun down doesn't seem an out of character move?)

is that scientifically possible (to wipe the surface of all prints and marks, while a ballistics test using the entire gun could still reveal the result that a shot was fired)?


Hang on, so he cuts the body up and then carefully removes any evidence that might prove that he was acting in self defense?

Yeah he's lying then I reckon.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:45 am

Caracasus wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
hmmmm...

that's a good catch, I'm wondering whether or not I should add a part where Andy says he wiped the entire surface of the gun... but not the inside (so ballistics could still confirm that a shot was fired); since he decided to trash the tools he used to cut the corpse and decided to dump body parts into the water, he may have decided to wipe the gun's surface too

I mean this would definitely come up on the cross examination (but I don't think its stretching to have Andy behave that way since his overall objective in dumping the body and the cutting tools was clearly to obfuscate discovery of the problem... so wiping a gun down doesn't seem an out of character move?)

is that scientifically possible (to wipe the surface of all prints and marks, while a ballistics test using the entire gun could still reveal the result that a shot was fired)?


Hang on, so he cuts the body up and then carefully removes any evidence that might prove that he was acting in self defense?

Yeah he's lying then I reckon.


I mean, that's one way to frame it (and it can make sense)

but the idea of cutting up the corpse and then dumping it (along with the tools) is to make the whole thing (whether murder or self-defence) "disappear" because he doesn't want to do any explaining ever to the police out of fear of being disbelieved

he could have, in a heightened hysterical state, only be thinking about his own prints on the guns

or is that also not plausible?
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:48 am

Bombadil wrote:I could see why some of the boys took him for snobby. He had a quiet way about him, a walk and a talk that just wasn't normal around here. He strolled, like a man in a park without a care or a worry in the world, like he had on an invisible coat that would shield him from this place. Yeah, I think it would be fair to say... I liked Andy from the start.


:rofl:

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Postby Caracasus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:51 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Hang on, so he cuts the body up and then carefully removes any evidence that might prove that he was acting in self defense?

Yeah he's lying then I reckon.


I mean, that's one way to frame it (and it can make sense)

but the idea of cutting up the corpse and then dumping it (along with the tools) is to make the whole thing (whether murder or self-defence) "disappear" because he doesn't want to do any explaining ever to the police out of fear of being disbelieved

he could have, in a heightened hysterical state, only be thinking about his own prints on the guns

or is that also not plausible?


Not really no. In his fear of the police not believing him he wipes the gun, removing any evidence that the victim was holding it? The whole thing looks like a post hoc story concocted by someone trying to save their arse.

This is straying pretty far out of my area of expertise, but if the gun went off at close range I'd imagine that there'd be signs on the head of the victim, and the forensics lot would probably be able to tell what angle. He's hidden the head and knows where it is cos it disproves his self defense story.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:52 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Risottia wrote:So Andy admits the fact of killing Paul.


Yet no traces of Paul's were found on the gun.


This can be a mitigating circumstance for the fact of hiding a corpse, which is STILL a crime and Andy's still guilty of it, by the way.


"Stoned and drunk" doesn't imply "was attempting to kill".


Note that while Andy's traces can be found on the weapon, Paul's were NOT. This contradicts Andy's statement of the facts: Andy stated that Paul took Andy's gun. Andy is lying.


Immaterial. The FACT is that Andy killed Paul. The exonerating CIRCUMSTANCE of self-defence hasn't been proven and forensic evidence says that Andy's tale isn't completely true. It's murder.


hmmmm...

that's a good catch, I'm wondering whether or not I should add a part where Andy says he wiped the entire surface of the gun... but not the inside (so ballistics could still confirm that a shot was fired); since he decided to trash the tools he used to cut the corpse and decided to dump body parts into the water, he may have decided to wipe the gun's surface too

I mean this would definitely come up on the cross examination (but I don't think its stretching to have Andy behave that way since his overall objective in dumping the body and the cutting tools was clearly to obfuscate discovery of the problem... so wiping a gun down doesn't seem an out of character move?)

is that scientifically possible (to wipe the surface of all prints and marks, while a ballistics test using the entire gun could still reveal the result that a shot was fired)?


Not a forensic specialist here, so, dunno. The point though is that Andy's trace were found, innit?

Also, what about the traces of the (claimed) fight on both Andy's body and Paul's remains?

I would rule out the "in-character", "seems he's likely to do X given his previous history" bits, because those are speculations about possibilities and wild guesses, not ascertained facts.
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:01 am

I'd rather let a guilty man go free than imprison an innocent one. I would vote innocent on the jury panel
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Caracasus
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Ex-Nation

Postby Caracasus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:01 am

Sorry IM, should have been clearer. Really your poll should read 'do you find Andy guilty?' Because that's the question asked.

There might for instance be people who think he is guilty, but that there isn't enough evidence to convict him.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 am

This doesn't seem well planned, which could work in Andy's favour. He could argue that he worked in a hysterical moment and in a panic
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Free Joy State
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Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Free Joy State » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:09 am

So... Andy killed a guy, chopped him up and hid the head? He also attempted to clean his prints off the murder weapon?

That really reads like attempting to hide the evidence of his crime and prevent identification of the corpse.

It's possible that a person might kill impulsively in self-defence...

To kill and then desecrate the corpse (hiding the head so it can never be discovered) -- while attempting to destroy all forensic evidence -- suggests murder.

I vote: guilty.
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Ardoki
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Ex-Nation

Postby Ardoki » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:21 am

If the head don't exist, ACQUIT!
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Caracasus
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Ex-Nation

Postby Caracasus » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:28 am

Ardoki wrote:If the head don't exist, ACQUIT!


I hadn't considered that, but yes. If the victim's head has not been found because in fact he never had a head to begin with then yes, Andy must be innocent. How can you shoot a headless man in the head?
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The Free Joy State
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Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Free Joy State » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:12 am

Caracasus wrote:
Ardoki wrote:If the head don't exist, ACQUIT!


I hadn't considered that, but yes. If the victim's head has not been found because in fact he never had a head to begin with then yes, Andy must be innocent. How can you shoot a headless man in the head?

Unless pictures or eye-witness testimony demonstrate that the victim previously had a head, which he has since lost.

That -- and the presence of the corpse-dissecting tools -- increases the likelihood that he indeed lost his head at Andy's prompting.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:15 am

Risottia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:...Andy says that he did kill Paul Allen and he did try to dispose of the corpse but it was all 100% self defence.

So Andy admits the fact of killing Paul.

...
Andy says that he walked into his room one day and to his absolute horror Paul Allen stood there, apparently stoned and drunk as all hell. Paul Allen shouted random, threatening obscenities at Andy and then took out Andy's handgun and threatened to shoot Andy. Andy tried to grab the gun in a brief struggle; this caused the gun to fire off a random bullet and hit Paul Allen in the head.

Yet no traces of Paul's were found on the gun.

After realising he had killed Paul Allen in self-defence, Andy panicked.

This can be a mitigating circumstance for the fact of hiding a corpse, which is STILL a crime and Andy's still guilty of it, by the way.

The fact that Paul Allen was "stoned and drunk as all hell" when he was killed is demonstrated by the forensic evidence.

"Stoned and drunk" doesn't imply "was attempting to kill".

...The forensics place Paul Allen's death at Andy's house, they have Andy's gun,

Note that while Andy's traces can be found on the weapon, Paul's were NOT. This contradicts Andy's statement of the facts: Andy stated that Paul took Andy's gun. Andy is lying.

They have failed to PROVE that the killing was NOT in self-defence.

Immaterial. The FACT is that Andy killed Paul. The exonerating CIRCUMSTANCE of self-defence hasn't been proven and forensic evidence says that Andy's tale isn't completely true. It's murder.

Yup, the key points that I picked up on are listed here. I'd vote to find him guilty of murder.
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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:37 am

Australian rePublic wrote:This doesn't seem well planned, which could work in Andy's favour. He could argue that he worked in a hysterical moment and in a panic


Yeah

Basically Andy and his lawyers are saying, "I wasn't thinking clearly and did a whole bunch of things in a hysterical state that may have somehow made sense at the time but now I can't quite piece it altogether exactly."

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Tasuirin
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Ex-Nation

Postby Tasuirin » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:48 am

He's admitted that he killed the guy, and the body was found brutally chopped up and in plastic bags, evidently attempting to hide the incident. Very simple logic could be used to deduce that he indeed chopped up the body. The story then can be taken in two different directions after the fact - one; he panicked and chopped up the body as a way to hide what he did in said moment of panic, or two; it was indeed part of some sick dismemberment fantasy which he wanted to engage in. I honestly think that the latter is unlikely, but the former still does not scream 'innocence'. Sure, maybe he did shoot the man in self defence, but if it really was simple self defence, digging a hole like that certainly seems to incriminate him further. Maybe he wasn't thinking straight at the time, but afterwards? Waiting for police to come and charge him with the murder instead of reporting it sooner? It's definitely not beyond reasonable doubt, but I think it's as far towards being sure of guilt that we could get in this scenario. As such, I'd lean towards guilty.
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