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Remembering December 7th, 1941

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The Untied Federation of Russia
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Remembering December 7th, 1941

Postby The Untied Federation of Russia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:29 pm

Now before you say "OMG IT'S NOT DECEMBER 7TH YET!" well calm down there a second and let me explain. Yes I know it isn't December 7th but wouldn't it be fun to discuss the events at Pearl Harbor?

Anyway for those who don't know American History, December 7th, 1941 was the day the Japanese bombed a U.S. Naval base in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Many American ships were sunk and around 2,335 people were killed during the attack. What was the result of this attack you may ask?

Well for starters it weakened the U.S. Pacific fleet and dragged America into World War 2 which led to Japanese-American citizens being sent to camps all across the United States.

So NSG what is your opinion on the Attack On Pearl Harbor? Do you think Japan was sucessful in knocking out the U.S. Pacific fleet or did they fail in doing so by dragging America into World War 2?

My opinion- I'm neutral on this because for one while Japan had a good plan it also resulted in their downfall by the end of the war. And the Japanese-American citizens were abused in the United States just because of their country of origin. Which I get America was worried about spies but they shouldn't have put Japanese-American citizens into camps.

But then again during times of war a country has to make the toughest choices when it comes to protecting the homefront.
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Engleberg
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Postby Engleberg » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:35 pm

May we never forget the Day of Infamy and those who died in this unprovoked attack. May Americans also remember those who died protecting our nation against the forces of evil during this trying time. I couldn’t imagine being stuck in one of the battleships that capsized after being torpedoed. Having nearly no way to get out because of that armour. All because of some radar operators/commanders who thought it was just a glitch.

Hopefully we will not have a repeat in 2041 of either WWII or WWI. God Bless America.

EDIT: read the OP a bit more.

No, I do not see Pearl Harbour being successful for the Japanese. They failed to destroy the US aircraft carriers, which would prove vital in Midway. Destroying older battleships might’ve seemed crucial to the Japanese, who still followed the B.B. doctrine, but it did little to nothing but anger the US into joining the war and activating its war machine. The Japanese would’ve had to attack the US eventually, but this wasn’t the right time or place and only spelled their fate.
Last edited by Engleberg on Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Teachian
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Postby Teachian » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:36 pm

It was a pretty shocking and ballsy move. Though if I remember correctly, didn’t they fail to deal any real damage to the station’s infrastructure (at least when it came to fuel) and missed all the U.S. aircraft carriers (who were out on a training exercise)?

Not to say that it wasn’t a good move, or that we don’t have the benefit of hindsight, but the surprise attack mostly ended up angering America more than crippling it. Though, in all fairness, I highly doubt there was any scenario Japan wouldn’t have hard to wear the U.S. down before they gave up, which means it was a lost cause from the beginning.
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Steampunk World War 1
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Postby Steampunk World War 1 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:38 pm

In before the "FDR DID PEARL HARBOR!" posts.

I happen to be half Japanese my grandfather was in California when had to go to a camp. From what he said it was just a average day except the camps were in poor condition and the tight spaces in some of the rooms.

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Trinadaed
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Postby Trinadaed » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:38 pm

The Untied Federation of Russia wrote:Now before you say "OMG IT'S NOT DECEMBER 7TH YET!" well calm down there a second and let me explain. Yes I know it isn't December 7th but wouldn't it be fun to discuss the events at Pearl Harbor?

Anyway for those who don't know American History, December 7th, 1941 was the day the Japanese bombed a U.S. Naval base in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Many American ships were sunk and around 2,335 people were killed during the attack. What was the result of this attack you may ask?

Well for starters it weakened the U.S. Pacific fleet and dragged America into World War 2 which led to Japanese-American citizens being sent to camps all across the United States.

So NSG what is your opinion on the Attack On Pearl Harbor? Do you think Japan was sucessful in knocking out the U.S. Pacific fleet or did they fail in doing so by dragging America into World War 2?

My opinion- I'm neutral on this because for one while Japan had a good plan it also resulted in their downfall by the end of the war. And the Japanese-American citizens were abused in the United States just because of their country of origin. Which I get America was worried about spies but they shouldn't have put Japanese-American citizens into camps.

But then again during times of war a country has to make the toughest choices when it comes to protecting the homefront.


Don't forget Super Smash Bros Ultimate comes out that day


Also Japan failed due to the fact they got absolutely nuked and surrendered, and that was by the U.S
Last edited by Trinadaed on Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Steampunk World War 1
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Postby Steampunk World War 1 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:53 pm

Engleberg wrote:May we never forget the Day of Infamy and those who died in this unprovoked attack. May Americans also remember those who died protecting our nation against the forces of evil during this trying time. I couldn’t imagine being stuck in one of the battleships that capsized after being torpedoed. Having nearly no way to get out because of that armour. All because of some radar operators/commanders who thought it was just a glitch.

Hopefully we will not have a repeat in 2041 of either WWII or WWI. God Bless America.

EDIT: read the OP a bit more.

No, I do not see Pearl Harbour being successful for the Japanese. They failed to destroy the US aircraft carriers, which would prove vital in Midway. Destroying older battleships might’ve seemed crucial to the Japanese, who still followed the B.B. doctrine, but it did little to nothing but anger the US into joining the war and activating its war machine. The Japanese would’ve had to attack the US eventually, but this wasn’t the right time or place and only spelled their fate.


Yeah Japan had a good plan but they ruined it by failing to hit those Aircraft Carriers (Which like Teachian said were on training exercises) Even if they some how did destroy the aircraft carriers I'm pretty sure America would've used spare ones in their Atlantic fleet and sent them over to the Pacific Ocean.

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Earth Luna and Mars
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Postby Earth Luna and Mars » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:05 pm

The attack on Pearl Harbor mostly hurt Japan than the United States in the long run if you ask me.
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The Untied Federation of Russia
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Postby The Untied Federation of Russia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:37 pm

Teachian wrote:It was a pretty shocking and ballsy move. Though if I remember correctly, didn’t they fail to deal any real damage to the station’s infrastructure (at least when it came to fuel) and missed all the U.S. aircraft carriers (who were out on a training exercise)?

Not to say that it wasn’t a good move, or that we don’t have the benefit of hindsight, but the surprise attack mostly ended up angering America more than crippling it. Though, in all fairness, I highly doubt there was any scenario Japan wouldn’t have hard to wear the U.S. down before they gave up, which means it was a lost cause from the beginning.


From what I know Japan did fail to destroy any infrastructure at Pearl Harbor which is how the U.S. still had a strong Pacific Fleet.
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US-SSR
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Postby US-SSR » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:25 pm

One wonders how the Japanese attack would have played out had they not violated international law by failing to inform the US of their declaration of war before launching it, not to mention their attacks on UK forces in Malaya, Singapore and Hong Kong. Blinded by military ambition, the Japanese High Command miscalculated badly and brought the combined might of the Allied forces down on their own heads, leading to inevitable and inexorable defeat. Those responsible paid the ultimate price. May the world nevermore see such slaughter, and may warmongers, war criminals, torturers and violent nationalists, wherever they are, meet the same fate as Tojo, Muto, Kimura, Itagaki, Hirota, Doihara and Matsui.

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:27 pm

FDR did Pearl Harbor
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Steampunk World War 1
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Postby Steampunk World War 1 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:38 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:FDR did Pearl Harbor


Oh God damn it XD

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Dark Socialism
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Postby Dark Socialism » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:40 pm

Ey that's my birthday
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:42 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:FDR did Pearl Harbor

I'm pretty sure it was Churchill and Mao actually.
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Steampunk World War 1
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Postby Steampunk World War 1 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:48 pm

US-SSR wrote:One wonders how the Japanese attack would have played out had they not violated international law by failing to inform the US of their declaration of war before launching it, not to mention their attacks on UK forces in Malaya, Singapore and Hong Kong. Blinded by military ambition, the Japanese High Command miscalculated badly and brought the combined might of the Allied forces down on their own heads, leading to inevitable and inexorable defeat. Those responsible paid the ultimate price. May the world nevermore see such slaughter, and may warmongers, war criminals, torturers and violent nationalists, wherever they are, meet the same fate as Tojo, Muto, Kimura, Itagaki, Hirota, Doihara and Matsui.

(Image)


I'm pretty sure International Law wasn't a thing during World War 2 since both sides did some war crimes. Correct me if I am wrong by the way.

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The Untied Federation of Russia
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Postby The Untied Federation of Russia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:57 pm

Steampunk World War 1 wrote:
US-SSR wrote:One wonders how the Japanese attack would have played out had they not violated international law by failing to inform the US of their declaration of war before launching it, not to mention their attacks on UK forces in Malaya, Singapore and Hong Kong. Blinded by military ambition, the Japanese High Command miscalculated badly and brought the combined might of the Allied forces down on their own heads, leading to inevitable and inexorable defeat. Those responsible paid the ultimate price. May the world nevermore see such slaughter, and may warmongers, war criminals, torturers and violent nationalists, wherever they are, meet the same fate as Tojo, Muto, Kimura, Itagaki, Hirota, Doihara and Matsui.

(Image)


I'm pretty sure International Law wasn't a thing during World War 2 since both sides did some war crimes. Correct me if I am wrong by the way.


International Laws were still around during the time of World War 2 its just that both sides broke some of those laws.

Like how the U.S. imprison Japanese-American citizens into camps after the attacks on Pearl Harbor.
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Steampunk World War 1
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Postby Steampunk World War 1 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:59 pm

The Untied Federation of Russia wrote:
Steampunk World War 1 wrote:
I'm pretty sure International Law wasn't a thing during World War 2 since both sides did some war crimes. Correct me if I am wrong by the way.


International Laws were still around during the time of World War 2 its just that both sides broke some of those laws.

Like how the U.S. imprison Japanese-American citizens into camps after the attacks on Pearl Harbor.


Ah, okay

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Postby Unstoppable Empire of Doom » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:00 pm

It is a good thing that FDR didn't listen to the incompetant British generals. They spent weeks arguing that the US should anchor their entire fleet in the orient to protect singipore. This was prior to the attack on pearl harbor and Churchill overruled them figuring it was more important to have the US on their side than argue areas of responsibility. If the US had acquiesced December 7th would be the day the US lost it's entire Navy.

Japan didn't stand a chance. At best it was looking for a draw and a free hand in China. This is why the Europe First policy was adopted by allied warplanners at that very same meeting.
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US-SSR
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Postby US-SSR » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:01 pm

Steampunk World War 1 wrote:
US-SSR wrote:One wonders how the Japanese attack would have played out had they not violated international law by failing to inform the US of their declaration of war before launching it, not to mention their attacks on UK forces in Malaya, Singapore and Hong Kong. Blinded by military ambition, the Japanese High Command miscalculated badly and brought the combined might of the Allied forces down on their own heads, leading to inevitable and inexorable defeat. Those responsible paid the ultimate price. May the world nevermore see such slaughter, and may warmongers, war criminals, torturers and violent nationalists, wherever they are, meet the same fate as Tojo, Muto, Kimura, Itagaki, Hirota, Doihara and Matsui.

(Image)


I'm pretty sure International Law wasn't a thing during World War 2 since both sides did some war crimes. Correct me if I am wrong by the way.


OK. Japan was a state party to the 1907 Hague Convention Relative to the Opening of Hostilities which required states to notify each other before the commencement of war. Just because states did war crimes in WWII (and today), just because some war crimes were (and are) not punished, does not mean international law is not a thing. To be fair, the formal charges against the Japanese defendants were waging aggressive war, not necessarily failing to declare war, though that fact didn't exactly help them avoid the noose.
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Steampunk World War 1
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Postby Steampunk World War 1 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:10 pm

US-SSR wrote:
Steampunk World War 1 wrote:
I'm pretty sure International Law wasn't a thing during World War 2 since both sides did some war crimes. Correct me if I am wrong by the way.


OK. Japan was a state party to the 1907 Hague Convention Relative to the Opening of Hostilities which required states to notify each other before the commencement of war. Just because states did war crimes in WWII (and today), just because some war crimes were (and are) not punished, does not mean international law is not a thing. To be fair, the formal charges against the Japanese defendants were waging aggressive war, not necessarily failing to declare war, though that fact didn't exactly help them avoid the noose.


Alright I get it now thanks for clearing that up.

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Postby The National Salvation Front for Russia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:32 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoEb03tzwxs

Tojo was a bit naughty in regards to Pearl Harbour.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:10 am

:roll: Ah shoot, not this old saw again.

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Reikoku
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Postby Reikoku » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:16 am

The attack was a gambit by the military in response to the Hull Note, one which did not pay off. But to pretend it had no meaning or motive is rather silly.
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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:24 am

While I still mourn the loss of many and for this surprise attack, it actually could have been worse.

A message (basically an advice to fly recon to check on the Japanese offensive) was supposed to be translated and relayed to the Navy, but it was delayed and thus the Navy didn't know that the attack was going to happen. Had this message been translated real-time and sent to the Navy, there was a good chance that they would sail out into the sea only to be relentlessly attacked and suffered more casualties.

Remember that at those days, the ships weren't equipped to handle air attacks, as seen by HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse being sunk in open water and hundreds dead. So, in a way, the Pearl Harbour attack was slightly "better" because they were still in the harbour itself; the ships were salvaged, the casualties were kept low, and the Navy was ready to kick ass in a matter of 24 hours.

There is a huge difference between ships getting sunk in the harbor (where crews were easily rescued and six of the ships saved) versus out in the open ocean (where those same ships would have wound up on the ocean floor, along with the 20,000 sailors on board).

Admiral Chester Nimitz: "It was God's mercy that our fleet was in Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941."
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Nazis in Space
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Postby Nazis in Space » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:31 am

Three words.

Tora.

Tora.

Tora.

With this out of the way, I'm surprised that I've never seen comments along the lines of, let's say, 1st Rabbinic Strike Group. Homophone to Torah and all that.

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Postby Cetacea » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:34 am

Engleberg wrote:May we never forget the Day of Infamy and those who died in this unprovoked attack. May Americans also remember those who died protecting our nation against the forces of evil during this trying time.


The bombing of Pearl Harbour was not unprovoked, the US Navy North Pacific Squadron had been actively extending towards Japan since before it annexed Midway Island in 1867 - named Midway specifically because it was the halfway point between the US and Japan.
US interest had long interferred with Japanese trade and diplomatic relationships with the Kingdom of Hawaii culmination ultimately with the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy during which a US naval vessel had canons aimed at Honululu and its marines marched up to the royal palace. Pearl Harbour was fortified in 1899 following the annexation of Hawaii specifically in response to war in South East Asia (especially Phillipines) in order to become the main base of operations in war against Japan.

Of course the Japanese were equally dickish with their ambitions for an Asian empire as seen in the Invasion of Manchuria and Indochina and its Southern Doctrine, Japans whole intention when it bombed Pearl Harbour was to prevent the US from interferring with its actions in South East Asia

No, I do not see Pearl Harbour being successful for the Japanese. They failed to destroy the US aircraft carriers, which would prove vital in Midway. Destroying older battleships might’ve seemed crucial to the Japanese, who still followed the B.B. doctrine, but it did little to nothing but anger the US into joining the war and activating its war machine. The Japanese would’ve had to attack the US eventually, but this wasn’t the right time or place and only spelled their fate.


one of the ironies is that if Japan had declared war before bombing its likely that the US ships would have been sortied out to deeper water and thus more effectively sunk and made unrecoverable. That would have been a greater blow which may have worked to better cripple the Pacific fleet.

Japan in targeting the Battleships also failed to hit repair yards and refueling stations and also did not sink the Aircraft carriers, which is what the US relied upon when they responded

the rest of course is history

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