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Poland grants asylum to Norwegian refugee

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Taking away children .. right reasons?

Parents are too poor to raise a child
40
16%
Parents are too fatigued to raise a child
24
10%
Parents taking children to Church
15
6%
Speaking foreign languages at home
14
6%
Spanking children
50
20%
None of these are right reasons
103
42%
 
Total votes : 246

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Trumptonium1
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Poland grants asylum to Norwegian refugee

Postby Trumptonium1 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:33 am

Not clickbait.

A Norwegian woman, Slije Garmo, fled Norway last year after the internationally-condemned Norwegian Child Services (Barnevernet) began proceedings to take away her children. Barnevernet is the world's biggest such organisation in the numbers of children the state seizes, with around 3% of Norwegian children given mandatory counseling (US analogy: 2.2 million) and around a quarter (US comparison: half a million children) taken from parents every year. The organisation has sparked protests in India, Russia, Philippines, Poland, United Kingdom, Australia, Czech Republic, Spain, Canada and riots in Romania. India notably recalled their embassy over the issue.

The organisation seizes children for a variety of what it calls 'abuses', including parents being in poverty, parents being ill, parents trying to pass religion to children, spanking and in one case seizing a child because the mother didn't send her to school for a week because the school didn't take bullying claims seriously. The organisation also uses questionable tactics in seizing children, with videos on youtube showing officials helped by police in grabbing screaming children by each limb and throwing them in cars and intercepting children while they're in schools without the parents' knowledge with lies about where they're going to invite them into vans. The organisation was also known to have knowingly employed psychiatrists with convictions of child pornography. Between 1945 and 1980, the organisation was known to have abused children, and in 2010 4000 claimants successfully fought for compensation totaling $1.3bn for their abuse.

In February 2016, Norway was reprimanded by the European Court of Human Rights over Barnevernet, with no less than 8 separate cases on the issue of parental rights, child abuse and kidnapping.

The organisation has been covered in a BBC exposure report here // Australian SBS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XrzUAQ4qpE // https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-PzrwliUk4

For example, in the case of Ruth and her Romanian husband Marius ("Bodnariu family") the organisation took four kids because they regularly took their children to Christian church and were accused of Christian indoctrination. In some creepy movie-like scenes, the parents described three black vans circling their farm and taking the children, with a single woman from Barnevernet knocking on their door inviting them to a police station. They took their case to the European Court of Human Rights on grounds of religious discrimination, and although their case failed the Norwegian government later admitted failings and offered compensation.

In one other bizarre case a Lithuanian woman had their child randomly taken away because the children services wanted to combat 'inbreeding' and accused her national background of having higher rates of inbreeding than Norway. The organisation also takes children from tourists, and in 2015 the Czech President accused Norway of acting like the Nazis after children were taken away from parents because they spoke Czech at home. Putin has issued similar statements regarding the treatment of Russian-speaking families. In one case the services took away a baby right after birth because the mother was 'too poor', and the services are also known to have taken children because parents are ill, including having asthma.

A few years ago, India ended diplomatic relations with Norway over treatment of an Indian family of doctors. And that's just external cases spoken about in foreign media - there are hundreds more cases of Norwegians themselves having children taken away for a variety of reasons, only covered in local media or not at all.

In one controversial case, a famous Polish investigator kidnapped a Russian child from Norway from his foster family after he was taken away from his biological parents. In the first instance of the child being given access to a telephone, the child called his real parents and begged for them to rescue him. The investigator took the child while he was outside and fled the country with him, and reunited him with his real family. Norway issued an extradition request to Poland, but Poland immediately dropped the case without further action.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfQP9tPY3bI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuuOXhaRSYk
https://europex.lt/wp-content/uploads/2 ... vernet.jpg

But let's skip all that. This thread is here to talk about the first case of a Norwegian national being given asylum in history. In this scenario, it is Slije Gormo, who escaped to Poland last year and was granted asylum last week by the Polish authorities. She arrived in Poland with her daughter Eira, four months old at the time, in May 2017 after being warned by friends that her child would probably be taken away. Norway’s Barnevernet child welfare service accused Garmo of the heavy crime of being fatigued, as well as using painkillers. In other words, she's too ill and tired to raise a child.

Although most of Norway's interventions in children are to poor people and immigrants, Gormo is a Norwegian (Sami) woman who is educated and wealthy, which raised eyebrows when her children were taken away. But it appears that in recent times the reasons of why children can be taken away have been extended to mothers' physical restraints. More curiously, she's actually a lawyer. She has criticised Norwegian law for giving a blank cheque to Barnevernet, because its remit for seizing children is "concern" which can include absolutely anything they want to conjure up against the parents.

The Polish government itself supported her case. This is not the first time that native Norwegians have fled to Poland - in 2016 one family arrived in Poland after the mother was accused of being insane by Norwegian authorities. They took their children and emigrated, but were issued with an Interpol APB. The Polish govt refused their extradition request and kept the family safe. The mother agreed to go back to Norway for testing, in which she was declared to be completely sane. It was decided that the case was an "oversight" and Barnevernet apologised to the family. Regardless, the family stayed in Poland and plan to remain there permanently and they regularly take part in protests against the organisation.
https://www.tv2.no/a/8426843/
Last edited by Trumptonium1 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Sicaris
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Postby Sicaris » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:46 am

How the hell has this agency not been shut the hell down entirely?
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Andsed
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Postby Andsed » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:51 am

Good for Poland that Norwegian organization is very oppressive and Poland taking a stand against it is something I fully support.
I do be tired


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Comfy kots
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Postby Comfy kots » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:01 am

Sicaris wrote:How the hell has this agency not been shut the hell down entirely?

i'm wondering this myself holy shit
what is norway even doing?
big kots

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Sicaris
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Postby Sicaris » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:03 am

Comfy kots wrote:
Sicaris wrote:How the hell has this agency not been shut the hell down entirely?

i'm wondering this myself holy shit
what is norway even doing?


And they’re still somehow the third happiest nation in the world.
This country doesn’t represent my political views.
Three Principles of the People is a good book.
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I’m an American nationalist, ultra-capitalist, Kemalist, and First and Second Amendment extremist. Alexander Hamilton and Ronald Reagan are my gods and I will incessantly worship them.

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“If you are born poor, it’s not your mistake; but if you die poor, it’s your mistake.”

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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:12 am

I don't get what the fuss is all about, all these sound like very legitimate reasons why children should not be raised by such parents. If negligent parents want to whine like babies because a government agency is doing its job, then go ahead, but they'll have to do it without their children. Just be a good parent and the Norwegian Barnevernet won't bother you, what's so hard about that.
Purgatio is an absolutist hereditary monarchy run as a one-party fascist dictatorship, which seized power in a sudden and abrupt coup d'état of 1987-1988, on an authoritarian eugenic and socially Darwinistic political philosophy and ideology, now ruled and dominated with a brutal iron fist under the watchful reign of Le Grand Roi Chalon-Arlay de la Fayette and La Grande Reine Geneviève de la Fayette (née Aumont) (i.e., the 'Founding Couple' or Le Couple Fondateur).

For a domestic Purgation 'propagandist' view of its role in the world, see: An Introduction to Purgatio.

And for a more 'objective' international perspective on Purgatio's history, culture, and politics, see: A Brief Overview of the History, Politics, and Culture of Le Royaume du Nettoyage de la Purgatio.

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Sicaris
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Postby Sicaris » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:14 am

Purgatio wrote:I don't get what the fuss is all about, all these sound like very legitimate reasons why children should not be raised by such parents. If negligent parents want to whine like babies because a government agency is doing its job, then go ahead, but they'll have to do it without their children. Just be a good parent and the Norwegian Barnevernet won't bother you, what's so hard about that.



SPANKING A KID? REALLY?
This country doesn’t represent my political views.
Three Principles of the People is a good book.
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I’m an American nationalist, ultra-capitalist, Kemalist, and First and Second Amendment extremist. Alexander Hamilton and Ronald Reagan are my gods and I will incessantly worship them.

No, basement dwellers of the world, communism does not work.

“If you are born poor, it’s not your mistake; but if you die poor, it’s your mistake.”

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Comfy kots
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Postby Comfy kots » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:14 am

Sicaris wrote:
third happiest nation in the world.

honestly, x doubt at this point
i bet this is rigged if such shit like this happens on a daily basis
big kots

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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:16 am

Sicaris wrote:
Purgatio wrote:I don't get what the fuss is all about, all these sound like very legitimate reasons why children should not be raised by such parents. If negligent parents want to whine like babies because a government agency is doing its job, then go ahead, but they'll have to do it without their children. Just be a good parent and the Norwegian Barnevernet won't bother you, what's so hard about that.



SPANKING A KID? REALLY?


Yes, really: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brain

People really need to get informed, corporal punishment and spanking has been conclusively linked to higher aggression and lower IQ in children. Parents really need to read up on the science behind spanking and its effects on children, those who keep doing it should have their children raised by qualified professionals employed by the State, rather than uninformed parents who are objectively-harming their children's development.
Purgatio is an absolutist hereditary monarchy run as a one-party fascist dictatorship, which seized power in a sudden and abrupt coup d'état of 1987-1988, on an authoritarian eugenic and socially Darwinistic political philosophy and ideology, now ruled and dominated with a brutal iron fist under the watchful reign of Le Grand Roi Chalon-Arlay de la Fayette and La Grande Reine Geneviève de la Fayette (née Aumont) (i.e., the 'Founding Couple' or Le Couple Fondateur).

For a domestic Purgation 'propagandist' view of its role in the world, see: An Introduction to Purgatio.

And for a more 'objective' international perspective on Purgatio's history, culture, and politics, see: A Brief Overview of the History, Politics, and Culture of Le Royaume du Nettoyage de la Purgatio.

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Andsed
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Postby Andsed » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:17 am

Sicaris wrote:
Purgatio wrote:I don't get what the fuss is all about, all these sound like very legitimate reasons why children should not be raised by such parents. If negligent parents want to whine like babies because a government agency is doing its job, then go ahead, but they'll have to do it without their children. Just be a good parent and the Norwegian Barnevernet won't bother you, what's so hard about that.



SPANKING A KID? REALLY?

Also there is taking kids to church which even as a rabid anti theist I can say is nothing wrong with and speaking foreign languages which how in the hell is that wrong.
I do be tired


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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:20 am

Andsed wrote:
Sicaris wrote:

SPANKING A KID? REALLY?

Also there is taking kids to church which even as a rabid anti theist I can say is nothing wrong with and speaking foreign languages which how in the hell is that wrong.


Religion should be a matter for informed adults to make a choice, on their own, what faith and conscience to believe in. Indoctrinating and brainwashing impressionable young kids with no real agency and capacity to make decisions on their own is unconscionable and unacceptable.

As for foreign languages, any foreign languages at home should, at best, serve as subsidiary second languages or mother tongues, but if you want your child to have maximum opportunities to integrate into Norwegian society, then if you love your kid, you would speak Norwegian as the primary language at home. To do anything less is to actively retard your child's future development for the sake of selfish and self-serving cultural motivations.
Purgatio is an absolutist hereditary monarchy run as a one-party fascist dictatorship, which seized power in a sudden and abrupt coup d'état of 1987-1988, on an authoritarian eugenic and socially Darwinistic political philosophy and ideology, now ruled and dominated with a brutal iron fist under the watchful reign of Le Grand Roi Chalon-Arlay de la Fayette and La Grande Reine Geneviève de la Fayette (née Aumont) (i.e., the 'Founding Couple' or Le Couple Fondateur).

For a domestic Purgation 'propagandist' view of its role in the world, see: An Introduction to Purgatio.

And for a more 'objective' international perspective on Purgatio's history, culture, and politics, see: A Brief Overview of the History, Politics, and Culture of Le Royaume du Nettoyage de la Purgatio.

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Postby Kowani » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:25 am

Purgatio wrote:
Andsed wrote:Also there is taking kids to church which even as a rabid anti theist I can say is nothing wrong with and speaking foreign languages which how in the hell is that wrong.


Religion should be a matter for informed adults to make a choice, on their own, what faith and conscience to believe in. Indoctrinating and brainwashing impressionable young kids with no real agency and capacity to make decisions on their own is unconscionable and unacceptable.

As for foreign languages, any foreign languages at home should, at best, serve as subsidiary second languages or mother tongues, but if you want your child to have maximum opportunities to integrate into Norwegian society, then if you love your kid, you would speak Norwegian as the primary language at home. To do anything less is to actively retard your child's future development for the sake of selfish and self-serving cultural motivations.

I mean, if you’re an immigrant and don’t know Norwegian...
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:28 am

I used to think Norway was a nice country, but now I'm not so sure.

At least the word 'refugee' is being used properly in a news article for once.
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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:28 am

Kowani wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Religion should be a matter for informed adults to make a choice, on their own, what faith and conscience to believe in. Indoctrinating and brainwashing impressionable young kids with no real agency and capacity to make decisions on their own is unconscionable and unacceptable.

As for foreign languages, any foreign languages at home should, at best, serve as subsidiary second languages or mother tongues, but if you want your child to have maximum opportunities to integrate into Norwegian society, then if you love your kid, you would speak Norwegian as the primary language at home. To do anything less is to actively retard your child's future development for the sake of selfish and self-serving cultural motivations.

I mean, if you’re an immigrant and don’t know Norwegian...


Then learn it, so you can speak it to your child at home. Its basic common sense that if you raise your child to speak Norwegian as a second or third language, you place your child at a huge disadvantage when it comes to integration and advancement within Norwegian society, if you really loved your child you would learn Norwegian and you'd speak it at home to your kid so he can fully-internalise the language as he grows up, especially in the earliest years of his development when kids pick up new languages the fastest.
Purgatio is an absolutist hereditary monarchy run as a one-party fascist dictatorship, which seized power in a sudden and abrupt coup d'état of 1987-1988, on an authoritarian eugenic and socially Darwinistic political philosophy and ideology, now ruled and dominated with a brutal iron fist under the watchful reign of Le Grand Roi Chalon-Arlay de la Fayette and La Grande Reine Geneviève de la Fayette (née Aumont) (i.e., the 'Founding Couple' or Le Couple Fondateur).

For a domestic Purgation 'propagandist' view of its role in the world, see: An Introduction to Purgatio.

And for a more 'objective' international perspective on Purgatio's history, culture, and politics, see: A Brief Overview of the History, Politics, and Culture of Le Royaume du Nettoyage de la Purgatio.

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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:32 am

Really Norway? Really?

Barnevernet is just another reason why Norway should be annexed by Denmark.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:34 am

Purgatio wrote:
Kowani wrote:I mean, if you’re an immigrant and don’t know Norwegian...


Then learn it, so you can speak it to your child at home. Its basic common sense that if you raise your child to speak Norwegian as a second or third language, you place your child at a huge disadvantage when it comes to integration and advancement within Norwegian society, if you really loved your child you would learn Norwegian and you'd speak it at home to your kid so he can fully-internalise the language as he grows up, especially in the earliest years of his development when kids pick up new languages the fastest.


This post of yours demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how learning a language works.

Norwegian being their second language doesn't mean they can't be fluent in it.
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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:37 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Then learn it, so you can speak it to your child at home. Its basic common sense that if you raise your child to speak Norwegian as a second or third language, you place your child at a huge disadvantage when it comes to integration and advancement within Norwegian society, if you really loved your child you would learn Norwegian and you'd speak it at home to your kid so he can fully-internalise the language as he grows up, especially in the earliest years of his development when kids pick up new languages the fastest.


This post of yours demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how learning a language works.

Norwegian being their second language doesn't mean they can't be fluent in it.


They won't be as fluent in it as children who spoke Norwegian as the primary language in their home. And I'm more than aware of how learning a language works. I come from Singapore, where English is the primary language of business, politics and commerce, and there is a marked difference in how children from mainly Chinese/Malay/Tamil-speaking households perform in school versus children raised in English-speaking households. Children who speak English as a second language in Singapore end up struggling and floundering against their peers who were raised in primarily-English-speaking families, which is why I think the Norwegian CPS is perfectly-justified in regarding parents who don't raise their children to speak Norwegian as the primary language as being responsible for unconscionable child abuse.
Purgatio is an absolutist hereditary monarchy run as a one-party fascist dictatorship, which seized power in a sudden and abrupt coup d'état of 1987-1988, on an authoritarian eugenic and socially Darwinistic political philosophy and ideology, now ruled and dominated with a brutal iron fist under the watchful reign of Le Grand Roi Chalon-Arlay de la Fayette and La Grande Reine Geneviève de la Fayette (née Aumont) (i.e., the 'Founding Couple' or Le Couple Fondateur).

For a domestic Purgation 'propagandist' view of its role in the world, see: An Introduction to Purgatio.

And for a more 'objective' international perspective on Purgatio's history, culture, and politics, see: A Brief Overview of the History, Politics, and Culture of Le Royaume du Nettoyage de la Purgatio.

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Postby Stellar Colonies » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:40 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:Really Norway? Really?

Barnevernet is just another reason why Norway should be annexed by Denmark.

#MakeNorwayDenmarkAgain
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:42 am

Purgatio wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
This post of yours demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how learning a language works.

Norwegian being their second language doesn't mean they can't be fluent in it.


They won't be as fluent in it as children who spoke Norwegian as the primary language in their home. And I'm more than aware of how learning a language works. I come from Singapore, where English is the primary language of business, politics and commerce, and there is a marked difference in how children from mainly Chinese/Malay/Tamil-speaking households perform in school versus children raised in English-speaking households. Children who speak English as a second language in Singapore end up struggling and floundering against their peers who were raised in primarily-English-speaking families, which is why I think the Norwegian CPS is perfectly-justified in regarding parents who don't raise their children to speak Norwegian as the primary language as being responsible for unconscionable child abuse.


That sounds more like an issue with Singapore's culture and education.
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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:43 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
They won't be as fluent in it as children who spoke Norwegian as the primary language in their home. And I'm more than aware of how learning a language works. I come from Singapore, where English is the primary language of business, politics and commerce, and there is a marked difference in how children from mainly Chinese/Malay/Tamil-speaking households perform in school versus children raised in English-speaking households. Children who speak English as a second language in Singapore end up struggling and floundering against their peers who were raised in primarily-English-speaking families, which is why I think the Norwegian CPS is perfectly-justified in regarding parents who don't raise their children to speak Norwegian as the primary language as being responsible for unconscionable child abuse.


That sounds more like an issue with Singapore's culture and education.


Are Norwegian schools mainly taught in Norwegian? Do Norwegian companies mainly conduct business in Norwegian? Do Norwegian civil servants typically conduct governmental affairs in Norwegian?

If the answer to the above is yes on all counts, then my argument is equally-relevant to Norway as it is in Singapore.
Purgatio is an absolutist hereditary monarchy run as a one-party fascist dictatorship, which seized power in a sudden and abrupt coup d'état of 1987-1988, on an authoritarian eugenic and socially Darwinistic political philosophy and ideology, now ruled and dominated with a brutal iron fist under the watchful reign of Le Grand Roi Chalon-Arlay de la Fayette and La Grande Reine Geneviève de la Fayette (née Aumont) (i.e., the 'Founding Couple' or Le Couple Fondateur).

For a domestic Purgation 'propagandist' view of its role in the world, see: An Introduction to Purgatio.

And for a more 'objective' international perspective on Purgatio's history, culture, and politics, see: A Brief Overview of the History, Politics, and Culture of Le Royaume du Nettoyage de la Purgatio.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:46 am

Purgatio wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
That sounds more like an issue with Singapore's culture and education.


Are Norwegian schools mainly taught in Norwegian? Do Norwegian companies mainly conduct business in Norwegian? Do Norwegian civil servants typically conduct governmental affairs in Norwegian?

If the answer to the above is yes on all counts, then my argument is equally-relevant to Norway as it is in Singapore.


No, it isn't, because they teach Norwegian in Norwegian schools - just like how they teach English in American schools. From what you described, it doesn't sound like Singapore teaches any one language in it's schools.
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永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀
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Minzerland II
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Postby Minzerland II » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:46 am

Purgatio wrote:I don't get what the fuss is all about, all these sound like very legitimate reasons why children should not be raised by such parents. If negligent parents want to whine like babies because a government agency is doing its job, then go ahead, but they'll have to do it without their children. Just be a good parent and the Norwegian Barnevernet won't bother you, what's so hard about that.

‘Just be a good parent’
Previous Profile: Minzerland
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St Anselm of Canterbury wrote:[…]who ever heard of anything having two mothers or two fathers? (Monologion, pg. 63)

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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:48 am

Purgatio wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
That sounds more like an issue with Singapore's culture and education.


Are Norwegian schools mainly taught in Norwegian? Do Norwegian companies mainly conduct business in Norwegian? Do Norwegian civil servants typically conduct governmental affairs in Norwegian?

It's actually a mixture of Norwegian and English, they're multilingual.
All shall tremble before me

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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:48 am

Minzerland II wrote:
Purgatio wrote:I don't get what the fuss is all about, all these sound like very legitimate reasons why children should not be raised by such parents. If negligent parents want to whine like babies because a government agency is doing its job, then go ahead, but they'll have to do it without their children. Just be a good parent and the Norwegian Barnevernet won't bother you, what's so hard about that.

‘Just be a good parent’

Must of missed the "Lithuanian Mother" part.
All shall tremble before me

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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:53 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Are Norwegian schools mainly taught in Norwegian? Do Norwegian companies mainly conduct business in Norwegian? Do Norwegian civil servants typically conduct governmental affairs in Norwegian?

It's actually a mixture of Norwegian and English, they're multilingual.


Fine, then as long as you speak either English or Norwegian as the primary language in the home, you're being an okay parent. Anything else is abusive and will hold back your child's comparative development and success in future compared to his or her peers who spoke English or Norwegian as the primary language in the home. The point stands that CPS did the right thing vis-a-vis the Lithuanian parent.
Purgatio is an absolutist hereditary monarchy run as a one-party fascist dictatorship, which seized power in a sudden and abrupt coup d'état of 1987-1988, on an authoritarian eugenic and socially Darwinistic political philosophy and ideology, now ruled and dominated with a brutal iron fist under the watchful reign of Le Grand Roi Chalon-Arlay de la Fayette and La Grande Reine Geneviève de la Fayette (née Aumont) (i.e., the 'Founding Couple' or Le Couple Fondateur).

For a domestic Purgation 'propagandist' view of its role in the world, see: An Introduction to Purgatio.

And for a more 'objective' international perspective on Purgatio's history, culture, and politics, see: A Brief Overview of the History, Politics, and Culture of Le Royaume du Nettoyage de la Purgatio.

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