Is housing value disparity between Blacks and Whites racist?

[Ifreann]

Across the Pacific ocean, somehow.

In contrast to the Irish who went across the Atlantic Ocean, somehow.

On planes, with J1 visas.

[Thuzbekistan]

Have you ever been to a really bad part of town? Theres trash all over the sides if the roads, guns sticking out of peoples pants, boarded up homes. These parts of town are dangerous just driving through if you're a white guy and God help you if you are a Mexican driving through.

You know my favourite part of this post? "[G]uns sticking out of peoples[sic] pants". This is America we're talking about. What's the problem with black men exercising their right to bear arms?

Did you hear about that shooting at a mall in Alabama on Black Friday? Police announced pretty quickly that they'd shot the perpetrator. Only it turned out that the man they shot and killed was not the perpetrator. Emantic Bradford Jr. was a legally armed US Army veteran who happened to be in the mall. He drew his handgun when he heard gunfire, as did many other people, and he was helping direct other shoppers to safety when he was shot three times in the back of the head and neck.

The people in these communities absolutely are the reason those communities dont see development. If the cops cant go there in fear of being shot, you wont see construction work either.

If cops are afraid of black people, that's not the fault of black people, that's racism.

The point of that post was not "oh god the blacks have guns. Call up Reagan's ghost and NRA to put these blacks in their place" it was "oh crap there's a ton of gangsters in this neighborhood. And yes, I heard about it. It was complete and utter BS. But generally, guns are not actually shown. Open carry is extremely frowned upon and makes people nervous. When there are a lot of people carrying guns in the open, you know you're either surrounded by good guys with guns or gangsters. Neither is very indicative of a safe environment.

And the cops aren't afraid of black people, they are afraid of gangs. Memphis, Tn is one of the most dangerous places in America. We are in the top five most dangerous cities in the country, and we almost beat Chicago a couple times. Cops get shot at and killed here and they simply don't go to neighborhoods like Orange Mound anymore. It's crap. So will you stop painting it like cops are just afraid of black people based on nothing but racism? They have lost friends in these neighborhoods. While this does bleed into how they treat black suspects or black civilians they pull over (and it should not), it's not like cops just go "well, yeah that neighborhood is black. Obviously, it's bad."

[Thuzbekistan]

Have you ever been to a really bad part of town? Theres trash all over the sides if the roads, guns sticking out of peoples pants, boarded up homes. These parts of town are dangerous just driving through if you're a white guy and God help you if you are a Mexican driving through. The people in these communities absolutely are the reason those communities dont see development. If the cops cant go there in fear of being shot, you wont see construction work either.

So what are your thoughts on the history of redlining?

Pretty shitty. I actually didn't know much about it until it was mentioned here. I had to google it and uh... yeah. That's pretty horrid. I didn't expect that.

[Ifreann]

You know my favourite part of this post? "[G]uns sticking out of peoples[sic] pants". This is America we're talking about. What's the problem with black men exercising their right to bear arms?

Did you hear about that shooting at a mall in Alabama on Black Friday? Police announced pretty quickly that they'd shot the perpetrator. Only it turned out that the man they shot and killed was not the perpetrator. Emantic Bradford Jr. was a legally armed US Army veteran who happened to be in the mall. He drew his handgun when he heard gunfire, as did many other people, and he was helping direct other shoppers to safety when he was shot three times in the back of the head and neck.

If cops are afraid of black people, that's not the fault of black people, that's racism.

The point of that post was not "oh god the blacks have guns. Call up Reagan's ghost and NRA to put these blacks in their place" it was "oh crap there's a ton of gangsters in this neighborhood. And yes, I heard about it. It was complete and utter BS. But generally, guns are not actually shown. Open carry is extremely frowned upon and makes people nervous. When there are a lot of people carrying guns in the open, you know you're either surrounded by good guys with guns or gangsters. Neither is very indicative of a safe environment.

Open carry is legal in almost every state. You are judging black men to be gangsters because they are exercising their constitutional rights.

And the cops aren't afraid of black people, they are afraid of gangs.

And black = gang?

Memphis, Tn is one of the most dangerous places in America. We are in the top five most dangerous cities in the country, and we almost beat Chicago a couple times. Cops get shot at and killed here and they simply don't go to neighborhoods like Orange Mound anymore. It's crap. So will you stop painting it like cops are just afraid of black people based on nothing but racism?

Will they stop shooting innocent black men?

They have lost friends in these neighborhoods. While this does bleed into how they treat black suspects or black civilians they pull over (and it should not), it's not like cops just go "well, yeah that neighborhood is black. Obviously, it's bad."

You're saying that the police are discriminating against black people, but insisting that this is the fault of black people.

Das rayciss.

[Pope Joan]

Wealthy black athletes, tired of being targeted by security personnel, established their own high-end gated community in northern New Jersey.
Their own security people then started reporting them as possible risks, whenever they entered the gates
Maybe our sould are rotten; maybe we are hopeless

[Rojava Free State]

That's true, but the people in the neighborhoods are the main contributors to the neighborhoods being undesirable.

To you?

I think most people would consider a neighborhood with multiple burned down houses and drive by shootings to be undesirable. It isn't racist to not want to live in an area with a very high violent crime rate. it's called being smart, and because black america has a disprportionately high crime rate, most (not all) black neighborhoods are definitely undesirable, even for their inhabitants. 99% of the people you see living in the Cass Corridor in Detroit would live anywhere else if they could afford to. They dont wanna be there

[Ifreann]

To you?

I think most people would consider a neighborhood with multiple burned down houses and drive by shootings to be undesirable. It isn't racist to not want to live in an area with a very high violent crime rate. it's called being smart, and because black america has a disprportionately high crime rate, most (not all) black neighborhoods are definitely undesirable, even for their inhabitants. 99% of the people you see living in the Cass Corridor in Detroit would live anywhere else if they could afford to. They dont wanna be there

And do you think that black people living in an area just inherently drives up crime and causes houses to burn down? Or might there perhaps be some other explanation than assuming blacks to be genetically criminal?

[Rojava Free State]

I think most people would consider a neighborhood with multiple burned down houses and drive by shootings to be undesirable. It isn't racist to not want to live in an area with a very high violent crime rate. it's called being smart, and because black america has a disprportionately high crime rate, most (not all) black neighborhoods are definitely undesirable, even for their inhabitants. 99% of the people you see living in the Cass Corridor in Detroit would live anywhere else if they could afford to. They dont wanna be there

And do you think that black people living in an area just inherently drives up crime and causes houses to burn down? Or might there perhaps be some other explanation than assuming blacks to be genetically criminal?

Maybe you could stop assuming i said black people genetically anything. I said many black neighborhoods in america suffer violent crime at a higher rate than most white neighborhoods, so the property values are lower. I was also stating that it isn't racist to not wanna live in many of these areas due to the danger. Never once did i say "it's cause these inferior lifeforms reside there." In a vacuum, black people living in an area does not make it more dangrous, case in point being the nation of Barbados. In America, there is a link because more black folks living in poverty than white folks and violence in urban areas. While the poverty many black people live in is indeed a legacy of slavery, it isn't as simple as "muh racism." The legacy of racism and slavery can still take its toll without all of the racism still being present. It isn't as simple as "white people dont like black people so they intentionally lower the housing prices on zillow just to mess with them."

[Thuzbekistan]

The point of that post was not "oh god the blacks have guns. Call up Reagan's ghost and NRA to put these blacks in their place" it was "oh crap there's a ton of gangsters in this neighborhood. And yes, I heard about it. It was complete and utter BS. But generally, guns are not actually shown. Open carry is extremely frowned upon and makes people nervous. When there are a lot of people carrying guns in the open, you know you're either surrounded by good guys with guns or gangsters. Neither is very indicative of a safe environment.

Open carry is legal in almost every state. You are judging black men to be gangsters because they are exercising their constitutional rights.

And the cops aren't afraid of black people, they are afraid of gangs.

And black = gang?

Memphis, Tn is one of the most dangerous places in America. We are in the top five most dangerous cities in the country, and we almost beat Chicago a couple times. Cops get shot at and killed here and they simply don't go to neighborhoods like Orange Mound anymore. It's crap. So will you stop painting it like cops are just afraid of black people based on nothing but racism?

Will they stop shooting innocent black men?

They have lost friends in these neighborhoods. While this does bleed into how they treat black suspects or black civilians they pull over (and it should not), it's not like cops just go "well, yeah that neighborhood is black. Obviously, it's bad."

You're saying that the police are discriminating against black people, but insisting that this is the fault of black people.

Das rayciss.

ugh, you're hopeless. You come live a day in memphis and drive through these neighborhoods. 6 out of every 10 males in Shelby County have been or are currently gang members. there are an estimated 10,000 gang members currently active in memphis. Of these, Latinos and blacks make up most of their members. When you drive through a neighborhood which is a known center of Gang activity and you see weapons on individuals, you are likely to fear their allegiance is a gang.

There's racism, but then there's reasonable fear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_ ... _Tennessee

[Ifreann]

And do you think that black people living in an area just inherently drives up crime and causes houses to burn down? Or might there perhaps be some other explanation than assuming blacks to be genetically criminal?

Maybe you could stop assuming i said black people genetically anything.

I know you didn't say that. I asked if that is what you think. You can answer that you don't think that.

Do people not understand what questions are any more?

I said many black neighborhoods in america suffer violent crime at a higher rate than most white neighborhoods, so the property values are lower. I was also stating that it isn't racist to not wanna live in many of these areas due to the danger. Never once did i say "it's cause these inferior lifeforms reside there." In a vacuum, black people living in an area does not make it more dangrous, case in point being the nation of Barbados. In America, there is a link because more black folks living in poverty than white folks and violence in urban areas. While the poverty many black people live in is indeed a legacy of slavery, it isn't as simple as "muh racism." The legacy of racism and slavery can still take its toll without all of the racism still being present. It isn't as simple as "white people dont like black people so they intentionally lower the housing prices on zillow just to mess with them."

Congratulations, you've managed to argue that property in black neighbourhoods is valued less than comparable properties in less black neighbourhoods because of racism, but not because of racism.

---

Open carry is legal in almost every state. You are judging black men to be gangsters because they are exercising their constitutional rights.


And black = gang?

Will they stop shooting innocent black men?

You're saying that the police are discriminating against black people, but insisting that this is the fault of black people.

Das rayciss.

ugh, you're hopeless. You come live a day in memphis and drive through these neighborhoods. 6 out of every 10 males in Shelby County have been or are currently gang members. there are an estimated 10,000 gang members currently active in memphis. Of these, Latinos and blacks make up most of their members. When you drive through a neighborhood which is a known center of Gang activity and you see weapons on individuals, you are likely to fear their allegiance is a gang.

There's racism, but then there's reasonable fear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_ ... _Tennessee

Did you mean to make this thread about Memphis, Tennessee specifically? Or are you trying to justify nationwide trends in property values based on one small part of the nation being, in your mind, justifiably valued lower because of the black residents?

[Thuzbekistan]

Maybe you could stop assuming i said black people genetically anything.

I know you didn't say that. I asked if that is what you think. You can answer that you don't think that.

Do people not understand what questions are any more?

I said many black neighborhoods in america suffer violent crime at a higher rate than most white neighborhoods, so the property values are lower. I was also stating that it isn't racist to not wanna live in many of these areas due to the danger. Never once did i say "it's cause these inferior lifeforms reside there." In a vacuum, black people living in an area does not make it more dangrous, case in point being the nation of Barbados. In America, there is a link because more black folks living in poverty than white folks and violence in urban areas. While the poverty many black people live in is indeed a legacy of slavery, it isn't as simple as "muh racism." The legacy of racism and slavery can still take its toll without all of the racism still being present. It isn't as simple as "white people dont like black people so they intentionally lower the housing prices on zillow just to mess with them."

Congratulations, you've managed to argue that property in black neighbourhoods is valued less than comparable properties in less black neighbourhoods because of racism, but not because of racism.

---

ugh, you're hopeless. You come live a day in memphis and drive through these neighborhoods. 6 out of every 10 males in Shelby County have been or are currently gang members. there are an estimated 10,000 gang members currently active in memphis. Of these, Latinos and blacks make up most of their members. When you drive through a neighborhood which is a known center of Gang activity and you see weapons on individuals, you are likely to fear their allegiance is a gang.

There's racism, but then there's reasonable fear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_ ... _Tennessee

Did you mean to make this thread about Memphis, Tennessee specifically? Or are you trying to justify nationwide trends in property values based on one small part of the nation being, in your mind, justifiably valued lower because of the black residents?

No, I was justifying why I would feel fear in these sorts of neighborhoods and why cops were. The thread was originally about how racism may or may not be the cause of lower housing prices. It has gone far off track with your accusation that police are just racist for not wanting to go to a bad neighborhood. However, in bad neighborhoods with high crime, housing prices will be low no matter what race is there.

[Ifreann]

I know you didn't say that. I asked if that is what you think. You can answer that you don't think that.

Do people not understand what questions are any more?

Congratulations, you've managed to argue that property in black neighbourhoods is valued less than comparable properties in less black neighbourhoods because of racism, but not because of racism.

---

Did you mean to make this thread about Memphis, Tennessee specifically? Or are you trying to justify nationwide trends in property values based on one small part of the nation being, in your mind, justifiably valued lower because of the black residents?

No, I was justifying why I would feel fear in these sorts of neighborhoods and why cops were. The thread was originally about how racism may or may not be the cause of lower housing prices.

Then you fucked up, son, because that's very obviously the cause.

It has gone far off track with your accusation that police are just racist for not wanting to go to a bad neighborhood. However, in bad neighborhoods with high crime, housing prices will be low no matter what race is there.

Why do you think crime might be higher in black neighbourhoods? Poverty, maybe? Caused by centuries of racism, perhaps?

[Rojava Free State]

I said many black neighborhoods in america suffer violent crime at a higher rate than most white neighborhoods, so the property values are lower. I was also stating that it isn't racist to not wanna live in many of these areas due to the danger. Never once did i say "it's cause these inferior lifeforms reside there." In a vacuum, black people living in an area does not make it more dangrous, case in point being the nation of Barbados. In America, there is a link because more black folks living in poverty than white folks and violence in urban areas. While the poverty many black people live in is indeed a legacy of slavery, it isn't as simple as "muh racism." The legacy of racism and slavery can still take its toll without all of the racism still being present. It isn't as simple as "white people dont like black people so they intentionally lower the housing prices on zillow just to mess with them."

Congratulations, you've managed to argue that property in black neighbourhoods is valued less than comparable properties in less black neighbourhoods because of racism, but not because of racism.

---

Racism and the legacy of racism are not identical. Racism suggests the system itself is still actively attempting to ruin the lives of black americans, while the legacy of racism involves past systematic injustices leaving black americans at a disadvantage and unable to get by. Black neighborhood housing values arent marked low specifically because the residents are black, but because of violence and substandard housing which is a result of slavery in the past. These things arent the same

[Ifreann]

I said many black neighborhoods in america suffer violent crime at a higher rate than most white neighborhoods, so the property values are lower. I was also stating that it isn't racist to not wanna live in many of these areas due to the danger. Never once did i say "it's cause these inferior lifeforms reside there." In a vacuum, black people living in an area does not make it more dangrous, case in point being the nation of Barbados. In America, there is a link because more black folks living in poverty than white folks and violence in urban areas. While the poverty many black people live in is indeed a legacy of slavery, it isn't as simple as "muh racism." The legacy of racism and slavery can still take its toll without all of the racism still being present. It isn't as simple as "white people dont like black people so they intentionally lower the housing prices on zillow just to mess with them."

Congratulations, you've managed to argue that property in black neighbourhoods is valued less than comparable properties in less black neighbourhoods because of racism, but not because of racism.

---

Racism and the legacy of racism are not identical. Racism suggests the system itself is still actively attempting to ruin the lives of black americans, while the legacy of racism involves past systematic injustices leaving black americans at a disadvantage and unable to get by. Black neighborhood housing values arent marked low specifically because the residents are black, but because of violence and substandard housing which is a result of slavery in the past. These things arent the same

Shit being a certain way today because racism happened in the past is the same as shit being that way because of racism.

[Rojava Free State]

Congratulations, you've managed to argue that property in black neighbourhoods is valued less than comparable properties in less black neighbourhoods because of racism, but not because of racism.

---

Racism and the legacy of racism are not identical. Racism suggests the system itself is still actively attempting to ruin the lives of black americans, while the legacy of racism involves past systematic injustices leaving black americans at a disadvantage and unable to get by. Black neighborhood housing values arent marked low specifically because the residents are black, but because of violence and substandard housing which is a result of slavery in the past. These things arent the same

Shit being a certain way today because racism happened in the past is the same as shit being that way because of racism.

No it honestly isn't. There's a difference between past and present, and simply saying "racism causes low housing prices in places like baltimore" doesn't remotely grasp the complexity or nuance of the issue. That makes it seem like racism has a direct correlation to the low prices, when in reality the link is more indirect

[Right wing humour squad]

Perspectives: Homeowners have lost $156 billion by living in a 'black neighborhood'

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/06/perspect ... index.html


In the above article, CNN points to racism for the reason largely black communities live in homes that are worth half of what white communities own. They say that we must address the racism. However, I dont think racism has much to do with this.

I am a homeowner (white) in a largely black community in Memphis. From what I see, it is not that black people exist in a community that reduces the value, but the quality of the area. In general, black residents make far less than their white neighbors in other communities. So rather than supposedly racist lenders not valuing homes properly because they are black areas, I think it is mostly the income disparity between the races that has the most impact. The fact that the area is black is not why property values fall, but because as lower income people come, so does crime. Another thing for lower income families is that it becomes harder to take care of your home. Who cares, for instance, if the yard is looking bad and your driveway cracked if you can barely pay your mortgage?

Now, I'm not trying to be prejudiced against African Americans or the poor- the latter which, until very recently, I was a part of. What I believe happens is that, quite possibly due to a racist past, Blacks are simply less likely to make the amount of money to buy and maintain high value homes.

If CNN really wanted to show that a decline in property values in black communities is racist, they would need to do a proper study. Take communities of equal value and good areas and see if race is the major factor in property value decline. Or, do property values decline because the area itself declines, the schools reduce in quality, or the economy in that area tanks? There are many factors to property value and to assume race even is a factor, you need to isolate it and study it.

But let's assume that it is because of racism. CNN calls for us to address the racism. But how? We would once again have to isolate how racism is playing a part in 2018 and then tackle it. But instead of offering a solution, they just say its racist and walk away.

Ultimately, I dont think racism has anything to do with it and I dont think that simply comparing values in black and white communities while ignoring all other factors is a good way to look at this.

No
/thread