Workers Visas vs. Immigration Visas

[Rio Cana]

Seems Japan is on the verge of passing, if not already, a new law which would create a fifth visa category. This visa would be for low skilled workers. It would be for five year, unless renewed, and no family members allowed. Another category inside this one would allow more skilled people to bring family members but they do not seem to be making this a priority which means it will be tough to get. In the longterm, the worker with this type of visa would also not be able to stay in Japan.

Read this - https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/ ... -s2x16Z3IU

And there is a short video on this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrsjY9NJSbI

Some think the EU. and even US should follow this Japanese model. Instead of bringing in workers via making them part of the nation (like the EU.) why not just bring in workers when needed and with the clear expectation that any worker allowed in could not bring in there families. And that they could not remain in the nation after there work contract was over unless renewed. With the opposition to people migrating, I think this would be a good plan when it comes to needing low skilled workers. The host nations gets the workers they need without them becoming part of that society and the worker gets to work and send the money back home. Of course, you must need to watchout for abuse of this system/workers abused. So what do you think NS.

[Costa Fierro]

This is a short term solution to a long term problem. Japan's demographic issues are institutional and cannot be solved by hiring temporary workers.

[Rio Cana]

This is a short term solution to a long term problem. Japan's demographic issues are institutional and cannot be solved by hiring temporary workers.

Some say a smaller population in Japan makes for more individual wealth per Capita.

[Tehrangeles]

This is a short term solution to a long term problem. Japan's demographic issues are institutional and cannot be solved by hiring temporary workers.

I agree with that statement. With this model Japan will be forced to bring in more and more temporary migrants until it becomes politically untenable to continue. That will cause them to switch to the EU/US model.

[Risottia]

Instead of bringing in workers via making them part of the nation (like the EU.)

Seems you have some weird ideas about immigration to EU countries.
1.The EU doesn't have a common immigration policy. That's actually where a lot of the mess comes from.
2.Immigrants don't become "part of the nation" in EU countries. You get citizenship if you apply for it, and you can apply for it after years of legal residence and work.
3.As for voting, non-EU citizens legally residing in EU countries can vote only in local elections, that is not for the lawmaking bodies.

[Diopolis]

Hahaha they actually think that's going to work?
Japan just needs to have some more babies.

[Trumptonium1]

Low-skilled visas are a good idea. They should be temporary (I think 5 years is too much), non-renewable, a maximum of say two in a lifetime and definitely no extension of courtesy to wider family. No extension unless marrying a citizen and increasing one's skills and employment prospects significantly since entry with probably a minimum income threshold. Let them be exempt for income tax but stop any form of remittances. They can take what they have when the visa expires, or assets cam be seized if they overstayed and/or broke rules. Have a quota so visa holders never exceed ~2% of residents in any administrative area.

Work with businesses to know what they want to stop them from going bankrupt but otherwise let wages rise organically from supply and demand.

[NERVUN]

This is a short term solution to a long term problem. Japan's demographic issues are institutional and cannot be solved by hiring temporary workers.

Some say a smaller population in Japan makes for more individual wealth per Capita.

And some say that having your population centers collapse due to lack of population, your health and social security systems collapse due to lack of younger workers, and your economy collapse because you lack people to work is probably not a good thing.

This is Abe's attempt to get around his far right base which hates the very idea of immigration, but trying to supply the bodies desperately needed by Japan Inc.

Honestly, I doubt it will work. They've done this before, and they've either set the bar so fricken high that NO ONE can pass into the system, or they ignore humans being humans (I.e. finding ways around the system) and try to whistle past the graveyard. It's pretty laughable when the cabinet makes statements such as 'blue collar jobs should only go to those with a college degree' as if someone who does HAVE a college degree would be content with a blue collar job.

That's the problem with this kind of system, those who feel the economic pressure to move are not likely to be the ones with the full skills, advanced degrees, etc. They're making bank as is in their original area and are unlikely to want to move. Especially not temporarily like this. Pretty much it's a 'I want to have my cake and eat it too' approach, which is unlikely to gather much in the way of numbers.

[Jello Biafra]

The host nations gets the workers they need without them becoming part of that society

This is way to Apartheid-esque to me. No thank you.

[Diopolis]

Some say a smaller population in Japan makes for more individual wealth per Capita.

And some say that having your population centers collapse due to lack of population, your health and social security systems collapse due to lack of younger workers, and your economy collapse because you lack people to work is probably not a good thing.

This is Abe's attempt to get around his far right base which hates the very idea of immigration, but trying to supply the bodies desperately needed by Japan Inc.

Honestly, I doubt it will work. They've done this before, and they've either set the bar so fricken high that NO ONE can pass into the system, or they ignore humans being humans (I.e. finding ways around the system) and try to whistle past the graveyard. It's pretty laughable when the cabinet makes statements such as 'blue collar jobs should only go to those with a college degree' as if someone who does HAVE a college degree would be content with a blue collar job.

That's the problem with this kind of system, those who feel the economic pressure to move are not likely to be the ones with the full skills, advanced degrees, etc. They're making bank as is in their original area and are unlikely to want to move. Especially not temporarily like this. Pretty much it's a 'I want to have my cake and eat it too' approach, which is unlikely to gather much in the way of numbers.

Or as if a college degree has any relevancy to a blue collar job.

[Page]

I really would just like to see open borders all over the world.

[Olerand]

We had this in Europe. This is how we started the migration patterns of the late 20th century. Japan isn't inventing anything new, it has taken a European policy from the 1950s.

I really would just like to see open borders all over the world.

Let's not.

[Valgora]

I really would just like to see open borders all over the world.

I disagree.

You can't have open borders if borders don't exist.

[New haven america]

We had this in Europe. This is how we started the migration patterns of the late 20th century. Japan isn't inventing anything new, it has taken a European policy from the 1950s.

I really would just like to see open borders all over the world.

Let's not.

No, let's.

[Olerand]

We had this in Europe. This is how we started the migration patterns of the late 20th century. Japan isn't inventing anything new, it has taken a European policy from the 1950s.


Let's not.

No, let's.

No, let's not. If we decide all borders are open in 2018, by 2022 all of Europe will be governed by the radical right. To me, that's not a fortunate possibility. From an American perspective, America already being there, it makes no difference.
To us, it does.

[New haven america]

Hahaha they actually think that's going to work?
Japan just needs to have some more babies.

As if that's gonna happen anytime soon...

[New haven america]

No, let's.

No, let's not. If we decide all borders are open in 2018, by 2022 all of Europe will be governed by the radical right.

You are aware that wanting to close off and restrict freedom of movement is already a tenant of the radical right?

So, in order to fight the radical right, you want to become or work with the radical right? Makes sense.

[Olerand]

No, let's not. If we decide all borders are open in 2018, by 2022 all of Europe will be governed by the radical right.

You are aware that wanting to close off and restrict movement is already an tenant of the radical right?

So, in order to fight the radical right, you want to become the radical right? Makes sense.

Well considering that that is the normal condition of every State of humanity so far, including the Soviet Union, Communist Cuba, Maoist China and others... That would make all human States in history radical right. Which is one way one can define this.

It would be factually incorrect, but it is a possibility.

[New haven america]

You are aware that wanting to close off and restrict movement is already an tenant of the radical right?

So, in order to fight the radical right, you want to become the radical right? Makes sense.

Well considering that that is the normal condition of every government of humanity so far

You are so fucking wrong it's not even funny.

Actually, compared to most time periods, even the laxest immigration laws today would be considered extreme in pre-1920's/1950's non-ethnocentric society. Hell, the US and EU countries' immigration laws would be considered Draconian back then, while the USSR's, China's, Japan's, North Korea's, etc... immigration laws would be unfathomable.

The current state of immigration is a very recent occurance and was created out of thing like fear of The Other, or the belief in ethnocentric ideals like the blood lineage and other bullshit like that.

[Nouveau Yathrib]

I really would just like to see open borders all over the world.

I too want to see a world where the income/development gap between the Global North and the Global South no longer exists. Doesn't mean it'll happen anytime soon.

[New haven america]

I really would just like to see open borders all over the world.

I too want to see a world where the income/development gap between the Global North and the Global South no longer exists. Doesn't mean it'll happen anytime soon.

I want to see a world where humans stop being dicks.

Yeah, that ain't even gonna happen.

[Novus America]

No, let's not. If we decide all borders are open in 2018, by 2022 all of Europe will be governed by the radical right.

You are aware that wanting to close off and restrict freedom of movement is already a tenant of the radical right?

So, in order to fight the radical right, you want to become or work with the radical right? Makes sense.

Every country has some restrictions on international movement of people.
No country has completely open borders and open elections for everyone in the world.

Those that do have open borders have them with only certain other countries.

Wanting reasonable restrictions on immigration is not necessarily far right.

Of course what the restrictions should be is a matter of dispute because within controlled migration there are infinite possibile permutations. Deciding what the restrictions should be is the tricky part as there is no universal agreement on what the restrictions should exactly be.

[Olerand]

Well considering that that is the normal condition of every government of humanity so far

You are so fucking wrong it's not even funny.

Actually, compared to most time periods, even the laxest immigration laws today would be considered extreme in pre-1920's/1950's non-ethnocentric society. Hell, the US and EU countries' immigration laws would be considered Draconian back then, while the USSR's, China's, Japan's, North Korea's, etc... immigration laws would be unfathomable.

The current state of immigration is a very recent occurance and was created out of fear of The Other, and belief in ethnocentric ideals like the blood lineage and other bullshit like that.

Right. There has never been a State that has renounced control of its own borders. The State apparatus hasn't always been capable of patrolling its borders, which it cannot do perfectly even today, but never has one renounced it.
Do you contend that, or am I so fucking wrong as well, and how funny is it?

You are aware that wanting to close off and restrict freedom of movement is already a tenant of the radical right?

So, in order to fight the radical right, you want to become or work with the radical right? Makes sense.

Every country has some restrictions on international movement of people.
No country has completely open borders and open elections for everyone in the world.

Those that do have open borders have them with only certain other countries.

Wanting reasonable restrictions on immigration is not necessarily far right.

Of course what the restrictions should be is a matter of dispute because within controlled migration there are infinite possibile permutations. Deciding what the restrictions should be is the tricky part as there is no universal agreement on what the restrictions should exactly be.

There has never been a State that renounced control of its borders. Evidently, ancient and medieval States, and modern States pre-modern technology didn't have drones or bio-metric passports to control their borders, but never has one renounced control.

I thought when I said that that is the condition of humanity, that is what would be understood. Not that medieval knights were patrolling the borders of the HRE as American drones do the Mexican border.

Silly me.

[New haven america]

You are so fucking wrong it's not even funny.

Actually, compared to most time periods, even the laxest immigration laws today would be considered extreme in pre-1920's/1950's non-ethnocentric society. Hell, the US and EU countries' immigration laws would be considered Draconian back then, while the USSR's, China's, Japan's, North Korea's, etc... immigration laws would be unfathomable.

The current state of immigration is a very recent occurance and was created out of fear of The Other, and belief in ethnocentric ideals like the blood lineage and other bullshit like that.

1. Right. There has never been a State that has renounced control of its own borders.
2.Do you contend that, or am I so fucking wrong as well, and how how funny is it?

1. Actually, nearly every country in the world (Barring a few exceptions, like Japan) had open borders before the 1920's, the vast majority never really worried about border control as almost everywhere had complete freedom of movement between nations.
2. I mean, you are fucking wrong when it comes to this topic in general. You didn't even believe your own country historically had Jus Soli or open borders. But no, the uniting blood of the French people is totally a real tangible thing and not some stupid 1950's ethnocentric drivel.

[Kubra]

Simple economics, folks: what you don't produce domestically you must import, and well I mean ain't no babies being produced