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Pacifica: Announcement of Withdrawal from Antifa

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Klaus Devestatorie
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Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:06 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:At the end of the day, we're here to play a game, not to fight OOC battles.

You do literally nothing but start OOC fights, get involved in existing OOC fights, or try to reframe IC fights as OOC fights. When people talk about how annoyed they are that NS Gameplay politics have devolved to little more than OOC-accusation-musical-chairs, they are almost always talking about you. You are not just part of the problem, you are arguably the keystone of the problem. Between the NPO, Antifa, and Pacifica, the only regional organization that people should be refusing to work with is the one that has you in it.
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Cormactopia Prime
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:16 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:At the end of the day, we're here to play a game, not to fight OOC battles.

You do literally nothing but start OOC fights, get involved in existing OOC fights, or try to reframe IC fights as OOC fights. When people talk about how annoyed they are that NS Gameplay politics have devolved to little more than OOC-accusation-musical-chairs, they are almost always talking about you. You are not just part of the problem, you are arguably the keystone of the problem. Between the NPO, Antifa, and Pacifica, the only regional organization that people should be refusing to work with is the one that has you in it.

Yes, I'm aware that you don't like me, Avakael. Thanks for the update.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:30 am

Wycliffe wrote:This is 100% the wrong move. The fight against fascism, in all its forms, in every corner of the globe and the net, should not ever be compromised by interregional squabbling over ideological matters. There should be enough maturity on Pacifica's part to look past the last six months of NPO rah-rah and focus on actual important matters that go beyond just how to run a region.

I'm disappointed by this action. Overall it just comes off as exceedingly petty and I expect better from the supposed model of Pacifican liberty.

There's no reason that Pacifica needs to work with the NPO to fight Fascists. Hell there's no need to work with Antifa to fight fascists. Any military region worth is salt can go toe to toe with even the largest fascist regions without breaking a sweat. Fighting fascists is not hard.
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Roavin
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Postby Roavin » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:49 am

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:May I remind folks that one of many tidbits of information that came out of the NPO's intelligence kerfuffle was that Pergamon effectively weaponized AntiFash ops in an attempt to elbow orgs like TBH into working with them, and took particular personal offense/held a long term grudge when we maintained our policy of being happy to join antifash ops on the organizational level except those involving defenders (and not barring our members from those, still, FYI, just not participating organizationally).


Sauce? I just ctrl+f-ed TFL and didn't find a mention of "antifa", "fash", or "fascist".
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Honeydewistania
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:49 am

Aclion wrote:
Wycliffe wrote:This is 100% the wrong move. The fight against fascism, in all its forms, in every corner of the globe and the net, should not ever be compromised by interregional squabbling over ideological matters. There should be enough maturity on Pacifica's part to look past the last six months of NPO rah-rah and focus on actual important matters that go beyond just how to run a region.

I'm disappointed by this action. Overall it just comes off as exceedingly petty and I expect better from the supposed model of Pacifican liberty.

There's no reason that Pacifica needs to work with the NPO to fight Fascists. Hell there's no need to work with Antifa to fight fascists. Any military region worth is salt can go toe to toe with even the largest fascist regions without breaking a sweat. Fighting fascists is not hard.

Unfortunately, the truth is Pacifica's military isn't worth its salt. (This is coming from the former Fleet Admiral, and even Cormac admits it). Also, yes fighting fascists isn't hard, but the point is that anti-fascism needs to have unity. The fash used unity in Red States which is how it ballooned so big, if people are going to fracture from UNITY then the fascists will win.
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East Cairo
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Postby East Cairo » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:50 am

meme

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Honeydewistania
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:51 am

East Cairo wrote:meme

Your point being?
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East Cairo
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Postby East Cairo » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:52 am

Honeydewistania wrote:
East Cairo wrote:meme

Your point being?

haha us cairoans :lol

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Armaros
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Armaros » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:20 am

Aclion wrote:
Wycliffe wrote:This is 100% the wrong move. The fight against fascism, in all its forms, in every corner of the globe and the net, should not ever be compromised by interregional squabbling over ideological matters. There should be enough maturity on Pacifica's part to look past the last six months of NPO rah-rah and focus on actual important matters that go beyond just how to run a region.

I'm disappointed by this action. Overall it just comes off as exceedingly petty and I expect better from the supposed model of Pacifican liberty.

There's no reason that Pacifica needs to work with the NPO to fight Fascists. Hell there's no need to work with Antifa to fight fascists. Any military region worth is salt can go toe to toe with even the largest fascist regions without breaking a sweat. Fighting fascists is not hard.

Depends. If fascists band together they can form an average sized force. Not big enough to be very threatening, but not too small to be overlooked. If you're talking about a single fascist region, you're correct.
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The Tri State Area and Maine
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Tri State Area and Maine » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:30 am

Klaus Devestatorie wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:At the end of the day, we're here to play a game, not to fight OOC battles.

You do literally nothing but start OOC fights, get involved in existing OOC fights, or try to reframe IC fights as OOC fights. When people talk about how annoyed they are that NS Gameplay politics have devolved to little more than OOC-accusation-musical-chairs, they are almost always talking about you. You are not just part of the problem, you are arguably the keystone of the problem. Between the NPO, Antifa, and Pacifica, the only regional organization that people should be refusing to work with is the one that has you in it.

So the solution is to call people OOC toxic now. Got it.
Honeydewistania wrote:Unfortunately, the truth is Pacifica's military isn't worth its salt. (This is coming from the former Fleet Admiral, and even Cormac admits it). Also, yes fighting fascists isn't hard, but the point is that anti-fascism needs to have unity. The fash used unity in Red States which is how it ballooned so big, if people are going to fracture from UNITY then the fascists will win.

I'm on NS to play a game, not to fight Fascists. Thus, playing and enjoying this game is more important to me than fighting Fascists. I'm not uniting with IC enemies to fight Fascism, because that's just plain boring and stupid.

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:46 am

Armaros wrote:
Aclion wrote:There's no reason that Pacifica needs to work with the NPO to fight Fascists. Hell there's no need to work with Antifa to fight fascists. Any military region worth is salt can go toe to toe with even the largest fascist regions without breaking a sweat. Fighting fascists is not hard.

Depends. If fascists band together they can form an average sized force. Not big enough to be very threatening, but not too small to be overlooked. If you're talking about a single fascist region, you're correct.

Even it's not like there is a shortage of people eager to take the fight to them.
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Armaros
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Postby Armaros » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:51 am

Aclion wrote:
Armaros wrote:Depends. If fascists band together they can form an average sized force. Not big enough to be very threatening, but not too small to be overlooked. If you're talking about a single fascist region, you're correct.

Even it's not like there is a shortage of people eager to take the fight to them.

Never denied that. Point is, that does make it a lot more difficult for a single org.
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Grater Tovakia
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Postby Grater Tovakia » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:02 am

Honeydewistania wrote:
Aclion wrote:There's no reason that Pacifica needs to work with the NPO to fight Fascists. Hell there's no need to work with Antifa to fight fascists. Any military region worth is salt can go toe to toe with even the largest fascist regions without breaking a sweat. Fighting fascists is not hard.

Unfortunately, the truth is Pacifica's military isn't worth its salt. (This is coming from the former Fleet Admiral, and even Cormac admits it). Also, yes fighting fascists isn't hard, but the point is that anti-fascism needs to have unity. The fash used unity in Red States which is how it ballooned so big, if people are going to fracture from UNITY then the fascists will win.




*Note: I in no way speak on behalf of LE/AA in regards to this post, it is my personal opinion


Honeydew, first off is Unity now an acronym? Secondly, Pacifica's military is worth its salt and I am getting tired of people telling everyone to unite for "The greater good" news flash... no one cares that Antifa destroyed a fash region that had little to no impact on the game. Am I saying that we should not raid fash regions? No, I am saying that Regional interests trump a pointless moral crusade that offers little to no value.


So hop off Cormac and Pacifica will ya?
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Malphe
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Postby Malphe » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:50 am

Really don't like the idea that Pacifica is somehow inclined to stay in Antifa despite NPO joining. I mean seriously, do y'all expect them to just be perfectly chill with the single organization Pacifica has opposed the most being invited on mass? Nobody, not a single organization, should be shamed for respectfully exiting Antifa (or any interregional organization) like this. Ugh.
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Wycliffe
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Postby Wycliffe » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:34 am

Aclion wrote:There's no reason that Pacifica needs to work with the NPO to fight Fascists. Hell there's no need to work with Antifa to fight fascists. Any military region worth is salt can go toe to toe with even the largest fascist regions without breaking a sweat. Fighting fascists is not hard.

You'd like to think so. But I remember in 2016 when raiders sat out on removing fascists from Femdom Empire because the operation was being led by the Grey Wardens- so we lost, and the fascists got to keep the place.

It's almost ridiculous to put fascism in the same box as the NPO. One is clearly a more present threat to not only regions, but our out-of-game way of life too. Unity is precisely what is needed to fight them because they band together in huge numbers. The NSIA wasn't achieved through pettiness and spite for other partners in the anti-fascist coalition. Putting aside our differences to focus on a more important matter is the only way anything gets done when it comes to giving fascists no safe space on this site. And no amount of snark from the Black Hawks will make them any more capable of pulling off operations of that size alone, or only with other raiders.
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Cormactopia Prime
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:53 am

Wycliffe wrote:
Aclion wrote:There's no reason that Pacifica needs to work with the NPO to fight Fascists. Hell there's no need to work with Antifa to fight fascists. Any military region worth is salt can go toe to toe with even the largest fascist regions without breaking a sweat. Fighting fascists is not hard.

You'd like to think so. But I remember in 2016 when raiders sat out on removing fascists from Femdom Empire because the operation was being led by the Grey Wardens- so we lost, and the fascists got to keep the place.

It's almost ridiculous to put fascism in the same box as the NPO. One is clearly a more present threat to not only regions, but our out-of-game way of life too. Unity is precisely what is needed to fight them because they band together in huge numbers. The NSIA wasn't achieved through pettiness and spite for other partners in the anti-fascist coalition. Putting aside our differences to focus on a more important matter is the only way anything gets done when it comes to giving fascists no safe space on this site. And no amount of snark from the Black Hawks will make them any more capable of pulling off operations of that size alone, or only with other raiders.

Listen, we're not going to be shamed into abandoning our gameplay positions and working with the NPO. That's really just all there is to say about it. You're essentially asking us to forget everything we've been doing in gameplay and stop playing the game for the sake of anti-fascist operations. Sorry, but no.

Honestly, you need to get a grip. I support anti-fascist operations, but there is no moral imperative for them. They have no actual effect. Settle down.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bedetopia
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bedetopia » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:57 am

Wycliffe wrote:
Aclion wrote:There's no reason that Pacifica needs to work with the NPO to fight Fascists. Hell there's no need to work with Antifa to fight fascists. Any military region worth is salt can go toe to toe with even the largest fascist regions without breaking a sweat. Fighting fascists is not hard.

You'd like to think so. But I remember in 2016 when raiders sat out on removing fascists from Femdom Empire because the operation was being led by the Grey Wardens- so we lost, and the fascists got to keep the place.

It's almost ridiculous to put fascism in the same box as the NPO. One is clearly a more present threat to not only regions, but our out-of-game way of life too. Unity is precisely what is needed to fight them because they band together in huge numbers. The NSIA wasn't achieved through pettiness and spite for other partners in the anti-fascist coalition. Putting aside our differences to focus on a more important matter is the only way anything gets done when it comes to giving fascists no safe space on this site. And no amount of snark from the Black Hawks will make them any more capable of pulling off operations of that size alone, or only with other raiders.


I'd like to point out that they were allowed to fester for over 20 days in The Red States. Only small and sparse liberation raids were attempted during that time, didn't do much in terms of attrition. Had the utterly incompetent Iron Confederacy not been leading it, they could've locked it down before the big push. The antifascist side was too slow to unite.
Last edited by Bedetopia on Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kurnugia
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Kurnugia » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:58 am

*shrugs*

As long as you won't interfere with Antifa op it's your choice. That anti-fascism is not everything (as seen with TRE) is just common sense. Just know this: Divide and conquer is a concept a child can understand. I sincerely hope your cause against the NPO is important enough to give the fashies this inch.

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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:59 am

Wycliffe wrote:And no amount of snark from the Black Hawks will make them any more capable of pulling off operations of that size alone, or only with other raiders.


On the other hand, we also didn’t make a habit of giving The Invaders, with their both objectionable past and more concurrent weird obsession with hating “sjw’s,” legitimacy and a chance to fly their own brand of fascist-inspired regalia over our ops.

Sometime having standards is okay.
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Cormactopia Prime
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:04 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Wycliffe wrote:And no amount of snark from the Black Hawks will make them any more capable of pulling off operations of that size alone, or only with other raiders.


On the other hand, we also didn’t make a habit of giving The Invaders, with their both objectionable past and more concurrent weird obsession with hating “sjw’s,” legitimacy and a chance to fly their own brand of fascist-inspired regalia over our ops.

Sometime having standards is okay.

This. Everyone who engaged in the last round of moralistically shaming everyone into UNITY ended up working under "Brunhilde" and alongside The Invaders, among others. Personally, I learned my lesson from that about the pitfalls of combining moralism and anti-fascism. Why didn't others?
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Kurnugia
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Postby Kurnugia » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:07 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
On the other hand, we also didn’t make a habit of giving The Invaders, with their both objectionable past and more concurrent weird obsession with hating “sjw’s,” legitimacy and a chance to fly their own brand of fascist-inspired regalia over our ops.

Sometime having standards is okay.

This. Everyone who engaged in the last round of moralistically shaming everyone into UNITY ended up working under "Brunhilde" and alongside The Invaders, among others. Personally, I learned my lesson from that about the pitfalls of combining moralism and anti-fascism. Why didn't others?

Lol. I don't think anyone is doubting that antifascism isn't everything. Rather: Most just doubt that the squabbles Pacifica has with the NPO are important enough to risk the unity.
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Wycliffe
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Wycliffe » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:10 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Wycliffe wrote:And no amount of snark from the Black Hawks will make them any more capable of pulling off operations of that size alone, or only with other raiders.


On the other hand, we also didn’t make a habit of giving The Invaders, with their both objectionable past and more concurrent weird obsession with hating “sjw’s,” legitimacy and a chance to fly their own brand of fascist-inspired regalia over our ops.

Sometime having standards is okay.

Standards are one thing, but that's because the OOC actions of the people in the Invaders were repugnant enough to warrant outright rejecting them, for precisely the reasons you mentioned. The NPO isn't such a case- all their people have done is play the game.

Kurnugia wrote:Most just doubt that the squabbles Pacifica has with the NPO are important enough to risk the unity.

Precisely this. It just isn't.
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RiderSyl
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Postby RiderSyl » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:12 pm

Wycliffe wrote:The NPO isn't such a case- all their people have done is play the game.

Then why is Pergamon banned again...?
Last edited by RiderSyl on Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:13 pm

Where is all this outrage from the peanut gallery when The Black hawks have for years now refused to participate in AntiFash operations if defenders were also present? Seems that people are more aiming at an easy target than being actualy outraged about this - otherwise I'd expect some more consistent applications of outrage.
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Wycliffe
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Postby Wycliffe » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:20 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:Where is all this outrage from the peanut gallery when The Black hawks have for years now refused to participate in AntiFash operations if defenders were also present? Seems that people are more aiming at an easy target than being actualy outraged about this - otherwise I'd expect some more consistent applications of outrage.

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