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The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Chris

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GnosticChristian
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The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Chris

Postby GnosticChristian » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:25 pm

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

I find Christianity immoral for substitutionary atonement as well as many others of their moral tenets.

Without the blood sacrifice of Jesus, Christianity fails as a salvific religion.

We could thump all day with passages that both support blood sacrifice as well as quote the many passages against it as shown with both types of quotes in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

Recognizing that there are many contradictory passages in scriptures, let’s ignore them all and just look at the morality of substitutionary atonement.

Scriptures tell us that to perfect our wisdom, we must get out of the Christian theology. I think that those passages are asking us to confirm our thinking with analogies that do not include Christian dogma.

With that in mind, I offer an analogy for discussion.

Scriptures say we are all children of God.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended?

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. Do you agree that to abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat is immoral?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:43 pm

GnosticChristian wrote:Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.


Yeah, that's one of the things I dislike in Christian teachings.
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Postby Xmara » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:52 pm

Didn’t you just post this exact same thing in the Christian discussion thread?
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:06 pm

This belongs in the CDT.
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:09 pm

The Sherpa Empire wrote:
GnosticChristian wrote:Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.


Yeah, that's one of the things I dislike in Christian teachings.

Yes that and the concept of 'original sin' doesn't leave much room for personal responsibility.
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Postby Benuty » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:13 pm

Genivaria wrote:
The Sherpa Empire wrote:
Yeah, that's one of the things I dislike in Christian teachings.

Yes that and the concept of 'original sin' doesn't leave much room for personal responsibility.

Ehh...that depends unless you are one of those branches that believes in "once saved, always saved". I kind of agree with the Mormons that you have to be truly reprehensible to be cast out from all of creation, and basically rot in the void (what they call outer darkness). That said I believe that the point of salvation is to not sin anymore so personal responsibility is part of that.
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Postby Benuty » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:14 pm

Genivaria wrote:This belongs in the CDT.

It most certainly does, and the title being too big certainly doesn't help the sidebar. I thought the title was "The cornerstone of Christianity is Hubris".
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Postby Mardla » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:15 pm

YHWH isn't a liberal humanist, no. He is interested in prescribing morals, not in keeping up with humanity's latest moral fads.
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Postby Clarcia » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:16 pm

Genivaria wrote:
The Sherpa Empire wrote:
Yeah, that's one of the things I dislike in Christian teachings.

Yes that and the concept of 'original sin' doesn't leave much room for personal responsibility.


I find it ironic that in the Christian faith, God made man able to sin, let them sin/be corrupted by the snake, held man accountable and literally genocide the initial run of man except Noah and his family, and then after tons of punishing men and screwing with them in the New Testament, kills himself/his son to atone for the people that ‘disobeyed’ him.

So, Hod sacrificed himself/his son to himself!

This is one of the reasons why I find Christianity ridiculous.

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Postby Xmara » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:17 pm

Benuty wrote:
Genivaria wrote:This belongs in the CDT.

It most certainly does, and the title being too big certainly doesn't help the sidebar. I thought the title was "The cornerstone of Christianity is Hubris".


Well that would have been a new one. Last I checked hubris was a sin, so...
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:20 pm

Xmara wrote:
Benuty wrote:It most certainly does, and the title being too big certainly doesn't help the sidebar. I thought the title was "The cornerstone of Christianity is Hubris".


Well that would have been a new one. Last I checked hubris was a sin, so...

Not really all that surprising considering that the god of the Bible is a self proclaimed 'jealous' god and is very much a wrathful one.
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Postby Mardla » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:22 pm

Clarcia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Yes that and the concept of 'original sin' doesn't leave much room for personal responsibility.


I find it ironic that in the Christian faith, God made man able to sin, let them sin/be corrupted by the snake, held man accountable and literally genocide the initial run of man except Noah and his family, and then after tons of punishing men and screwing with them in the New Testament, kills himself/his son to atone for the people that ‘disobeyed’ him.

So, Hod sacrificed himself/his son to himself!

This is one of the reasons why I find Christianity ridiculous.

Christ's sacrifice was allow the living and the dead (Christ went to Hades) to commune with God via an incarnation. Christ's death is something we participate in in order to participate in His Resurrection.
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Postby Mardla » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:23 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Xmara wrote:
Well that would have been a new one. Last I checked hubris was a sin, so...

Not really all that surprising considering that the god of the Bible is a self proclaimed 'jealous' god and is very much a wrathful one.

What has that to do with hubris?

God is very wrathful but also merificul to those who repent and ask His forgiveness.
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:24 pm

Benuty wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Yes that and the concept of 'original sin' doesn't leave much room for personal responsibility.

Ehh...that depends unless you are one of those branches that believes in "once saved, always saved". I kind of agree with the Mormons that you have to be truly reprehensible to be cast out from all of creation, and basically rot in the void (what they call outer darkness). That said I believe that the point of salvation is to not sin anymore so personal responsibility is part of that.

The way I've always viewed it the very concept of hell (as defined as eternal punishment and suffering) is mutually exclusive with a just system.
Human beings by their very nature are incapable of infinite crime, therefore infinite punishment is inherently unjust.

Especially if you take the view that the final tipper of the scale isn't anything that you actually DO in life but whether or not you embrace Christ, at which point 'justice' completely flies out the window as being relevant to the system.
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:25 pm

Mardla wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Not really all that surprising considering that the god of the Bible is a self proclaimed 'jealous' god and is very much a wrathful one.

What has that to do with hubris?

God is very wrathful but also merificul to those who repent and ask His forgiveness.

Because he brought up that 'hubris' was a sin, and I merely pointed out that so is jealousy and wrath which are both part of the biblical god's character.
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Postby Main » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:26 pm

My understanding has always been that the value of the sacrifice of Jesus is in that it was a selfless act. The idea is not that you have a good child and a bad child, through the concept of the trinity Jesus is God, so it is more akin to a parent choosing to bear the punishment for the actions of their child. In that scenario, the parent is giving of them-self so that their child may live, which while the child is escaping direct punishment, the harm is still befalling one they love. As for escaping responsibility, Jesus is not a get-out-of-sin free coupon. His sacrifice is given freely. However, out of respect for such a gift beyond measure, it is incumbent upon us to try to live as sinlessly as possible.
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:26 pm

Mardla wrote:
Clarcia wrote:
I find it ironic that in the Christian faith, God made man able to sin, let them sin/be corrupted by the snake, held man accountable and literally genocide the initial run of man except Noah and his family, and then after tons of punishing men and screwing with them in the New Testament, kills himself/his son to atone for the people that ‘disobeyed’ him.

So, Hod sacrificed himself/his son to himself!

This is one of the reasons why I find Christianity ridiculous.

Christ's sacrifice was allow the living and the dead (Christ went to Hades) to commune with God via an incarnation. Christ's death is something we participate in in order to participate in His Resurrection.

Ignoring the metaphysical voodoo that's going on here I have to take issue with the word 'allow' here.
Are we talking about traditional god's with domains and limits or are talking about the Omni God with a capital G?
The latter doesn't need to be 'allowed' to do anything.
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Postby Mardla » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:28 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Mardla wrote:What has that to do with hubris?

God is very wrathful but also merificul to those who repent and ask His forgiveness.

Because he brought up that 'hubris' was a sin, and I merely pointed out that so is jealousy and wrath which are both part of the biblical god's character.

God's jealousy is about worship of other gods, which is considered theological adultery in the Bible.

God's wrath is about as sinful as Christ's (who is God)
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:31 pm

Mardla wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Because he brought up that 'hubris' was a sin, and I merely pointed out that so is jealousy and wrath which are both part of the biblical god's character.

God's jealousy is about worship of other gods, which is considered theological adultery in the Bible.

God's wrath is about as sinful as Christ's (who is God)

Saying what the sin is about doesn't really change the point that the sin exists in his character.
Last edited by Genivaria on Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Imperial Esplanade » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:33 pm

I feel like this is more of a blog-post than a genuine attempt at a discussion-starter.
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:34 pm

Imperial Esplanade wrote:I feel like this is more of a blog-post than a genuine discussion-starter.

Oh it's definitely a blog-post.
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Postby Purpelia » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:24 pm

If your problem with Christianity is what they believe wait until you see what they do.
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:28 pm

You also cannibalize the messiah ritually
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Postby Heloin » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:35 pm

Is Chris?

Internationalist Bastard wrote:You also cannibalize the messiah ritually

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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:37 pm

OP we have a Christian Discussion Thread, just post your Christian stuff there.
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